Pilots on autopilot...

[alpha1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/17/opini ... .html?_r=1

Interesting article from a guy who has been around......

[canwhitewolf]

those guys that overflew their destination should be forced to take lie detector tests

i dont believe them for a moment

[ahramin]

I completely believe them. If they were going to lie, they would have said they fell asleep. Who on earth would lie and say they forgot to fly the airplane? Way too stupid a move to admit to and have it be a lie.

[loopa]

When I was 14 or 15, I was a part of British Airways Virtual... yes you might say, here goes mr flight simulator telling me how to fly a plane.

Haha, that's not what I'm doing but they had a pretty nifty system to prevent people from firing up their flight sims, putting them on auto pilot, going to sleep overnight, and waking up 30 minutes prior to landing for the arrival and logging of the flight time.

They had an ACARS system that required the pilot to respond to a position report from time to time. This "time-to-time" could be an interval of 15 to 30 minutes. It required the person doing that flight to press a position report every time an alarm went off in the cockpit. And if they didn't press the button within 2 minutes, the acars would disconnect from the flight and the flight time would no longer be logged and the pilot would be flagged as "inactive."

As I said, this was used to prevent people from flying and logging 8 hours when they were only around the computer for 1 hour.

Similar thing with the northwest incident, they were only there for a matter of 20-30 minutes for the entire flight right? Their situational awareness went out of the window and they forgot about their responsibilities. Perhaps something to the extent of an alarm or a sequences of alarms could be placed on flight decks requiring the pilot's to respond either by pressing a button or doing something else could be the solution to ensuring a pilot's situational awareness.


What do you guys think?

[pika]

San Diego to Minneapolis - 1331nm. 440kts TAS of the A320 makes a three hour flight. ATC tried for over an hour to raise them. I understand dropping radio contract for a significant time on a 14 hour flight but on a 3 hour domestic flight it's a stretch to believe what is being claimed. Laptops and heated discussion!?

Headsets came off at top of climb and neither one turned the speaker on? Neither one noticed that it was WAY too quiet for WAY too long? They missed by 150nm. Descent should have started about 100nm before MSP. Programming and briefing should have been started somewhere around 200nm before descent. I call bullsh*t. Is MSP not NW's home base? How many times has the crew landed there? Situational awareness anybody? They were alsleep.

Perhaps something to the extent of an alarm or a sequences of alarms could be placed on flight decks requiring the pilot's to respond either by pressing a button or doing something else could be the solution to ensuring a pilot's situational awareness.

I can only speak for Boeing products but long haul machines have this feature. I can only assume Airbus has it too.

[GilletteNorth]

Pika, several points...

It was a relatively short flight (3 hours).
They wouldn't fall asleep with less than an hour to go...
They were well rested and had plenty of sleep prior to the flight.
The co-pilot forgot to mention a frequency change to the captain and the wrong frequency was dialled in.
The crew may have been monitoring the radio for their call sign while discussing the schedule but they never would have heard ATC call their call-sign (being on the wrong frequency)

Before repeating ad-naseum that they were out of radio contact for over an hour you have to look at a breakdown of the time-span. A large portion of the time they were 'out of contact' they were not required to talk to ATC. For some of the time they were out of contact they would have been listening for ATC to call their call-sign (which they didn't hear due to being on the wrong frequency) and then there is the small portion they just weren't actively situationally aware resulting in them overflying by 150 miles, which is what, 15 minutes in an A320 going mach? They also were 'waking up' to the fact they overflew prior to contacting ATC so shave a few minutes off for that.

[GilletteNorth]

I think the arcticle (thank you alpha 1) hits the problem right on the head. Aircraft ARE becoming more and more automated and pilots who fly them are becoming more complacent about their duties. Look at the example of the french crew with the stewardess stripping in the cockpit. Apparently it's so easy to fly a jetliner these days pilots can enjoy other non-authorized activities in the cockpit without fearing the plane will crash.

[cyeg66]

I just don't know about this one. Pretty bizarre situation either way you look at it. What I don't understand is, how does the FMS "allow" the airplane to overfly its destination when there is theoretically no f/p routing after its destination? Isn't there a STAR (RNAV or other) inputted in the computer? Wouldn't there be audible warnings issued by the FMS advising the pilots that they are fast approaching their clearance limit, or T.O.D.? Even assuming that the STAR hadn't been entered into the computer, and instead its clearance limit was the Minnie VOR(for example), where would the plane go after the VOR is reached? Hold its current track?... Any Airbus pilots want to chime in? It points to deep sleep, in my guesstimation.

[FlaplessDork]

I completely believe them. If they were going to lie, they would have said they fell asleep. Who on earth would lie and say they forgot to fly the airplane? Way too stupid a move to admit to and have it be a lie.

+1

I think with the push for changes in duty times to reduce fatigue they would be better off to admit they fell asleep.

[canwhitewolf]

I think the arcticle (thank you alpha 1) hits the problem right on the head. Aircraft ARE becoming more and more automated and pilots who fly them are becoming more complacent about their duties. Look at the example of the french crew with the stewardess stripping in the cockpit. Apparently it's so easy to fly a jetliner these days pilots can enjoy other non-authorized activities in the cockpit without fearing the plane will crash.

**********************************************************************

roger that and a locked door to boot, so what was really going on in the cockpit?. being asleep or distracted on a computer doesnt cut it for me

lie detector test needed here just to help eleminate the possibilities to help ensure they got to the truth on this

[crankedup]

I just don't know about this one. Pretty bizarre situation either way you look at it. What I don't understand is, how does the FMS "allow" the airplane to overfly its destination when there is theoretically no f/p routing after its destination? Isn't there a STAR (RNAV or other) inputted in the computer? Wouldn't there be audible warnings issued by the FMS advising the pilots that they are fast approaching their clearance limit, or T.O.D.? Even assuming that the STAR hadn't been entered into the computer, and instead its clearance limit was the Minnie VOR(for example), where would the plane go after the VOR is reached? Hold its current track?... Any Airbus pilots want to chime in? It points to deep sleep, in my guesstimation.

The FMS (FMC) won't give an aural signal when you fly beyond what was entered into the route page regardless of whether or not a STAR was added.

Whenever any limit is reached (end of route) for example, the AC will, as you assumed above-Hold its present Track and Altitude. Anything else really would be unsafe if you think about it.

But one thing is for certain, we can never blame the degree of automation on any aircraft for any incidents like this. It's the easy way out but it's just bullshit. Automation is only bad when pilots don't understand it.

[cyeg66]

Whenever any limit is reached (end of route) for example, the AC will, as you assumed above-Hold its present Track and Altitude. Anything else really would be unsafe if you think about it.

No doubt, though in this case, I find flying straight ahead with no pilot in control is particularly unsafe . They obviously hadn't gotten around to programming the STAR, etc when they were still a ways back.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[pika]

GilleteNorth,

They wouldn't fall asleep with less than an hour to go...

This is exactly my point. They didn't just fall asleep before top of descent, they were asleep for most of the flight (or so it would seem). The last hour of the flight needed their attention and received absolutely NONE.

Time/fuel checks on the flightplan were disregarded as well?

The co-pilot forgot to mention a frequency change to the captain and the wrong frequency was dialled in.
The crew may have been monitoring the radio for their call sign while discussing the schedule but they never would have heard ATC call their call-sign (being on the wrong frequency)

I've checked in on the wrong freq many times but when I do check in I usually get the correct one.

Too unbelievable and too many coincidences that allow a fully trained and qualified crew to miss their destination by 150nm.

[AME 283]

Time tp replace pilots with a little thing called a computer chip, just think, this would eliminate duty days, extra coffee, would follow orders, we have the technology !!!

[cyeg66]

Time tp replace pilots with a little thing called a computer chip, just think, this would eliminate duty days, extra coffee, would follow orders, we have the technology !!!

...Do away with those pesky controllers, too. Institute all-out free flight. All delays will just go away. Whew! Finally, the flying public will be safe...

Time to put together a new CV.

[Meatservo]

We have the technology to replace AMEs too, but assembly line robots are too expensive, and chimps are endangered.