Any hope for new class 4's instructors

[bluenote]

Hi guys

Recently renewed the class 4 without any employment since I got the rating last year. Any ads for any instructor that I see is for a class 3 or higher. Is it because nobody wants to supervise class 4's or not enough class 1s in the training units.

I'm in it for the long haul *career instructor* but I think maybe I shouldn't pursue it further.

frustrated bluenote

[goldwing]

Don't give up total hope. The reason the postings may be looking for class 3s or higher is that they may not have a class 1 or 2 to supervise you, or they don't want to bother. Hard to say. Apply for the position even if they are looking for 3s or higher. When and if you get a chance to talk to anyone show some of the reasons why you started flying in the first place. Do show that you want to get ahead and work you way up the classes. Be open to some charter flights if the school has that. Remember, it only takes one yes to get started. Go back to where you got your rating and try to get on there if able.

[bluenote]

goldwing, thanks for the kind words.

There is no hope whatsoever where I finished my rating. They were kind enough to finish my rating as I was having difficulties at the other school where I began it. Can't say enough thanks for the school that finished me. But really I am getting to the point where I am starting to believe that I might never get a chance and that is a bit sad for me as I want to continue to climb up the different classes and hope to become a class 1 one day but I might never get a chance to even instruct at all!!

I applied over and over. I tried.

[Doc]

Another example of the problem with having to be tied to an FTU. An instructor who actually "wants" to instruct as a long term thing. Something the instructing profession dearly needs. But he must be "supervised" by an FTU. Why? If he has passed the mandated TC instructor's course. If his students are somehow "below par", isn't that the responsibility of a DFTE to pick up? He could "team up" with a Class 3 and freelance? But, no it's not allowed. How would it make instructing less "professional" if you allowed a class 4 to instruct on private aircraft? "Here's your ticket son, but you can't actually use it....." I can see the need for more experience instructors to teach new instructors, but if you've done your job, the new instructor should really be able to instruct.
Why are there FOUR levels of instructors(I can buy 2) in the first place? Either you are an instructor.....or you are not.

[ETOPS]

Just curious, where abouts in Canada are you located bluenote? Where did you finish your rating and where have you been applying?
[Not looking for specifics if you'd rather keep it confidential]

[Cat Driver]

Doc, why in TF are you asking such logical questions about flight training?

Try what I tried some years ago.

Contact the head of flight training in Ottawa, once communications are set up continue trying to communicate on a level that uses logic and see where it gets you.

[Lurch]

Doc, why in TF are you asking such logical questions about flight training?

Try what I tried some years ago.

Contact the head of flight training in Ottawa, once communications are set up continue trying to communicate on a level that uses logic and see where it gets you.

See Cat there's your problem

You're trying to put TC and Logic together

Lurch

[bluenote]

I trained West of Toronto and applied from St. Catharines to London to as far east so far to Oshawa and in between.

If and that is a big IF I get a job and I will be happy with a part time job as well I plan to be there permanently , am in my 40's and looking to settle down. Along with my new class 4 (almost 9 months ago) I can bring 20 years of working the ramp so I can also do many other things including charter if there is and if not not a problem for me .

If I can't find anything over the spring time or early summer I'll pack it in.

Doc thanks for understanding. I don't know why TC even gives out class 4s if they don't let you instruct independently or like Doc said side by side with a class 3 so you can be employable a little more easier.

my 2 cents

bluenote

[Invertago]

I trained West of Toronto and applied from St. Catharines to London to as far east so far to Oshawa and in between.
bluenote

If you're not tied down... there is alot more Canada outside of Southern Ontario.

[Doc]

bluenote....check your PM's

[Bede]

Another example of the problem with having to be tied to an FTU. An instructor who actually "wants" to instruct as a long term thing. Something the instructing profession dearly needs. But he must be "supervised" by an FTU. Why? If he has passed the mandated TC instructor's course. If his students are somehow "below par", isn't that the responsibility of a DFTE to pick up? He could "team up" with a Class 3 and freelance? But, no it's not allowed. How would it make instructing less "professional" if you allowed a class 4 to instruct on private aircraft? "Here's your ticket son, but you can't actually use it....." I can see the need for more experience instructors to teach new instructors, but if you've done your job, the new instructor should really be able to instruct.
Why are there FOUR levels of instructors(I can buy 2) in the first place? Either you are an instructor.....or you are not.

For the same reason's doctors go through residency. They're good enough to be an MD, but still need someone to watch over them. Same reason there are FO's- licenced, but need some coaching, and the same reason no one will let me fly a Twin Otter on amphibs even though I have a float rating. Perhaps you and Cat could skip a couple levels of the instructor rating, but most 250hr wonders can't; they need all the coaching they can get.

As for the OP. Someone with a class 4 walked into our flying club the other day- same situation as you. Local resident, working a non aviation job. It just so happened we needed someone and we hired her a couple says later.

[Cat Driver]

Perhaps you and Cat could skip a couple levels of the instructor rating, but most 250hr wonders can't; they need all the coaching they can get.

I can't respond to Doc's situation but for me personally the skipping levels of an instructors rating is redundant as TCCA not only have refused to allow me to be the owner of a FTU-OC they have actively refused to approve any training done by me in Canada.

In the end it benefited me as was forced to work outside of Canada in countries that followed the law and did not discriminate against people based on who they are.

Words to describe my revulsion for TCCA's flight training department fail me.....well actually I know the words but I get enough posts binned here already.

[L1011]

I know 2 new Class 4's that got hired in the last month at a flight school in the GTA. So yes, there is hope for new Class 4 Instructors

Good Luck!

[Hedley]

There are airports (and flight schools) that exist outside
the so-called "greater" toronto area.

As a pilot, you may occasionally have to travel, both to
find work, and as part of the job.

[Dagwood]

The GTA is saturated with instructors. With several flight schools, and everyone wanting to get the job "close to home", there is no shortage of Class 4's. Besides, a lot of places only hire in-house. That way the CFI knows what kind of person he is going to have work for him. Either that, or the new instructors have an "in", someone who knows the CFI and puts in a good word.

I'm sure the class 4's L1011 speaks of had an "in". That's how it's done.

I was going to repost a thread from a little while ago, only to find it is from the same original poster. It might be good to reread it.... stuff hasn't changed yet.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59332&start=0

[bluenote]

so Dagwood, I might as well just rip up my class 4 because there is no way the school that finished my rating will hire me. And you are right about schools hiring their own that they trained. This is my worry that I will never find an instructing job and I want to do it permanently as a career and move up the ranks of a Class 1.

Where is my shredder I mean resume.

[L1011]

so Dagwood, I might as well just rip up my class 4 because there is no way the school that finished my rating will hire me. And you are right about schools hiring their own that they trained. This is my worry that I will never find an instructing job and I want to do it permanently as a career and move up the ranks of a Class 1.

Where is my shredder I mean resume.

Now hold on, the two that I know that got hired recently both DID NOT do their training at the school they got hired at. One of them as Dagwood put it "had an in" but the other was simply determined and showed enough persistence to get hired.

[MichaelP]

It's a quantity problem.

There are too few Class II or I instructors... They've usually moved on.
There are too many Class IV instructors...
You have trained for a profession that has too few new spaces.

I resisted doing the Class II instructor rating as it would have meant a reduced income while my responsibility was increased at the school I was at.
I know other Class III instructors who do not want their Class II rating because it costs effort and money for a poorer situation afterwards.
Until schools recognise and pay Class II instructors properly for their responsibilities few will be attracted to moving up, so to speak!

As a career instructor I myself can see the termination of this career within a year or so... At my age I need to earn my pension and that is going to mean leaving this profession I like too much, and even leaving Canada.
I intend to make a success of what I have first of course, I never like to leave a job undone.

Class II and I instructors need to be up and coming pilots with time for a real job later, or retired pilots who wish to give something back and enjoy their old age.

It's the age old problem of insufficient compensation for the level achieved.

[Invertago]

Only incentive for going class two is more time between renewals.

[Hedley]

You guys gotta learn to negotiate with your school! You
should get a pay raise when you move from a 3 to a 2
because you can now supervise 4's and act as CFI.

If you're not getting paid for it, well, you're leaving
money on the table.

IMHO as soon as you are qualified, move up! Move
up to a 2. Move up to a 1. Get those qualifications
and use them to your advantage.

Schools need 2's and 1's. You just need to figure
out how to make them pay you for it

Another way of looking at it ... if you upgrade from
your 3 to a 2, you should be paid the same as a
completely different class 2 instructor that had just
walked in the door.

Your FTU will try to pretend that isn't so, but that
doesn't mean they can get away with it. However,
they will if you let them.

[YOWza]

Another example of the problem with having to be tied to an FTU. An instructor who actually "wants" to instruct as a long term thing. Something the instructing profession dearly needs. But he must be "supervised" by an FTU. Why? If he has passed the mandated TC instructor's course. If his students are somehow "below par", isn't that the responsibility of a DFTE to pick up? He could "team up" with a Class 3 and freelance? But, no it's not allowed. How would it make instructing less "professional" if you allowed a class 4 to instruct on private aircraft? "Here's your ticket son, but you can't actually use it....." I can see the need for more experience instructors to teach new instructors, but if you've done your job, the new instructor should really be able to instruct.
Why are there FOUR levels of instructors(I can buy 2) in the first place? Either you are an instructor.....or you are not.

If things were done here like the FAA does them it might be different. In the US, the instructor candidate can be in the briefing room for hours teaching and explaining all the PPL and CPL exercises for the ground portion of the test. Then all those things have to be flown in a complex airplane to boot. At the end of this 5 or 6 hour deal, the examiner can safely determine if the candidate is a pass and ready to instruct students. On your Class IV ride in Canada, you teach usually just 1 thing, which does not really give an examiner a good exhibition of your abilities. You spend maybe 0.7-1.0 flight time in a fixed/fixed plane. Sometimes candidates don't even leave the circuit for their flight test!
Because you haven't been fully evaluated, it makes sense to require supervision in order to help ensure proper instruction until the experience requirements are met to upgrade. In schools with poor supervision(I'll keep these places nameless), I have seen first hand what happens when junior instructors are not being watched. Main teaching points get lost, bad information gets passed, good students take too long to get finished, and slow students don't get the proper help that they need.
As far as the DFTE goes, I disagree with the notion that it is her/her job to pick out your students' problems. You state that you have brought them to standards when you sign the recommend. The DFTE only sees a couple hours of your students' performance while you see the bulk of it.
I do agree that "career" instructors are what's needed badly. Until major changes are made by both pilots and the managers, that won't happen.

[Cat Driver]

I do agree that "career" instructors are what's needed badly. Until major changes are made by both pilots and the managers, that won't happen.

To attract and keep career instructors the first thing that has to change is the pay.

A career instructor should earn in the $100,000.00 per year bracket.

Get rid of the need for the farcical FTU-OC and allow flight instructors to instruct without that anchor around their necks.

[YOWza]

I do agree that "career" instructors are what's needed badly. Until major changes are made by both pilots and the managers, that won't happen.

To attract and keep career instructors the first thing that has to change is the pay.

A career instructor should earn in the $100,000.00 per year bracket.

Get rid of the need for the farcical FTU-OC and allow flight instructors to instruct without that anchor around their necks.

I'd agree so long as the testing standards for a FI would cover many exercises and critical knowledge areas. Really weed out the people just trying to slide through. If the candidate could have a chance to prove that he/she is talented and deserves to instruct pilots without someone over their shoulder, then this Class IV-FTU thing could be history.

[MichaelP]

At some schools a Class II gets an additional couple of dollars increase in flight and briefing pay and they might even give the supervisory instructor a few dollars for each student being supervised.
But there's the time factor in supervising and the responsibility. Each Class IV and student takes a certain amount of time to process, time the Class II would be better off with his/her own student, so why bother being a Class II in the first place?
You earn a couple of dollars an hour less as a Class III but you are able to bill more hours as you are not sidetracked to supervise...
In other words the additional money for a Class II is not sufficient to make supervision worthwhile above and beyond teaching your own students.

$100,000 a year would be nice, but you'll get the Britain/Europe situation with people going to the USA to do their training as it's cheaper.
As my famous ATAC person said, if we pay instructors a 'legal' wage we will no longer be competitive.

There's no answer to this conundrum.
We are in the profession not for the money... When we need money we must leave this profession.

[Cat Driver]

It is easy to increase your pay teaching flying Michael.

Buy yourself an affordable tail wheel airplane and just teach licensed pilots.

You can make $100.00 per flight hour.

It costs around $50.00 per hour to operate it, you charge $150.00 per hour and bingo you make $100.00 per hour.

It is that simple.

No FTU B.S.

Very little overhead.

No need to explain what you are doing to the TC drones.