Jazz to get 737-800

[Bede]

This has EVERYTHING to do with ACPA and our CPA. If you are "just a charter operator" for us how come AC still gets the fuel, infrastructure and reservation bills to pay? While we are at it, if you are "just a charter operator" how come you get to use C2 passes on Mainline travel?

You pay the fuel, infrastructure and reservation bills because that is what AC and Jazz agreed upon in the CPA it still does not change the fact that we can seek additional sources of revenue outside of the AC name. The CPA is clear on this and your CA does not address it. We get the passes because of the generosity of AC and their employee groups.

As for pay, some of you don't understand how status pay works. The wages are averaged out so the smaller aircraft are paid well compared to other carriers whereas the larger aircraft pay less than average. Across a career, a pilot will still earn the same total amount of money, but will reduce pilot constantly changing aircraft to chase a buck. This allows better conditions for more junior pilots. Therefore, even if this contract does happen (which I doubt), the status pay will likely only rise a very small amount, but nowhere near what WJ, Sun Wing, etc will pay. However, find me a DH-8 driver making $110K/yr working 15 days a month.

Last thing: some of the comments on this thread has proved to be indicative of why our industry is in the shape it's in. When AC gets more planes (787, EMB, etc), nobody at Jazz gets their nose out of joint; ALPA isn't trying to take flying from our fellow pilots (such as lobbying for EMB) pushing them into unemployment. Yet when Jazz pilots are given an opportunity to fly aircraft that in no way hinders our fellow pilots, certain pilots start feeling threatened and wish ill on their fellow pilots. I am hoping the pilots frequenting this forum are not representative of their respective pilot groups.

[DanJ]

I wonder what Jazz or DSH would be doing with these planes in the 7 or so months a year they aren't going south? Sunwing does some cross Canada flights in the summer at pretty decent fares. If Jazz was doing something similar, I can see AC having a problem with that. Unless AC used this as an opportunity to cut mainline flights between certain cities and they all of a sudden become Jazz flights. In which case, I can see AC people having a problem with this.

[P 50]

I'm thinking YFB.

[Bede]

I'm thinking YFB.

FroBay here I come!!

[yycflyguy]

end the whipsawing? that's funny. ACPA walked away from that opportunity years ago. you wanna end the whipsawing? come back to the table.

That's the beautiful thing about aviation politics. ACPA members were told it was ALPA that walked away. He said, she said. If this goes through, and I can tell you ACPA is already starting a grievance procedure, it will be brought up again at negotiations time at mainline and any other operator that uses similar sized aircraft.

Bede: I hope this wasn't directed at my comments;

Last thing: some of the comments on this thread has proved to be indicative of why our industry is in the shape it's in. When AC gets more planes (787, EMB, etc), nobody at Jazz gets their nose out of joint; ALPA isn't trying to take flying from our fellow pilots (such as lobbying for EMB) pushing them into unemployment. Yet when Jazz pilots are given an opportunity to fly aircraft that in no way hinders our fellow pilots, certain pilots start feeling threatened and wish ill on their fellow pilots. I am hoping the pilots frequenting this forum are not representative of their respective pilot groups.

My point is that 737 contravenes the CPA and Jazz certainly is not known for providing "above industry standard wages" so this could be a bad thing for many pilot groups. If you do a search here on AVCanada you will see ALPA members who were/are convinced that Embraers are going to Jazz without any regard to those at mainline loosing positions. It is a 2 way street.

[Bede]

Only in this industry would employees be against their industry growing, all because it's not them directly that benefit. Pathetic.

My point is that 737 contravenes the CPA and Jazz certainly is not known for providing "above industry standard wages" so this could be a bad thing for many pilot groups.

It contravenes the CPA? Have you even read the CPA? It's rather dry, but it's available on http://www.sedar.com. I don't think this would have been announced if the lawyers involved would have thought this contravened the CPA.

You don't think Jazz pays industry standard wages? There is always room for improvement but find me another RJ or -8 company that pays what we do in North America (Horizon Air does do better on the CRJ900). WJ and AC crews make more money, and should, because they fly larger airplanes therefore each 737/A320 pilot "produces" at least twice the revenue that an RJ crew will. Your EMB wages are better, but not by a huge amount. Your top captain makes 30% more than our top captain, but then again, the EMB fleet averages about 30% more seats than our RJ/-8 (status pay keep in mind) fleet. Do you think EMB drivers should be paid the same as RJ/-8 guys?

A grievance would not do you much good. A grievance is between an employer and the bargaining agent. Because AC is not "ordering" 737 for Jazz or giving your flying to Jazz, an arbitrator would tell you that he does not have jurisdiction. Only AC could deal with CPA issues directly with Jazz.

Opposition to ACPA to this is about as stupid as when ALPA lobbied to have your Jetz contracts canceled. Let's not get stupid about more airlines, hiring more pilots, providing more jobs.

[yycflyguy]

That's the key. North American standard. You need to look worldwide to get a better representation of what industry standard is. Comparing yourself to Colgan(~$22000 USD for Q400s) or ExpressJet(~$21000 for the Emb145) in the US and claiming that your pay/conditions is "better" is rather disturbing. Yup, for North American standards it is slightly better because you have plentiful commuter companies in the US skewing what "normal" is.

[ACAV8R]

For Consideration:


Jets Settlement Agreement:


13. With the exception of the BAE-146’s currently in the Jazz fleet (which Jazz shall remove from the

fleet as it receives the CRJ-705’s), Jazz may not operate any jets beyond the numbers provided

by this settlement;

[TopperHarley]

In my recurrent g/s last month we had a manager come speak to us and he addressed the issue of doing contract flying. He said that it is completely legal within the boundaries of the CPA to be doing this type of flying, but that they would never pursue a contract that would risk severing the relationship between AC and Jazz in anyway. He made it clear that protecting the CPA was their priority and that they would never go after any type of flying that would put this at risk.

Let's imagine that Jazz introduces a payscale on par with canjet and sunwing? Would it then be acceptable for us to be doing this flying?

The Embraer issue is a whole different can of worms, if you ask me. I may be in the minority but I would be strongly opposed to Jazz operating them. You're starting to see this in the USA where the regionals are growing at the expense of the legacy carrier- this basically equates to the same number of jobs, but the total pay is lower. Having a unified pilot group/seniority list would prevent the whipsawing, but we all know that coming to an agreement on such a thing is almost impossible.

[yycflyguy]

Opposition to ACPA to this is about as stupid as when ALPA lobbied to have your Jetz contracts canceled. Let's not get stupid about more airlines, hiring more pilots, providing more jobs.

On the surface, hiring is a good thing. Hiring smaller numbers into a higher WAWCON with a stable company is better. Ask any Jetsgo pilot that sprayed their shorts at the opportunity to pay $30k for a type rating how it worked out for them.

My bad saying this was part of the CPA agreement... it falls under Article 1 and the Jets Settlement agreement as ACAV8R pointed out.

If, and this is a big if, Jazz can get around the JSA and provide a minimum of Westjet WAWCON I would be all for it. The cynic in me says this would only be used for further industry degradation.

[Bede]

That's the key. North American standard. You need to look worldwide to get a better representation of what industry standard is. Comparing yourself to Colgan(~$22000 USD for Q400s) or ExpressJet(~$21000 for the Emb145) in the US and claiming that your pay/conditions is "better" is rather disturbing. Yup, for North American standards it is slightly better because you have plentiful commuter companies in the US skewing what "normal" is.

Fine. Go world wide and factor in PPP (Purchasing Power Parity). The only pay you will find much better is in the Middle East, and personally, I don't want to go there. Honestly, please show me a DH-8/CRJ operator who pays significantly more than Jazz does and provide a link to their payscale.

ACAAV8R,
That applies to jets operated by Jazz on behalf of AC.

Why can't we just get along.?

[Bede]

Ask any Jetsgo pilot that sprayed their shorts at the opportunity to pay $30k for a type rating how it worked out for them.

True, JetsGo turned out to be crappy, but look at WestJet: They pretty much created a market for themselves (ditto Porter), as will a new holiday company (the fact that they use Jazz crews is irrelevant). Whenever there are new firms entering into a market, it is generally good for the industry as a whole. If we look the total airline pilots flying in Canada for WJ, Jazz and AC, it is considerably more than AC and Canadian in the pre-Westjet days. The pilots employed by WJ are in addition to those at AC/Jazz; they never took any pilot jobs away from AC. The fact that WestJet exists is good for even AC and Jazz pilots.
Let's say WJ never started up, but all those pilots who are now employed by WJ were floating around trying to get the best job they can, there is a good chance that I (as a Jazz pilot) or perhaps you (not sure when you were hired) would never have found work in this industry because an older pilot (who now works at WJ) would have a job at a lower paying firm (such as Jazz). Whenever new firms enter the market, it is good for the industry as a whole. Perhaps not all good (JetsGo), but better than no new entries. I don't understand why pilot's (see ALPA opposition to any new carrier in the US) don't get that.

[countryhick]

If, and this is a big if, Jazz can get around the JSA

The JSA applies to the jets ordered/transferred and operated on behalf of AC.

[mattedfred]

end the whipsawing? that's funny. ACPA walked away from that opportunity years ago. you wanna end the whipsawing? come back to the table.

That's the beautiful thing about aviation politics. ACPA members were told it was ALPA that walked away. He said, she said.

i assume by your statement that you weren't working for AC or any regional during the piche award

ACj compares it's wages to US regionals because AC requires it under the CPA

how did the starting wage on the CRJ then the EMB compare to industry standard when ACPA fought to keep them or get them respectably?

[flyinhigh]

Bottom line is, Jazz can and Jazz will do this contract if awarded with no ill effects on the CPA.

Oh it says this, it says that. It says that for direct competition only. Contracts such as these are NOT direct competition as we would be doing it for another company. NOT on our own.

Sorry to say but sit back and read all this slowly form the first topic as I just have, I really sounds as though quite a few Non-jazz pilots are defensive of another operator getting another type. relax.

Next if this does go through when it come to our pilot group it will more or less be turned down unless a massive wage increase as I have flown with a couple guys that think flying a RJ you should be paid as well as a westjet skipper. Thats the problem with out company alot of the senior guys want to change the way the pay is.

Bede coudn't have said it better, we may end up being a shitty 37 wage scale but our dash 8 pay will be top notch.

[teacher]

Actually "flyinhigh" I think I said that but I won't hold it against you

Status pay all the way.

[Main Gear]

I'm surprised at the range of opinions...I'm convinced it will happen...I'm convinced it won't happen

My thoughts are, that if it wasn't feasible, why would Jazz even be public about this....I'm pretty sure Jazz management knows the CPA details inside out and it's a simple yes or no answer (with respect to if they are allowed to do so or not) If it would jeopardize anything with Air Canada, they wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole....

[rightseatwonder]

funny , a couple of months ago it was westjet getting dash 8's and now its Jazz getting 737's!

I love this industry!

[flyinhigh]

deep deep beeep doop daap..this just in this just in.

Jazz air income fund has just bought out wasaya airilnes and is in the midst of a hostile take over of Westjet airlines as they need the 37-800s to do there charter flying for Direct sun.

ha, glad I finally got to break the new news

[mbav8r]

Kag wrote:
Well that was only a few years ago that WJ vacations really started, and then the economy was going great. Today we have mergers, foreclosures, a teetering economy, and the threat of oil bouncing back. It’s a very different landscape today, one that IMHO doesn’t need another player.

Many people don't think Yellowknife needed another player during this teetering economy, but hey look at the job loses up north. They're not launching it this week, the plan is for next season when there should be a recovery and more leasure travel, either way WJ started when there were many players already in that market why can't we.
Next point, whoever said wholesale wages, take a look back at the wages for 37's when WJ started and what they pay now. One would argue that the wholesale wages started back then and have improved since. You think were going to fly a 737 for 50ish, not gonna happen.
As someone else pointed out, the hipocrisy of some of the WJers on here is astounding.

[KAG]

The whole comment about hypocrisy is a funny one, as in that depends on which viewpoint you take - how you look at the situation.
Anyway, good luck Jazz, I hope the economy does turn around and you do get the contract. I know my fiancé would love to work those flights. And in a few years when your wasting time on Avcanada, and now porter (or whoever) is looking to do the same thing and you get your back up, maybe you’ll remember this thread and maybe see the hypocrisy in your own view point.

[squawk 7600]

All the bashing and jealousy in this thread is a prime example of why we need a common pilot's union in this country. I've never seen so much jealousy in a group of professionals. ACPA is only concerned that Jazz pilot's don't gain any self respect; Westjet is bent on world domination (all the while with fake smiles on their faces); and Jazz just wants to fly airplanes and not be laughed at for their pathetic wages.

In the end, nobody really wants to see someone else succeed, so don't believe it for an instant.

[Mclovin]

All the bashing and jealousy in this thread is a prime example of why we need a common pilot's union in this country. I've never seen so much jealousy in a group of professionals. ACPA is only concerned that Jazz pilot's don't gain any self respect; Westjet is bent on world domination (all the while with fake smiles on their faces); and Jazz just wants to fly airplanes and not be laughed at for their pathetic wages.

In the end, nobody really wants to see someone else succeed, so don't believe it for an instant.

Amen to that. I have never understood this. Come on guys we all do the same job, and fly in the same sky. We all worked our asses off to get to where we are. Why can't we be happy when our colleagues have an oppurtunity to fly some new iron and advance in their career?

[mbav8r]

squawk 7600 wrote:
All the bashing and jealousy in this thread is a prime example of why we need a common pilot's union in this country. I've never seen so much jealousy in a group of professionals. ACPA is only concerned that Jazz pilot's don't gain any self respect; Westjet is bent on world domination (all the while with fake smiles on their faces); and Jazz just wants to fly airplanes and not be laughed at for their pathetic wages.

In the end, nobody really wants to see someone else succeed, so don't believe it for an instant.



Amen to that. I have never understood this. Come on guys we all do the same job, and fly in the same sky. We all worked our asses off to get to where we are. Why can't we be happy when our colleagues have an oppurtunity to fly some new iron and advance in their career?

Amen to what? or did you miss the contradiction in squacks comment, aparently Jazz guys have no self respect and we're laughed at for our pathetic wages. Nope no bashing there, at all. Amen to that

[flyinhigh]

Holy F$%k, enough with the pathetic wage topic at Jazz. Get over it. For a company with a pathetic wage of $110K to fly a dash or a RJ it surprises me that there is a never ending line up of pilots applying here.

Don't like it, Don't apply.

As for the rest, yes squak you said it. Can't we all be happy for each other.