Beaver down off Saturna island (Updates)

[phillyfan]

Another thing that most of us are guilty of is jamming coolers and other heavy things right up against the back of the seat. We laugh as we tell everyone to exhale and slam the "coffin" door shut. Those coolers and shit are blocking any hope of getting the door open if need be.

[chesty]

There are beavers where the seatbelts arn't attached to the seats only? I don't think I've came across one. Would like to see a picture if someone has one handy.
Why could you not make a window in the top of the cabin, like the otters have?

[bushwhacker]

; Blown,

upside down, in cold, dark water and 3 fat turkeys in the way, a guy is going to be able to reach back from his seat, and open those doors? I dunno about that...
How about putting the handles at the leading edge of the door, right about where the pax knees are. That, IMveryHO, would be the best location..;

North Shore

Look close and you'll see the forward handle right at the pax's knees. there are two latches, one the back seat guys can reach and one the center seat and the front seat guys can reach.

jp

[snoopy]

Perhaps if the handles were painted bright red, and the directional arrows marked on the door, it would enhance the visibility and hence the safety features of the new system. Certainly the flush handles located behind the middle seat, jammed in behind coolers, duffel bags and large passengers, were never a good system.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[PAXUNK]

Please remember that some Beavers are operated with three rows of seating: Pilot and passenger, middle bench (3 pax), and rear seat (2 pax). Ideally both the middle row pax or the rear seat pax should be able to open the main doors. (You never know who will be conscious and able).

So the first problem is to open the doors under water.

The next is for everyone to be able to escape even if some are unconscious.

Exit from the rear seats requires that the middle seat pax are conscious and able to exit, so that they clear the way for the rear seat pax.

A rear roof exit could save the rear seat pax.

[viccoastdog]

Look close and you'll see the forward handle right at the pax's knees. there are two latches, one the back seat guys can reach and one the center seat and the front seat guys can reach.

That is a good set up. it's a bit hard to tell in the pictures, but are there two levers on the top of the door, just below the window? Do you just pull the handle back to open it?

During passenger briefings with the standard handle arrangement I had always pointed out that the handle was easiest for the rear seat passengers to operate.

[Bulawrench]

You guys just won't leave it alone.
The facts are the doors were open and all seat belts were undone.
It may be that you get the wind knocked out of you on impact as well as your brain bounces inside
the scull ( like the monkey tests by NASA)
So shock and wind knocked out of you coupled with cold water makes it very difficult let alone impossible.
Jettison doors may be a help. The military would have you put a parachute on as well.
Let us all recover from the shock. It is affecting everyone in so many ways.

[RatherBeFlying]

The facts are the doors were open and all seat belts were undone.

By whom?

Were you talking to one of the divers who recovered the bodies or do you base your statement on seeing the wreck after it was raised?

[bushwhacker]

Look close and you'll see the forward handle right at the pax's knees. there are two latches, one the back seat guys can reach and one the center seat and the front seat guys can reach.

That is a good set up. it's a bit hard to tell in the pictures, but are there two levers on the top of the door, just below the window? Do you just pull the handle back to open it?

During passenger briefings with the standard handle arrangement I had always pointed out that the handle was easiest for the rear seat passengers to operate.

You just push forward on either handle and the door opens.Its about a thousand times better than the original dehav. system .

jp

[North Shore]

;

Look close and you'll see the forward handle right at the pax's knees. there are two latches, one the back seat guys can reach and one the center seat and the front seat guys can reach.

jp

Ah, Ok, sorry, didn't see them at first.. As Snoopy says, Red paint might be an idea

[Hornblower]

Yup ... red paint ... that's the ticket. I think I heard Bry the Dorky Guy say that red paint is the sure fire fix for unconcious people upside down in the back of a beaver, under water in the middle of the winter, who can't swim and are without a life jacket.

Yup that'll do it!

[snoopy]

Well, certainly the passengers are more likely to remember a big red safety-looking thing with directional arrows that they heard about during the passenger briefing, and stared at subconsciously during the flight... over a nondescript tab that blends into the door, and that they may or may not have heard about if they were even listening to the passenger briefing in the first place.

Also, if the company takes it seriously enough to blatantly and clearly identify it as both a normal and emergency exit, chances are more likely the passengers will pay attention to it too. Really, you should only hide the exits if the passengers haven't yet paid for the flight...

Just a thought

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Hornblower]

Really, you should only hide the exits if the passengers haven't yet paid for the flight...
Kirsten B.

That pretty well covers all the Beaver flight that I ever flew, ... 'course I never flew skeds in rainbow land, or the people back into the reserves.

[Finn47]

This new related article on floatplane safety is rather interesting in many respects:

http://www.westcoaster.ca/modules/AMS/a ... oryid=7429

[RatherBeFlying]

Extracts from preceeding URL:

Transport Canada has known about the problem of people dying in submerged float planes long before the tragic deaths of six people last month near Saturna Island, B.C.

But rather than act on various reports and studies that made safety recommendations around life vests for passengers and quick-release doors, Transport Canada concluded more work needed to be done on the subject.

In the meantime, according to a 2008 internal government memo, any safety changes should be put on hold in “deference to other civil aviation priorities.”

Various reports and studies in recent years have recommended that passengers wear life vests that would inflate in the event of a crash, and that the aircraft be equipped with quick-release doors.
.
.
.
In 2005, several float plane accidents and the public concern around floatplane safety prompted the federal government to launch a safety review, which was completed in 2006.

The May 2008 [memo] that referred to other priorities was between two high-profile Transport Canada officials.

Both the memo and the safety review were obtained using federal Access to Information laws by Kirsten Stevens, whose husband died in a float plane crash in 2005.
.
.
.
Among the recommendations in the 2006 review is that life vests be worn and doors left unlocked during takeoff and landing, and that there be a way to ensure that cargo and baggage doesn't interfere with people scrambling to get out of the plane.
.
.
.
In the internal memo on the report dated May 22, 2008, Martin Eley, the director of national aircraft certification for Transport Canada, said he reviewed the 2006 report and thought more work needed to be done.

“The additional work done, from a different perspective, did in fact confirm that there was no readily identifiable solution that would have a major impact on the existing level of float plane safety,” Eley wrote to Merlin Preuss, the director general of civil aviation for Transport Canada.

“In a subsequent discussion you and I agreed that in the absence of a clear way forward, this file would be put on hold in deference to other civil aviation priorities,” the letter said.

Stevens agreed there is a lot of debate about whether passengers should wear life jackets and whether they hinder a passenger's ability to get out of a crashed plane, but she said life jackets are available that are thin and don't inflate until the person activates them outside the plane.

“The thing is having the darn thing on before you have a problem because you're not going to have a chance to get it out (when you crash),” she said.

Had TC been more proactive with quick release doors and wearable lifejackets, it looks like more people could have survived this crash.

Offshore oil workers get training, constant wear inflatable lifejackets, PLBs and survival suits.

[Widow]

Several recommendations found in the Floatplane Safety Study I ATIP'ed actually go back to the 1994 TSB Safety Study and beyond. The TSB does not list their assesments of TC responses to these recommendations.

[SeptRepair]

Had TC been more proactive with quick release doors and wearable lifejackets, it looks like more people could have survived this crash.

Offshore oil workers get training, constant wear inflatable lifejackets, PLBs and survival suits.

I will have to disagree. This cannot be put at Transports feet. This is a very unfortunate accident. Any company out there who operate float planes can exceed transports minimum requirements and force their passengers to wear life jackets for take off and landing, and as well can research and certify their own ( In the form of LSTC's or STC's) systems of door opening for emergency evacuation in case of submersion. Im thinking in light of this accident and the vocal advocacy by Kirsten you may see more operators in the near future upping the margin of safety. Properly marketed they may have an advantage over the next guy if they can prove they are a safer operator. I know Seair is a good company and they strive for excellence. In no way am I suggesting they could have done anything to change this tragic outcome. My condolences to the familes affected.

[RatherBeFlying]

I will have to disagree. This cannot be put at Transports feet.

My take is TSB and TC have had the studies for some years and TC has failed to exercise its regulatory responsibilties in this case.

We still don't know how the accident happened, but the public deserve a decent chance at getting out. Yes, it seems acceptable that moose hunters and trappers take on some extra risk, but I don't think middle class Gulf Islanders using a scheduled air service will swallow that one.

[HS-748 2A]

I will have to disagree. This cannot be put at Transports feet.

My take is TSB and TC have had the studies for some years and TC has failed to exercise its regulatory responsibilties in this case.

We still don't know how the accident happened, but the public deserve a decent chance at getting out. Yes, it seems acceptable that moose hunters and trappers take on some extra risk, but I don't think middle class Gulf Islanders using a scheduled air service will swallow that one.

Borrowed from another thread:

Is faster more important than safe?

Yup. That's one reason people started using aeroplanes when there were perfectly good trains around.

The accident is regretable but I do not belive that operating in the environment that they do, costal air taxis could be a whole bunch safer without prohibitive cost; prohibitive being the operative word.

Middle class Gulf Islanders have choice like the rest of us to find other means of transport.

Nothing we do in this life is without inherent risk.

'48

[wabano]

It is obviously a wind shear accident, the airplane did not hit terribly hard,
fuselage a bit banged up but the engine is still half way there and even one wing too.
Of course, the floats where ripped off so the plane sunk
right away with it's stunned passengers.

I had the same thing happen this summer with the turbo Otter at 500 feet,
a wind shear pushed us down all the way briskly in the water...we bounced off
and proceeded...a beaver would have crashed the same as this one.

I think the Beaver, the Norseman and even the piston Otter where licensed to
different standards than those of today's airplanes. Man, you fly in the lee
of a mountain on a windy day
and those things barely stay in the air!

As for making the passengers wear those nice compact boat life jackets, good luck!
We had sport fishermen going fishing in sneakers, enduring cold wet feet all day
rather than wear warm dry rubber boots as we did...and paying a fortune
to suffer so!

[HS-748 2A]

It is obviously a wind shear accident

That would be my guess as well. A sudden burst, likely from the left caused him to dig the right wing and cartwheel it.

I had a friend demolish a 185 in a very cold 'north-of-60' lake with 3 pax onboard.

He tookoff in the lee of a point but got out past the point into a crosswind before he had enough flying speed or altitude to correct the situation.

They were very lucky everbody was able to egress sucessfully, it was observed from shore and they were rescued by a local who had a boat handy. Very lucky.

I believe they were all treated for hypothermia, otherwise, their injuries were not significant.

Brings to mind; "Learn from the mistakes of others... "

[SeptRepair]

We still don't know how the accident happened, but the public deserve a decent chance at getting out. Yes, it seems acceptable that moose hunters and trappers take on some extra risk, but I don't think middle class Gulf Islanders using a scheduled air service will swallow that one.

I agree with you there.

[snoopy]

Now why would it be acceptable for moose hunters and trappers to take on extra risk when they climb on board a float plane, but middle-class Gulf Islanders should be afforded extra safety? Are not all passengers entitled to the same level of safety? Are they not governed by the same federal regulations?

Kirsten B.

[seniorpumpkin]

Hunters, trappers, fishermen are embarking on "adventure tourism" an activity that carries a higher perceived risk, that's where some of the allure lies. Commuters are not interested in risk, they don't even want so much as a hint of risk.
I'm not saying that we should have two sets of safety standards, just that, hunters and trappers have different expectations than commuters. Also, yes they are without a doubt entitled to the same safety standards.
Although it does appear as though better door handles may not have helped the survivability in this accident, there is no doubt in my mind that we need better handles in all beavers.

[xsbank]

Maybe a more appropriate mod would be to add flotation bags to the airframe similar to the inflatable floats on some helicopters? Then if the sucker didn't sink, the passengers would have plenty of time to contemplate the operation of the doors?