CYPW gear up Ho

[human garbage]

F*ck GUMPS... All I care about is the gear, the rest is just nice.

Everytime crossing the fence: Three green, no red, and one in the mirror... Get in the habit of doing it without fail and it will save some grief.

Then again if it was mechanical in nature, good they got it down with no loss of life, and the comment above doesn't apply.

[peter]

No one ever seems to forget to advance the throttles during take-off, or reduce power before landing... or select gear up after take-off... selecting the gear to the down position is just another item that must be done in order to successfully complete a flight... in a retractable gear aircraft of course.

[Lurch]

GUMPF
gas gauges undercarriage mixture mags pumps props flaps flaps (Cowls) etc.

Sure wouldn't want to miss the gas gauges on short final! And if the gas gauges are u/s, are you going to do a missed? As a landing check, the flaps and gear you want. The props and mixture you could do without. Really. Makes me think we are demanding too much from these poor lads? They can't even remember the gear, and you want them to remember the whole shooting match? Come up with a memory aid for JUST the gear.
GDOTWRMAOAVCANADA.
Gear down or they will roast my ass on avcanada!

This has always bothered me, why do we need Props/Mixtures up for landing?

Lurch

[North Shore]

and not retracting your 'gear' before you zip it up is even worse

LOL! Post of the thread, IMHO!

[railroad]

With the props in fine pitch, you are in better position to overshoot. Try the overshoot with props at cruise, it is like you are trying to pull away from a stop light in 4th gear.

As well, different airplanes have different systems. In a twin otter, you will not be able to select reverse pitch until the props are in fine position. Depending on the strip, or lack of strip, this could be a big screw up.

I'm sure there are other reasons as well, these were just on the tip of my tongue.

[Cat Driver]

Try the overshoot with props at cruise, it is like you are trying to pull away from a stop light in 4th gear.

Which should clue you in you need a lower gear.

Same with an airplane...select the gear you need when you need it, not long before because you may not be able to remember to do it.

[Doc]

With the props in fine pitch, you are in better position to overshoot.
As well, different airplanes have different systems. In a twin otter, you will not be able to select reverse pitch until the props are in fine position. Depending on the strip, or lack of strip, this could be a big screw up.

If you need to overshoot (because you've forgotten the gear?)you slap the props forward on the go.
Last time I looked (and I have several thousand hours in the things)the gear was not much of an issue on the Twin Otter? (on wheels here, folks) So, instead of selecting gear down, you could put the props up? Too simple? I always left the props alone till the flare.

[xsbank]

GUMPF works for all sorts of aircraft, not just Navajos. Its perfect for a Beav, frinstance. Personally, I always push the props up on final, habit from lots of float planes and bombing, I guess. No point in getting picky, it is a generic 'checklist' that reinforces your geographic check. Only about 1/10th of my time is multi-crew and so far I've avoided the scraping sound......

In a Beav., fullest tank, no U/C unless an amphib. but could apply to water rudders, mixture rich, mags both, props fine (nothing happens because it is at idle anyway until you add power to flare) flaps as required. Meh.

Use whatever you need for your own op - use whatever you need to put the gear down! Seems to be a mix of single and multi-crews doing the scrape so who knows what the problem is?

[husky]

In my opinion, forgetting to lower the gear is indicative of a personality flaw, one that makes the indivual(s) unsuitable to be pilots. Putting the gear down prior to landing is a critical element to flying an airplane...at least as important as setting the correct altimeter setting before an approach to minimums, remembering to stop descent at the MDA, not flying past the missed approach point, remembering critical memory item checklists...well you get the point. Forgetting any of these items is probably/potentially deadly, so why are there apologists for those that forget to lower the gear???

[Doc]

In my opinion, forgetting to lower the gear is indicative of a personality flaw, one that makes the indivual(s) unsuitable to be pilots. Putting the gear down prior to landing is a critical element to flying an airplane...at least as important as setting the correct altimeter setting before an approach to minimums, remembering to stop descent at the MDA, not flying past the missed approach point, remembering critical memory item checklists...well you get the point. Forgetting any of these items is probably/potentially deadly, so why are there apologists for those that forget to lower the gear???

Interesting point, but all the other "important" items you listed, when the stars are aligned correctly, you might just get away with. Leaving the gear up results in damage 100% of the time.

[604birdman]

i personally went and looked at the plane.......the gear handle was in the up neutral position. theres always enough juice in the system to even be able to drop a d door even if both pumps were to fail and if you got 2 pumps out of the emergency handle before it happen to fail, and all the doors were still up. and the quick release on the emergency handle cover was still in the locked position.

In the end like everyones been saying any pilot who had a KNOWN gear issue would probably not land in powell river.

In this case there were 2 pilots and both missed the handle. i think only one persons metioned it, regardless of "just knowing" to put the gear down, there is always a checklist, and on the checklist it clearly says " gear handle down, three green". its when people forget the checklist or think they know it by memory and it becomes a norm is when problems happen. all we can do is learn from this.

[stmymdy]

oh dang, i forgot to start an engine before takeoff..
same caliber of mistake as forgetting to put the gear down imho
but why the massive gear opinions on avcanada all of a sudden??

[Meatservo]

With the props in fine pitch, you are in better position to overshoot.
As well, different airplanes have different systems. In a twin otter, you will not be able to select reverse pitch until the props are in fine position. Depending on the strip, or lack of strip, this could be a big screw up.

If you need to overshoot (because you've forgotten the gear?)you slap the props forward on the go.
Last time I looked (and I have several thousand hours in the things)the gear was not much of an issue on the Twin Otter? (on wheels here, folks) So, instead of selecting gear down, you could put the props up? Too simple? I always left the props alone till the flare.

Landing on a riverbed or an esker, or hard packed drifts, sometimes a go-around is called for right at the last minute if the surface proves to be less than optimal. Plus, having the props disking just before touchdown allows for finer airspeed control for touchdown and reverse. I wouldn't wait for the flare. Just me though. I happen to like the "GUMP" check.

Doc, your comment about removing your clothes before getting into the shower reminded me of something that happened recently. I was so tired one day that I walked into the bathroom fully clothed, turned on the taps in the sink, got into the shower fully clothed and stood there wondering why I wasn't getting wet. I might have figured it out for myself except my wife came along a split second later and asked me what the hell I was doing. My point is, maybe fatigue plays a part in these incidents that feature "forgetful" pilots. How many people here have "ALMOST" forgotten the gear? I can admit to remembering it later than I would have liked once. I won't condone forgetfulness but I'm not ready to throw stones either. On the balance, I should probably just be quiet.

[shitdisturber]

[quote="Meatservo
Doc, your comment about removing your clothes before getting into the shower reminded me of something that happened recently. I was so tired one day that I walked into the bathroom fully clothed, turned on the taps in the sink, got into the shower fully clothed and stood there wondering why I wasn't getting wet. I might have figured it out for myself except my wife came along a split second later and asked me what the hell I was doing. My point is, maybe fatigue plays a part in these incidents that feature "forgetful" pilots. How many people here have "ALMOST" forgotten the gear? I can admit to remembering it later than I would have liked once. I won't condone forgetfulness but I'm not ready to throw stones either. On the balance, I should probably just be quiet.[/quote]

If you were smart you'd have told her you were trying to be thoughtful and save her the trouble of doing your laundry, you might even have gotten lucky that way. People never think to have an escape route planned.

[v6g]

Well if it's true (as said on another thread) that Orca pilots are paid $9 an hour then you don't get professional, rested, clear-thinking folk turning up to work at that rate.

Instead you get people who, through no fault of their own, are chronically fatigued from working at their 'other' job all night long, tired from having to live in the cheapest room in town and being unable to sleep due to the traffic noise and their neighbours music while they're trying to sleep. Hungry from not having time between their multiple jobs to eat properly. Stressed & distracted from worrying about how they're going to pay the next months installment on their training loan and how to pay their car insurance next month. And unfit due to that nagging tooth-ache they've had for a month now because they can't afford a dentist.

No amount of training or procedures can fix that.

[nimbostratus]

Found a couple of definitions that a couple of members on this site may want to familiarize themselves with.

hubris [ˈhjuːbrɪs], hybris
n
1. pride or arrogance
2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (in Greek tragedy) an excess of ambition, pride, etc., ultimately causing the transgressor's ruin
[from Greek]
hubristic , hybristic adj

And...

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म kárma (help·info), kárman- "act, action, performance"

[1]; Pali: kamma) in Indian religions is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Buddhist philosophies.

[2]The idea of karma was popularized in the Western world through the work of the Theosophical Society. In this conception, karma is affiliated with the Neopagan law of return or Threefold Law, the idea that the beneficial or harmful effects one has on the world will return to oneself. Colloquially this may be summed up as 'what goes around comes around.'




Nimbo

[Cat Driver]

I also have a few words some do not seem to understand.

Airmanship.

Competency.

Attention to detail especially important details.

In two crew airplanes the efficient use of CRM.

Shall I go on?

[Dust Devil]

Well if it's true (as said on another thread) that Orca pilots are paid $9 an hour then you don't get professional, rested, clear-thinking folk turning up to work at that rate.

Instead you get people who, through no fault of their own, are chronically fatigued from working at their 'other' job all night long, tired from having to live in the cheapest room in town and being unable to sleep due to the traffic noise and their neighbours music while they're trying to sleep. Hungry from not having time between their multiple jobs to eat properly. Stressed & distracted from worrying about how they're going to pay the next months installment on their training loan and how to pay their car insurance next month. And unfit due to that nagging tooth-ache they've had for a month now because they can't afford a dentist.

No amount of training or procedures can fix that.

How is working for $9/hr not their own fault if true?

[human garbage]

i personally went and looked at the plane.......the gear handle was in the up neutral position. theres always enough juice in the system to even be able to drop a d door even if both pumps were to fail and if you got 2 pumps out of the emergency handle before it happen to fail, and all the doors were still up. and the quick release on the emergency handle cover was still in the locked position.

Interesting. It is possible the selector cable broke (AD mandated replacement at 4000 TIS). That is about the only scenario that would explain the D door position, other than the hydraulic pack itself crapping out (handle would be down in that case). Unlikely but possible for either to happen admittedly....

And DD, I know people on the whale crew. The wage is more than $9 an hour in YVR now. The days of pay scales like that are hopefully gone forever.

[Dust Devil]

And DD, I know people on the whale crew. The wage is more than $9 an hour in YVR now. The days of pay scales like that are hopefully gone forever.

I didn't say they made $9/hr outside of my operation I don't know or care what anyone makes

[human garbage]

I didn't say they made $9/hr outside of my operation I don't know or care what anyone makes

Yeah sorry. I see now you were just referring to something v6g said. Unless Orca has taken a massive pay cut since I was there, that pay figure isn't accurate is all I was pointing out. Then again I haven't read the thread he mentioned and it has been a while since I was there.

Not caring what others make is smart. I'm the same. I pay my pilots well and that is all that matters to me.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Orca Fo pay is $9 a duty hour. Well it is above minimum wage.......

[v6g]

I didn't say they made $9/hr outside of my operation I don't know or care what anyone makes

Yeah sorry. I see now you were just referring to something v6g said. Unless Orca has taken a massive pay cut since I was there, that pay figure isn't accurate is all I was pointing out. Then again I haven't read the thread he mentioned and it has been a while since I was there.

Not caring what others make is smart. I'm the same. I pay my pilots well and that is all that matters to me.

Here's the thread where I read the $9/hour figure - it's from last year - that's all I know.

Sad thing is, it's believable.

[Flying Nutcracker]

My thoughts are, for what it is worth; 1) stay with or ahead of the airplane, 2) know when you are fixating.

These 2 issues are distractions that will break any routine you might have acquired beforehand. Let the airplane slip away from you and your pattern of routine is out of sync. Fixate on any one task (for 2 crew read one pilot behind, the other fixating on the progress of the other pilot) noone will catch missed items. Windy, bumpy, unstable approach and, in general challenging conditions, will contribute to these 2 dangers! Recognize these and discontinue any approach that show signs of the above. Do it again and get it right! Stay ahead of the airplane.

[Flying Nutcracker]

One more thing in reference to training being the fix... The training has to be all about discipline. Respect for procedures and adherence to the system in place. Procedural drift is a very known factor in crm related incidents and accidents.

Maybe the junior crews doing all this hard flying, that really needs a mature attitude and seasoned aviators, are at an even bigger disadvantage than we give them credit for? Junior fo will not necessarily challenge an immature captain who pushes the boundaries of the sop's the wrong way under pressure of "being able to deliver" because of the junior fo's fear of not being a team player and being washed out...
This leads to a culture of procedural drift undetected because nobody wants to stand up for professional standards and airmanship and say something.

I agree with Cat Driver in the fact that he is free of baggage, not only due to his professional attitude towards the art of flying, but also due to him having colleagues that shared his attributes.

This partly comes from structured training, but also from a professional safety culture that encourages doing the right thing!

This can be hard to find in small companies with a young crowd without a mature attitude, like some 703 operators nationwide. How do we fix that???