PBS Frontline - Flying Cheap

[pianodude]

i quit in '94 because of the starvation wages and bullshit.... it saddens me that nothing has changed in 17 years.......

[Nark]

It has changed, just not on a large scale.

I'm days away from working for a company that treats the pilots well, and pays accordingly for our service.
I also got an invite for an interview with a regional just after I accepted this job, I had to turn it down because I wouldn't make it. Which is disappointing because I would love to show up, just to see the looks on their face when I tell them I'd work for you, but at X wage, not what they offer.

Don't confuse me with a Cat Driver, Doc, or any of the high time pilots here, I'm certainly not. However I'm experienced enough to know what I'm worth.

[Meatservo]

Unfortunately, deciding not to work unless you're paid what you're worth, and deciding to quit flying because of the poverty wages and B.S. are close to being the same thing for a lot of people. Hey that PBS show is on tomorrow, by the way. I'm trying to decide whether to watch it or not. I feel like I should, but on the other hand, my wife had to tell me to shut up while I was ranting and raving about the first time I saw that snake-in-the-grass Roger Cohen on TV.

[ScudRunner]

Bump - its on tonight check your TV schedule.

[BoostedNihilist]

Unfortunately, deciding not to work unless you're paid what you're worth, and deciding to quit flying because of the poverty wages and B.S. are close to being the same thing for a lot of people.

If only everyone was paid fully for the hours they worked, eh "meatservo"

[Meatservo]

Yeah I guess so, "Boosted Nihilist". It would be good if people got paid for the hours they worked. A lot of people get paid by the mile or by the flight hour, as you know, and at a cargo operation in order to log 6 hours of flying time you're frequently at work for 12 hours.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm sure it was intended as some kind of insult; my fault for not logging in before reading forum posts: you're on my "ignore" list.

[Hot Fuel]

Well looking forward to the comments on the show, I watched it and thought it was pretty enlightening.

Pay was not the cause of the regional problems being encountered in the states, they could pay the pilots 50 times more annually and it wouldn’t change the fact that the regionals or at least Colgan was operating large turbo prop aircraft with crews that had no business being in the seats they sat in.

Anybody want to hold up there hand and say they were ready and qualified to take the left seat job of a Saab 340 or Dash 8 with a grand total 9 months of flying experience and 510 hrs?

I think they identified the problem pretty clearly, the mainline carriers created the regional airline market as a tool to feed their fleet at a lower cost than they could. The mainline carriers put the pressure on the regionals to hold down costs so they can get the contracts that have supported there 50% industry growth.

The mainlines created the regional boom and the often talked about pilot shortage…well there you have it, 500 hrs 340 captains.

Little wonder Colgan had the accident, who’s next?

[nzkiwi]

Wow, Just finnished watching it, I hadn't realized that the financial situation of pilots could be that grim. I was rather surprised when the one pilot said he was asked by the company to be a check pilot on a plane which he had never flow and new next to nothing about. I'm curious to know what happened to the Pilot who filed the complaint against a Captain for falsifying the weight and balance.

[TopperHarley]

The mainlines created the regional boom and the often talked about pilot shortage…well there you have it, 500 hrs 340 captains.

Little wonder Colgan had the accident, who’s next?

500hrs would have been his on-type experience, not total time. Still far too low though.

Ive met RJ captains in the USA with about 1000hrs less total time than I have. Some regional airlines though like American Eagle have very experienced captains. Things will change I hope, but it will take time. Until the regionals start offering better pay and work conditions, they won't be able to find experienced pilots willing to stay with them for an extended period of time.

[Hot Fuel]

Actually the show was replaying (back to back) while I was typing my post and I rephrased what I was typing because it was right at the point were he said, I was upgraded to Captain 9 months into my 1st job just starting out my career with 510 hours, my co-pilot had 400 and something hours.

Nice pairing, the blind leading the wet behind the ears!

[Cougar]

Another fine presentation from Frontline...

And, I learned something tonight that I DIDN'T know...

apparently I, too, could be a check airman on the Dash 8.... never been in the seat, nope, no type, nope...

What a shameful way to run an operation.

I really can't imagine how those families can come to terms with their losses...

[iflyforpie]

Sure was funny to see those Big Airline big wigs make a hasty retreat when one of the senators suggested a bill be made so they would share the liability with the regionals.





Pretty sure we would see increases in minimum experience requirements and the new hires doping up on safety seminars and line in-docted by the parent airline's check captains in no time.

[Meatservo]

Hot Fuel, I have to disagree with your statement that pay is not the issue. It has to be at least an ancillary issue in my opinion. If they were paying 50 times more, or even twice as much, they wouldn't resort to putting such low-time people in the left seat; more experienced people would be willing to do the job.

[Nark]

The FAA has presented a noticed of proposed rule changes, requiring an ATP for co-pilots for 121 operations.

This isn't a reg yet, but they're asking the pluses and minuses of this change. Right now to sit right seat you need a com and instrument, plus appropriate class. ie multi.

I wasn't too impressed with the program.

The whole program vilified Colgan, who is no saint, however 3407 could have clearly been avoided based on the actions of the pilots.

I have to agree with the mainline's, why would they accept any liability for actions of code shares? That makes zero sense, other than to increase cost in overseeing training, logistics etc... At that point what it the purpose of the code share?

As far as experience in the left seat, it's simply supply and demand. What is the difference between a 2000hr, 500 on type new capt and a 3000hr direct entry?

Insightful, certainly. Unfortunately I think it falls on deaf ears, only us in the industry.

[Mister]

It is funny how this industry goes. I remember when I was just starting out, I had a whole whopping 250 hours, and another guy beat me to a Ho job by 30 hrs. He seemed so confident! He was quite smug about his ability after graduating Coastal Pacific. I thought maybe because I didn't go through a college program I was inferior to to him. OK I have to admit, deep inside me I felt not ready to get into that position as much as I wanted it. To be honest, looking back, I wasn't ready. I don't think he was either. You have to realize we have a few factors at play here. First, the immaturity of the guy who thinks he is ready. Second, the company who thinks he is because of the payroll factor. Also, if the standards set forth by TC says you are ready to be a Captain, are you?

Honestly, What is the employer looking for? You pass your ride, you are captain. That is how our industry goes. Captains? a left seat ride will fast track you to the Captains seat...it is a ride the determines our fate.

These guys portrayed in this Frontline documentary were in the same position...if they felt they weren't ready...say no! But who says that in this industry? I know people who would sell their mother for a left seat.
The other fella who was living for $20 bucks a day? He had control of that. He wasn't a victim! he put himself ahead of everything else.

I was lucky....so far. I have always work for a good living. I have never sold my first born for a job. It sickens me to know others have. You have a choice...

Maybe in Canada it is a little different, but there are those who will do anything to get ahead. Just remember, any time you take a easy cut to a left seat, the industry suffers a little bit. Please, the next time you bad mouth a company that wants 5000 hrs multi-turbine time to apply, it is for good reason.

fly safe.

[fingersmac]

I have to agree with the mainline's, why would they accept any liability for actions of code shares?

Because their name is plastered on the side of the airplane, boarding pass, ticket, gate, etc. There should be a shared liability. Maybe then mainline carriers will think long and hard about who handles their flying.

[Localizer]

Nark wrote:
I have to agree with the mainline's, why would they accept any liability for actions of code shares?

Fingersmac wrote:
Because their name is plastered on the side of the airplane, boarding pass, ticket, gate, etc. There should be a shared liability. Maybe then mainline carriers will think long and hard about who handles their flying.

Point 1:
I believe the major's should be held liable for the mistakes of there contracted airlines. This would help force the contractor to play by the rules, and help alleviate pressure on inspector's (4000 inspectors for 25000 flights per day). Also it will help add another layer of protection by ensuring safety "is" point 1. Because if they don't ... there name will be on the lawsuit.

Point 2:
What I can't understand is why nobody has mentioned the pink elephant in the room. The FAA has a responsibility to ensure the safety of the travelling public. The FAA looked more like an employee of all the airlines. The head of the FAA, standing on the "ValuJet killing fields" touting ValuJet as a safe, responsible, airline. If the government agency isn't doing its job enforcing the rules .. then how can you expect the airline's to follow them?????

Experience reduces risk ... risk cost money ... money buys experience.

Corporate greed and the mighty dollar will always trump a human life. Sad.

[iflyforpie]

The head of the FAA, standing on the "ValuJet killing fields" touting ValuJet as a safe, responsible, airline. If the government agency isn't doing its job enforcing the rules .. then how can you expect the airline's to follow them?????

The funny thing was, the crash wasn't really Valujet's fault. It wasn't pilot error or bad maintenance that brought it down; but mislabeled hazardous materials (O2 generators) and the FAA's lack of a requirement for cargo hold fire suppression systems on the aircraft in question.

[Tanker299]

.

[hawker driver]

I have to agree with the mainline's, why would they accept any liability for actions of code shares?

Because their name is plastered on the side of the airplane, boarding pass, ticket, gate, etc. There should be a shared liability. Maybe then mainline carriers will think long and hard about who handles their flying.

I couldn't agree more.

As few years back when the Ford Bronco's had the tire blow outs everyone sued Ford along with the tire manufacture. Since it was Ford who sold the vehicle and put the faulty tires on the Broncos. So why shouldn't the Major Airlines share some of the responsibility since they chose the lowest bidder to do the flying for them and put the pax who paid them on those aircraft.

[Localizer]

The funny thing was, the crash wasn't really Valujet's fault. It wasn't pilot error or bad maintenance that brought it down; but mislabeled hazardous materials (O2 generators) and the FAA's lack of a requirement for cargo hold fire suppression systems on the aircraft in question.

Check that ... my misunderstanding. There are more examples in that program of the FAA pulling the same card in other accidents, ones related to airline deficency. For the CEO of Pinnicale to tell the father of a crash victim, that the industry has "been fixed" ... How do you tell a bold face lie like that, to a man who lost his daughter on an aircraft you operate?? How does a man like that sleep on his $49,000.00 vividus mattress?!?!

http://most-expensive.net/bed-mattress

Just incase you don't believe me ....

[viccoastdog]

he funny thing was, the crash wasn't really Valujet's fault. It wasn't pilot error or bad maintenance that brought it down; but mislabeled hazardous materials (O2 generators) and the FAA's lack of a requirement for cargo hold fire suppression systems on the aircraft in question.

Correct to a point...the hazardous goods were mislabelled by ValuJet employees, so ValuJet is indeed at fault to a large extent.

So to compare to Canadian airlines pay there pilots only when the door closes? or do you get paid for your duty time? (704-705 i know 703 is cheap)

Can't say for 704/705, but in my little world of 703 experience pay is all over the map - some get very low pay and others are making near $90 000 per annum, with quite different ways of being paid, be it hourly, mileage, base day rate, even monthly salary.

[Cougar]

I have to agree with the mainline's, why would they accept any liability for actions of code shares?

Because their name is plastered on the side of the airplane, boarding pass, ticket, gate, etc. There should be a shared liability. Maybe then mainline carriers will think long and hard about who handles their flying.

fingersmac, you have an ally in Jeffrey Skiles... here are his sharp comments about the airline industry:

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/952220.html

[moreccsplease]

I apologize if I wasn't clear enough in my original post.

I'm an anti-union guy, and I agree the union had 0 to do with the accident, but that is not what I'm getting at.

What I was eluding too, is that two comparable airlines, one union one not, both have the same benefits and track record (for the most part), however the one with the union hasn't really done much to help in the pay and benefits department. Roger Cohen is just a businessman making a buck.

Colgan had joined ALPA almost right before the crash occurred. And I second the notion, ALPA is a great union that does excellent work for all pilots, ALPA pilots or not.

['effin hippie]

Jesus, this happened in the land of the lawsuit.
You can bet dollars to donuts that the mainline involved here (Continental?) is going to get sued, along with Colgan, Bombardier, the FAA and the f***ing caterer.

Some of those suits will stick, some won't. I imagine Colgan will lose a large sum, and will be in court with its insurer for a while to come as well. I'm not familiar with the language of code share agreements, but there must be some language in them about the feeder company maintaining proper standards and blah blah blah. Maybe there's language about the mainline having proper oversight, maybe not. Any legal experts wanna weigh in?

Mostly this is still about two people screwing up big time. It's arguable that Colgan had a duty to train to a higher standard, however, clearly the guys captaincy was obtained within the letter of regulations, and you can also bet he didn't go knocking on the CP's door saying he wasn't quite clear on the stall recovery procedure, so maybe that upgrade ought to wait a little bit.

Maybe it's cheaper for regionals to pay everyone way more. Probably its cheaper for them to significantly raise the training standards and leave the pay alone. Nobody wants accidents, the question for operators is how to mitigate risk as inexpensively as possible.

Anyway for those of you wondering what will happen with pay and conditions, let me lay it out for you: Pilot supply continues to outstrip demand; pay and conditions will continue to deteriorate until supply drops sufficiently to meet demand; the market will overshoot and after bottoming out will improve a bit compared to the bottom. Eventually we will all be replaced by robots, starting at regional/mainline carriers and ending much later with the bush guys; a very few human pilots will remain in rarefied, boutique niches as a kind of artisan. Just like every other industry on the planet, it's called progress. That is all.