Flight school in Vancouver BC

[moocow]

And we have arrived at the basic problem of flight training. How exactly does one student run into a decent instructor? Word of mouth doesn't work that well if the turn over rate at flight schools are high. High hours instructors doesn't mean they can teach and we all know that from going thru high school / college.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think word of mouth actually works well. I think if you spend an afternoon hanging around the ZBB coffee shop and talk to folks you would start to get an idea of who you might want to train with. I still find it amazing the number of folks who spend days researching the best deal for their cell phone plan yet just go and plunk down thousands of dollars at an FTU with no real reseach of their options.

[akoch]

" Personally I think the C 150/152 make is best of the commonly available trainers and I do not particularly care for the Katana series or Cherokees."

BPF, could you elaborate on this topic? I have no experience whatsoever realistically. Only one flight on the 152, and can't see myself flying anything similar ever again. On the other hand, I had very exciting time on the Diamonds. It makes you come back and fly again and again, and enjoy it (as oppose to a Cessna). The reasons being the subjective feel and look of a more real airplain, control responsiveness (the Cessna just wondered about, uncertain, unresponsive and slow controls with lots of free play). But you obviously have very different idea. Could you tell be bit more on this? I don't want to fly anything Cessna 152-like again voluntarily, but I would like to understand...

Thank you,
Alex

[OntheNumbers]

" Personally I think the C 150/152 make is best of the commonly available trainers and I do not particularly care for the Katana series or Cherokees."

BPF, could you elaborate on this topic? I have no experience whatsoever realistically. Only one flight on the 152, and can't see myself flying anything similar ever again. On the other hand, I had very exciting time on the Diamonds. It makes you come back and fly again and again, and enjoy it (as oppose to a Cessna). The reasons being the subjective feel and look of a more real airplain, control responsiveness (the Cessna just wondered about, uncertain, unresponsive and slow controls with lots of free play). But you obviously have very different idea. Could you tell be bit more on this? I don't want to fly anything Cessna 152-like again voluntarily, but I would like to understand...

Thank you,
Alex

Hi Alex,

I think you might have gotten into a below-average specimen of a 152 - either that or the sloppy control feel was because you were flying it close to the stall

I regularly fly 172's which are big and roomy inside and have about as much sex appeal as a 70's-era chevy. Occasionally I get the urge to fly the 152 precisely because it's 2-seat (read cozy) and has a lot more of a sportscar feel compared to the 172, and I think someone else made that point on this thread as well. The big problem for me is I'm a relatively big guy and can only take petite attractive young women as passengers because of their smaller stature. Going anywhere in one of those things is only practical if the combined weight of the two passengers is low enough to let you take on a realistic load of fuel. But for a fun outing around the patch it's a gas (pun intended) - and cheaper than its bigger sibling.

I wouldn't discount 152s (or other Cessnas) yet, although you haven't said exactly the reason you didn't like it. My advice would be to fly as many types as you possibly can because you will learn something about flying from all of them. I'd say each type is optimized for a particular type of mission, so in the long run you'll need to decide for yourself why you are doing this and pick a type that is suitable.

Advice, though, is often worth what you pay for it

I agree with a previous poster, the instructor will make a far bigger difference to any training you do than the choice of aircraft. I've had some good ones and some bad ones; one thing to look out for is a high rate of churn (happened to me). I ended up going through about 4 instructors before I got my PPL because they'd leave for greener pastures before I was done.

All the best to you!

OTN

[FlaplessDork]

If you're going Commercial, no one cares what single engine airplanes you flew. After awhile you'll think that all single engine airplanes suck. Personally I think Diamond's suck more than the rest but I really don't care that much, they are all the same to me now. If I could do it all over again, I'd do it on a taildragger.

[akoch]

No, I am not looking to get the Commercial license. IFR/PPL maybe dual engine is as far as I would eventually take it. The mission for me is strictly private flying for fun while going places. I.e. flying places across North America, around Europe. Aerobatics would also be super cool but a long ways away for now.

Yes, trying and learning a number of different types is very appealing. That's the proper way of forming your own opinion I realize this. But I'm not attracted to anything larger than say Piper Mirage. It would be as large I am inclined to go. Anything larger also just seems prohibitive cost-wise. At least this is my impression so far.

As for a Cessna... I"m a computer/electronics engineer guy, I just can't see a plane like this having place in the 21st century. Certainly not without a major major redesign. Something like Diamond looks less outdated, so in comparison it is not too bad. I have not gotten used to instantly being transfered back in time a good half-a-century when I come to CZBB But I'm learning it.

PS This is how it is seen through the eyes of a complete new-bee and outsider...

[moocow]

If you think newer is better then I suggest you read up about the Beavers, Otters, and Buffaloes.

From your description of your first experience of C152 and I have to agree that you may been flying a poor example. Even a C172 well react quickly to control inputs or are you expecting the plane to react like a car? May be you appreciate it more if you're a mechanical engineer? There's a reason why we start to think the Cirrus is the new doctor killer. Best plane money can buy with high performance compare to the old Cessna, Piper, and some degree Diamonds and still dropping like flies.

[akoch]

Even a C172 well react quickly to control inputs or are you expecting the plane to react like a car? May be you appreciate it more if you're a mechanical engineer?

Actually yes, I would expect it to react like a car. I'm by far not a fanboy of Diamond (sorry if I came across like one). But the Diamond does react like a car, very appropriate comparison. But we are complicating things really. Subjectively, without rationalizing too much - I would not want to learn on Cessna if I can help. If there is no other way, well I will swallow it. Still, I am curious to understand why others would prefer a 152.

I do not think that new is always better than old. An old Stradivari would be at least as good as most modern instruments. But the Leonardo's chopper would not be as good as a modern day Eurocopter.

[modi13]

But the Leonardo's chopper would not be as good as a modern day Eurocopter.

Airplanes haven't changed that much in 30 years. Controls operated by cables, instruments operated by air pressure, reciprocating engines with fixed-pitch propellors, etc. The only thing that's improved significantly is avionics, which are easily replaced, and in most cases have been. For that matter, the only major difference between a 152 and a Diamond is the use of carbon fibre instead of aluminum for the skin. If you think that's an issue, take a look at the year-old, fabric-covered Citabria a couple of schools down; it handles better than a 152, and flying it was among the most fun I've had in an aircraft with my pants on. Besides that, I'm not certain, but I believe the control surfaces on the Katana are smaller than the 152, and would therefore handle more sluggishly. If you're concerned about age, consider all the aircraft from 50 years ago which are still operated by major carriers, like the 727 and Convair 580. An aircraft that's properly maintained should remain in service indefinitely. One that's five years old and has poor maintenance will be in far worse condition than one that's 30 years old and has regular, high-quality maintenance.

[SkyWolfe]

Hey everyone! I can pull my head out of the books to make some replies to this thread.

A. Someone here is lieing. Period. Oh... right... welcome to aviation.

B. Making a choice about a good school comes down to many factors mentioned here.

My best advice... If you can, take a fam flight at each school. Look at the airplanes, talk to the instructors, and just get a general feel for each school. This is a very personal choice you must make on your own.

I have attended every school in CZBB except Montair.

I have nothing but good things to say about SLA and CFC. And if you have any questions (anyone reading this) about these schools (except Montair) I would be more then happy to answer them. I do know that the DA42 fell through the cracks on more then one occasion, which is not the school, but its parent company, which has honestly agreed to go ahead with a 42. No student has ever been "strung along" and stopped from attending any other school, SLA encourages looking at other schools for the twin time. The fleet is not all glass cockpit, only the 40.

Michael P. runs things differently, however, I have not ever once seem him behave in an unprofessional manner in front of anyone. He's British, and maybe things can be lost in translation... He isn't like the stuck up folk I have met plenty of times in aviation, and he isn't about to give you advice and secretly charge you for it. You think I am making those lines up? Not likely.

But hell, different strokes for different folks right? What fits YOU and ONLY YOU is the best school.

Cheers,

Wolfie

[modi13]

[H]ow many students and instructors have they been stringing along with that instead of letting them advance their training and careers with another school?

See that bit of punctuation at the end? Usually the interrogative indicates that the poser of the question is unaware of the answer. Even if he's open about the issues with the DA42, it doesn't change the fact that he posted an ad containing a picture of an aircraft he doesn't have. Why couldn't I put one out with a picture of a King Air and a byline that says that I provide airline pilot training? The implication is that I possess such an aircraft to provide the training, and that's simply dishonest. In every encounter I've had with MichaelP, both in person and otherwise, he's been nothing but unprofessional and disingenuous. I can't speak for how he runs his school, but from what I've seen I want nothing to do with that operation, which is to say nothing about maintenance, efficiency, etc.; nothing would drive me away from aviation faster than attending a school run by an individual like that.

[SkyWolfe]

Yes, I agree the picture of the 42 is misleading... As for the question you posed, I was simply providing an answer which is to the best of my knowledge.

Cheers,

wolfie

[Big Pistons Forever]

That's my first post, but could not help it. I checked the Pacific Flying Club, did a fam flight and decided to pass on it. Reasons being (may be unrelated, so check it our yourself too) - it ws a very young instructor (200 hours), and subsequently you could tell he was not quite sure what to tell or teach you, and an old old (and dare I say crappy) Cessna 152. It just did not feel like flying, more like that collection of old outdated parts put together, just did not belong to the skies. I almost dropped the whole idea then.

Then I check the See Land Air - absolutely different experience altogetjer. Simply awesome planes (Diamond DA-20 and DA-40), my fam flight was the most rewarding experience (with MichaelP is an exceptional pilot). And I joined the school gladly, especially after experiencing this 30-year old Cessna 152 at previous school. But studying at the SeaLandAir proved to be a spotty experience at best. Most likely I was not just compatible with my instructor (would not name him), he would be late - easily 45 minutes or more for a lesson, or would cancel it at all because he did not feel like flying that day, or was tired, or did not have lunch, or need to worry about something else etc. You would drive 1.5 hours to the airport for the lesson, then to learn that your instructor just was not in the mood that day. All after waiting for 1 hour plus, then told to go home, no excuse no nothing. And that happened more than 7 times in my only 25 hours of flying. Alternatively when I would almost make this instructor to go with me he would 'pay back' in making the lesson rather miserable, which is quite miserable - OK, I am an incompetent pilot. And what is the most amazing this instructor has a wealth of knowledge, decades of experience, highly developed skills, and one could learn a lot (to say the least) form him. Very competent pilot. I can only assume I was a bad student, but it leaves a bad taste in you mouth.

Then I had to switch for another instructor, a very nice lady there. I learnt the most from her, and she has been extremely generous, helpful, and knowledgeable. I can't see a better instructor anywhere to be perfectly honest. At the end I sort of stopped taking lessons and even considering a different school, all because of my bitter experience prior there. But I don't think you can find better airplanes anywhere in Vancouver. So may be just take the younger instructors there and you may enjoy it a lot.

I might be looking to switch the school. I wish somebody else had the Diamonds here.

So this is my 2 cents....



Cheers,
Alex

I am somewhat puzzled by your comments. You found an instructor that worked for you and were flying the airplane you wanted. It would seem that it was a personality clash on the ground that is the issue. While every student should have an expectation of proper treatment from school staff there has to be a bit of give and take on both sides. I have to wonder if your expectations were totally realistic. The bottom line is SLA has clean well maintained airplanes and a reputation of producing good pilots. Those facts allready puts them above many schools.

[akoch]

And you might be totally right. I have never experienced any other flight schools. It is likely that if I go around I find that the experience there is worse.

"It would seem that it was a personality clash on the ground that is the issue. While every student should have an expectation of proper treatment from school staff there has to be a bit of give and take on both sides. I have to wonder if your expectations were totally realistic."

There is no personality 'clash', as far as I can tell. My expectations are quite simple, may be comment on wether these are 'realistic':
- you show up 30 minute to 15 minutes prior to the lesson and walk around the plane (expecting that the plane is available at least 5-10 minutes prior to the start of the lesson)
- you expect your instructor to be available at scheduled time and work with you

Now my unrealistic part of my expectations:
- I do not expect the instructor to keep you waiting why he is chatting with his friends, or having a bowl of soup, or just being mad at somebody or something for 45 minutes past the class start time. And then after one hour plus waiting tell you that he has another lesson scheduled shortly and there is not enough time to go
- I do not expect it to happen semi-regularly (over 5 times in my only 25 hours of flying, 10 hours out of which actually with a totally awesome instructor)
- I do not necessarily expect my instructor to repeatedly tell me about my money, complain about low pay and difficult life etc. I mean I will be happy to chat about this after the lesson in a pub, I can offer a side job if this is really what one is looking for etc. But not while I am trying to learn to fly... It is not an investment for me, I am looking to expand into the 'new' and stretch my abilities a bit.

" The bottom line is SLA has clean well maintained airplanes and a reputation of producing good pilots. Those facts allready puts them above many schools."
Absolutely agree. I love the planes, and I am very impressed with two other instructors I flu with there.

You will say I should just ignore it, get over it and continue on. You'd be right. It is somewhat more emotional than necessary but I'm human and I see flying as fun. I don't do it for work reasons.

[MichaelP]

I do agree that DA42 ad was deceptive, but you can not know how close we were to getting that aeroplane.
There's a lot of disappointment in this business.
We have a superb DA42 FTD and if it was packaged with the aeroplane we could offer an excellent ME/IR program that would be hard to beat in the Lower Mainland.

This summer was extremely busy for SLA, the Katanas probably flew more hours than any individual aircraft at the other schools except at Montair which was busy flying their Chinese students from dawn.
I personally spent too many hours here, there was too much to do and to think about for the number of people employed here, but not enough to justify hiring another person.
I want instructors here to be properly paid and to take their time off as necessary, but I got tired.
I've just been away for three weeks, it was too short, and I still need a rest.

I was not aware of Alex's complaints until now... I'd rather people talk to me directly rather than posting on this forum.

Two things that I am working on for next year are:
1. The acquisition of two more Katanas... I want four on line for next summer and 2 - 3 of them will have the 100hp engines.
2. The addition of another Class 1 or 2 instructor to take the load off me.

The DA42... It's perhaps more frustrating for me than anyone else... I see the potential, but it's a gamble albeit and expensive one, with someone else's money.
There is another school in the Vancouver area likely to get a DA42 and so we'll see how they get on.

On a technical point... The Katana has pushrod operated aileron and elevator controls and a direct feel which is different to the Cessnas.
The Katana also has superb visibility which makes me feel a lot more comfortable in the congested airspace around here.
In the Cessna you are far more reliant on others seeing you because you can see comparatively little!

The Katana is easy to fly, and like in any other aeroplane it's the quality of instruction you get that is most important.

[KnownIce]

Hey if I can ask a somewhat related question here rather than starting a new thread since lots of Vancouver people are probably reading already:

I'm going to be in Vancouver 2 weeks from now and was thinking of doing some flying.

1) What school within a 1-1.5 hr drive of downtown Vancouver has the cheapest rental that is airworthy for 1-2 people to putter around in for a 2-3 hour sightseeing flight? I have flight time in C152, C172, and a 7AC.
2) What school is most likely to not milk me on a checkout?
3) Are there any interesting aircraft to rent in that same area? ie. anything out of the ordinary, even if it requires a more / only dual.

And as another side question: I'm going to be driving in to Vancouver from Calgary on a scenic drive (just flying into/out of Vancouver from Ontario for my meeting would be far to straight forward!). Any recommendations for a quick intro (dual only 2-3 hours) of Mountain flying somewhere along Hwy 1/16?

Please PM if you don't want to derail the existing discussion. Thanks!

[MichaelP]

1) Prices are consistent here, no cheap rates below the overly cheap existing rates.
2) At CZBB Pro is the least likely to milk you for a C152/C172 check. CFC has a C152 as well and are less likely to 'milk'.
3) CFC has both a Super Decathlon and a Citabria, no solo though, Pro has a 7ECA that you might solo if you're good,
then there's our Diamonds.

Drop in to Chilliwack on your way, it's besides the highway, there's food, pie, and good chat in there. You could see Jeanette at Principle Air who has 150/152 and a Warrior.

[akoch]

I was not aware of Alex's complaints until now... I'd rather people talk to me directly rather than posting on this forum.

Michael, I'd rather see this thing never develop in the first place.

When I was looking for a flight school I was curious and interested to learn about other people's experiences. If we all put everything under the carpet and pretend that no uncomfortable things happen that would not be fair, honest or healthy. No information sharing would happen either, not everyone goes to a CZBB restaurants and asks around or sits there waiting to be inquired. At least this way the school and people working there have a chance to give their opinion just as much as I do. And two or three of them did, which speaks positively of the school imho. Minimally this increases situational awareness. For anyone unbiased the mainline of this discussion is that SLA has superb planes superior imho to most of the competition, and a good number of excellent instructors. Sure, there are some challenges to look for, people now know of it as well. Everything stated was/is my personal experience, I dot not pretend to generalize it. But if the issues I mentioned never happen with any other student going forward, the school will only benefit.

[moocow]

Sorry to break this to you but have you seen our weather forecast as of late? I seriously doubt it will clean up enough for you to do a check-ride.

[MichaelP]

Alex's comments are noted.

But I will say this to all students out there.
If there is a problem it should be discussed directly at the school first. Bring it to the attention of the CFI.

Complaints should be handled within a school first, and then if there's no satisfaction perhaps the complaint can be taken outside even to a forum such as this.

AvCanada should not be the first place a complaint is made.

[MacNCheese]

I want instructors here to be properly paid and to take their time off as necessary

wow. you should go over to montair and kick some sense into the clowns runnin that show.

[MichaelP]

I worked for ** a long time ago, never again...
The CFI does not like me at all and yet he doesn't know me! There's a lot of things said about me behind my back and Boundary Bay is full of rumours as you probably know very well.
There is one 'school' on this field that spreads a lot of such rumours and sometimes I get a little annoyed at it.

I prefer cooperation to confrontation and I have a very good relationship with both CFC and Pro.
I'm more towards the British way of doing business rather than the nasty way some people treat each other here.
Competition can be friendly, it doesn't have to be nasty.

As for Sea Land Air, we were busy this past summer. Did someone say there was a recession?
The DA40, the SportStar, and to an extent the Eclipse did not do all that well, but the Katanas were fully booked and they flew and they flew.

I plan to have four Katanas on line in March after the Security Games.
I'll take on another couple of instructors, including someone who can take the load off me so that people won't complain about me on this forum!
It was very very tiring for me this past summer, I worked too many hours and too many days without breaks.

We have a break right now and we'll make ready for next summer.
Meanwhile that D-Sim DA42 FTD is busy now... Pilots have come around to the fact that they can do their IR renewals in it while learning new things.
In many ways it is the best sim of its type in the Lower Mainland. It is a DA42 and not something that pretends to be different aircraft.

[-Charlie-]

Did you end up finding a school?
Like most have mentioned on here, it's not always about the choice of school, but the instructor you're working with. I work out of CFC at CZBB and I frequently encourage potential pilots to take a walk around the block and settle in with a school that fits their personality best.. After all you are going to be spending a lot of time and hard earned money.
Most of the considerations have been spoken of here, but if you have any questions about schools on the field, I have trained with 4 of them.. I would be more then happy to PM you a 3rd party perspective.
When it comes down to one's Aviation Career I personally want you to have the best experience possible; that is just the type of person I am. Whether your at my school or another.
If you have started somewhere, I wish you the best.

[beaverdude]

When it comes down to one's Aviation Career I personally want you to have the best experience possible; that is just the type of person I am

Seems to me like you're full of it to be honest.

The vibe I get is that you're trying to promote that all of the instructor's at your school are nothing but career instructor's who don't care about their career progression but rather care about an individual on the avcanada forums having a good career experience. Let's be real here. How many of the current faces at your school will remain the same in 5 years? For that matter any school in the Boundary Bay Area? I think you and I both know the answer to that.

Hopefully your post is not a desperation in needing more student's. As it sure does come off that way.


I'm a long time reader on these boards and have always debated signing up. But to be honest I really found you to be sugar coating it too much so I thought I could use my experience to help somebody who seems to be a -1000 hr pilot. I was in your shoes one day and I know it's tough to be an instructor especially when you need to meet deadlines and aren't flying much in the winter weather; however, coming on an aviation board and sugar coating to attract students to your company is a definite receipt for failure. Nor is it any professional considering that you just brought up a company name as well - Canadian Flight Centre.

We all learn from our mistakes.


I wish you good luck with your instructing -Charlie-

[-Charlie-]

Beaverdude... perhapes this is why I never bother to write on this particular website.

I can assure you my intentions are genuine. No i'm not going to start a debate.
This world isn't all doom and gloom ... there are still people who actually care about others, if you care to meet sometime I will happily meet you for coffee whether you're a 20 hour wonder or a 10,000hr 777 Captain, then maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

I mean that invitation sincerely.