Your thoughts on 'sitting sideways'

[skypirate88]

This is a road that I would like to explore in the future so I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. If you have gone this route, what is your opinion. Hopefully both sides of the arguement show up

Cheers

[Hawkeye4077]

Make sure you sit straight or you could injure your spine.

[Meatservo]

Depends on where you are. If you're in the front seat, it's dangerous and stupid. In the second officers' position, it's the appropriate attitude.

Joking aside, I've worked with young fellas at a floatplane air service, who jumped at the chance to sit sideways at ACE or some other place, and are now in the left seat of the same aircraft, or working at Cathay, which is exactly what they wanted. I think if that's the kind of flying you like to do it makes as much sense to sit sideways in your first job as it does to fly a 185 as a first job if you want to be a twin otter captain someday. You'll have the same money issues as any other low timer, but at least you're in the ship instead of sweeping the hangar, you're going to sim, you're participating in the operation of the aircraft, and you're on the conveyor belt taking you to the left seat if the company doesn't go tits-up.

Good Luck.

[iflyforpie]

Better than ramp, more chances to upgrade, good exposure to big jet operations. IIRC WestJet will give you some credit for FE hours.

On the 727, the FE seat is the most comfortable one.

[skypirate88]

I am currently instructing and am planning to polish of the ATPL writtens early next week(just the SAMRA left) so I wouldn't say this would be my first job. I do however still consider myself a low time pilot and I don't plan on leaving for a little while. Kelowna FC is an interest of mine simply because of their YHM base, but I don't have a whole lot of information on the company(other than word of mouth)

[goaroundthrust]

Just make sure that the company that you are going to is keeping their 727 for a while since upgrade times can vary. Morningstar for example is getting rid of their 727 in the very near future ,so the guys and girls that have been sitting sideways for up to 3 years will never see the right seat.....

[Doc]

Better than ramp, more chances to upgrade, good exposure to big jet operations. IIRC WestJet will give you some credit for FE hours.

On the 727, the FE seat is the most comfortable one.

Pay attention here. Totally agree with the pie guy on this one. Sure, 727's are eventually going the way of the dodo bird. True. But it's WAY better than ANY ramp anywhere! Do it.

[Panama Jack]

My only regret is that I didn't do it this way. . . call it wasted youth.

The 727 is one of the coolest airplanes ever made and as a Flight Engineer (or Second Officer as they call it in Canada), you will be part of a Transport Category crew, learning, observing, and probably getting some better habits than flying single pilot in some airplane in the boondocks. Try to get in to fly these history making airplanes before they only remain a memory. Keep in mind that these jobs are heavily sought after by other low-time pilots also.

In the days when the 727 was the workhorse of the US airline industry, the FE 727 was the entry-level position for all pilots going to work at American, United, Northwest, TWA, etc. Not all that long ago!

[TopperHarley]

Better than ramp, more chances to upgrade, good exposure to big jet operations. IIRC WestJet will give you some credit for FE hours.

On the 727, the FE seat is the most comfortable one.

Pay attention here. Totally agree with the pie guy on this one. Sure, 727's are eventually going the way of the dodo bird. True. But it's WAY better than ANY ramp anywhere! Do it.

Can I get an "AMEN!"

A sideways seat is better than no seat at all.

If you like the company and can see yourself staying there for a few years, and if they pay well and treat employees good, then 2 years sitting sideways is not a bad move at all.

If you're offered a similar job in the right/left seat, then maybe you'll have some debating to worry about. But if a sideways seat is all you're offered, take it, get the experience, and keep applying elsewhere.

[CL-Skadoo!]

Let's say you have 500 hours and are offered that seat. Same advice? I'd be a little worried about the move to right seat and the inability to ever hold the left. The opportunities do exist for that scenario, so it might as well be discussed.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Doing a stint as an oiler is a great introduction to large jet SOP's and standards. It also means you will get a very solid background on the systems. The only caveat is you need to be upgradeable (ie have the ATPL and ideally some Multi PIC). I can think of a few guys I know who have gone from sideways to the right seat and have told me the experience they got in the back really helped them when they upgraded.

However I do not think it would be a good idea to go in the SO seat with only a couple of hundred hrs as you will never move up.

[iflyforpie]

To the OP. Even if KFC gets rid of their 27s, they just started up DC-10 operations so they should have the FE positions available for a while.

[tsgas]

To be a F/E it takes an AME license
To be a S/O it requires a CPL

[GRK]

Sat sideways on a wide body when Orange was the colour, and learned tons from the guys facing forward. What I learned still stays with me even on a CRM basis.( how not to act!) lots of great teachers and it helped learn how to fly to many great parts of the world. In addition I ended up with an FE ticket as the course was very thorough...still have it, and no you didn't need to be an AME to hold the FE part...Cheers!
GRK

[Liquid Charlie]

Going to am S/O position has been a reasonable way to go in the past - several things to consider. First you are not accumulating any flight time in your log book and all you are building is seniority this also means the company should have some experience in the first place and preferably go to a company that has a collective agreement and the S/O's are on the pilot seniority list. If not you could be passed over forever and be at a dead end. If you go to a place with only 727's ask if they have an upgrade program and don't ask how soon you will get a right seat -- that's like asking when the leafs will win the grey cup. The best situation if the company has smaller turboprops - then you can usually move over to that but be prepared for more than 2 years of being an oiler -

It seems like most operators are either in or planning towards fleet modernization - this make the S/O position a dead end without protection of seniority lists and experience to convert to a right seat. Some companies have an experience matrix in place and if you can't meet this requirement you will be laid off and layoffs will be based on experience and not seniority.

So yes take what you can get but S/O positions could be a bumpy road and a bit of a career waister if you find yourself back in a navaho 3 years down the line.

[Flaps 1 Billion]

A couple thoughts here. First, I would stay away from Morningstar, not that it's a bad company or anything, but they are phasing out their 727's over the next year meaning no upgrade, and no job. Second, having some time behind you will help for both a left seat upgrade and finding work should the company you move to shut down or park their old fleets.

You can certainly learn a lot from the back seat and in times of movement, you can find yourself in the right seat in short order. The pay is better than any 704 job, better working conditions and better skeds, I've done both. Just get ready for the long nights, it takes some time getting used to.

The company I work for has a seniority list and everyone is given a right seat by the order of their number, important yes, you don't want to go somewhere and get passed over.

I'll leave one last thought to consider. How long will it take for a right seat at one of these companies? Will you be able to get one before the 27's are retired or banned from flying? IF not, will you be left on the street with 300ish hours back at square one? It happened with some of the old Transat L1011 crews. Just something to think about.

[teacher]

I loved being an S/O and learned alot however I never got a chance to get upgraded because the company went bankrupt/shut down before I went to the right seat. I had lots of time prior so I was eventually able to land on my feet. The experience was great and the schedule in a 705 op was much better than you'd find in smaller operators. Just keep in mind you're not logging flight time so just make sure you will eventually get upgraded.

[Pugster]

Feel like I should contribute on this one.

The 727 is a fantastic airplane. In Canada, in Cargo Ops, it's not going anywhere for a while...at least until the aquisition costs of 757s drops significantly (my humble opinion...). It fills it's niche very well, at a very low entry cost, and parts are everywhere. You can buy a lot of gas for the difference in cost between a 757 and a 727...for now.

The position of SO is very important, and quite highly regarded among crews who have flown with them. A good SO can make a flight run seamlessly, and a bad one can turn it into a headache. It's similar to being the quarterback of a football team - you set the plays up and the rest of the team carries them out. That damn coach (aka: skipper) might have something to say every once and awhile - but as the SO, especially during an emergency, you're the one holding the ball. It might not add time to your logbook, but AFAIK it's a respected position if you decide to switch to self loading freight later on. Oh - and as an SO, contrary to what some have suggested, you can get endorsed as a "flight engineer" if you choose. You just need some hours (200?) in the back seat and you can get it done. No need to be an AME.

All that being said - I would not recommend the back seat to someone without the time to work elsewhere (lets say around 1000hrs minimum). Why? While cargo operators have hired low-time pilots for the back seat, there is no way to forecast the wait that you'll have for the upgrade (I have friends that waited 6 years) - and you could wind up sitting back there, minimal flying experience eroding away - and when the time comes for the upgrade you may have your hands overly full. Yes - the back seat is the perfect place to watch & learn how to fly a transport category jet - and yes - you will probably have opportunities to drive a sim around occasionally - and yes - you may get upgraded in a year...but there is a good chance you will sit sideways for a while too. 250 hours that are 5 years old is not an enviable position for a new FO in a jet that is largely hand flown and has minimal automation.

Did I say though that the '27 is great? I've never met a pilot who has flown one that doesn't remember it fondly. If you choose this route, best of luck, and maybe we'll see you on the line.

[skypirate88]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts, they seem to be in line with my own. By the end of the summer I should be able to meet all of the requirements for the ATPL so hopefully upgradability shouldn't be too much of an issue. Still quite a while before I will be able to move anywhere but I may as well start snooping.

Thanks again