A word of warning...

[Diadem]

For anyone intending to apply at West Coast Air, you should know that the hiring policies have changed this year. All captains now require 500 hours of float PIC, Twin captains need time-on-type, and FOs need 270 hours minimum.This means the traditional route of dockhand-FO-Beaver-Twin captain is entirely disrupted, and it's almost impossible to advance within the company. FOs have to leave the company to get the float PIC time, and anyone hoping to get on as a Twin captain without previous time on type will have to work for at least a season as a first officer, at $14/hour. Dockhands will either have to have 270 hours, or have a good plan on how to get it, and they fall second in line to anyone with a PPC in order to save costs on training. The company is now a place to end one's career, not gain experience; it's no longer a training company.

[compilot]

Same with North Cariboo. All of the new jobs are contrails plus, and unless you have a ton of MPIC you will never get upgraded. Another place that guys use to be able to work from the ramp up, but King Air FO's are now required to have 450TT and 200 Multi.

Its getting pretty hard for a new pilot to get into the industry.

[TG]

So basically you are complaining that some companies are looking for actual flying experiences.
And that they doesn't consider ramp or dock as a necessity step ladder to get in anymore

[FlaplessDork]

It's their business they can do what they want. Its your life you can do what you want. When times are tough for pilots this stuff happens. Soon as things get better they will start loosing people and change things back.

[whiteguy]

Same with North Cariboo. All of the new jobs are contrails plus, and unless you have a ton of MPIC you will never get upgraded. Another place that guys use to be able to work from the ramp up, but King Air FO's are now required to have 450TT and 200 Multi.

Its getting pretty hard for a new pilot to get into the industry.

Blame "Contrail" not Cariboo. When "Contrail" is 90% of your business what do you expect?

[Diadem]

So basically you are complaining that some companies are looking for actual flying experiences.
And that they doesn't consider ramp or dock as a necessity step ladder to get in anymore

I'm not complaining; I meet their requirements. I just didn't think it would be fair to some young dockhand trying to get on the Twin, or a first officer hoping to make captain in a couple of years to get their MPIC, to take a job where they likely wouldn't make any advancement.

[Bushav8er]

Actually, those mins still sound low to me, basically thats straight out of school and in a right seat - no thanks, and I would still insist on ramp/dock first - prove to me you deserve the job, show me your 'character' not your logbook.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think it is good they are being honest on what they want, and not stringing pilots along with upgrade promises they do not intend to honor. Frankly I think folks complaining about how this policy affects their chance for advancing are being whiny. They run a business, so the only question that matters is, does the advantage of having more experienced pilots out weigh the advantages of having an in house advancement scheme (presumably putting someone into the seat who is a known quantity vs an outside hire). They have made a business decison and the ultimate success (or not) of that decsion will become apparent. If the policy is changed back it won't be because they want to give wannebe's a break it will because they think it is in their best interest.

One of the things I tell all the fresh CPL's is they have to make a mental shift. Up to now flying has all been about them. When they get their first job they have to understand that the point of the exercise is to get the airplane from point A to point B in the most cost effective , operationally efficient , and safe manner possible. Whether or not the the pilot finds personal enjoyment in the flight is a wholy irrelevant consideration. Flying is no longer about what you want, the only thing that matters is whether the tool (aka the airplane) is making money or not.

I would also note that working for West Coast means you are working for an outfit flying OK equipement on a predicatable schedule and you get to live in the big city. Most float/bush guys I know got their start on the dock in some S***hole fly infested Northern Town, working 16 hr days 7 days a week. I have no time for 200 hr wannebes saying they want to live the "float flying" dream, but are not interested in giving up their morning Starbucks triple shot skinny mocha latte .......

Nobody owes you a job or advancement...get used to it....Rant Over.

[Invertago]

FO's need 270hrs total time or float time? 270TT seems a little too low.

[Diadem]

FO's need 270hrs total time or float time? 270TT seems a little too low.

No, 270 TT. Considering they used to hire with nothing more than a commercial, multi, and floats, it's a step up. That doesn't seem too much of a stretch for a Twin Otter, and a position which amounts to little more than a legal requirement.
I'm not criticizing the company in any way; all the best to them for doing what's required to gain more business and sign more contracts. This thread is in no way intended to reprimand the company for altering it's policies. I just don't want to see a bunch of young pilots join WCA with the hopes of getting some easy MPIC time in the near future. A lot of the Beaver pilots and FOs, especially those who came from Borek in the hope to get on the Beaver and get some PIC time, are now SOL and looking for a way out. The company is no longer a ladder, and that should in no way be taken as a critique; it means they want pilots who are experienced and planning on staying on the aircraft they fly for the rest of their career, rather than dropping ten grand on a PPC and watching the pilot walk away at the end of the season.

[Doc]

Actually, those mins still sound low to me, basically thats straight out of school and in a right seat - no thanks, and I would still insist on ramp/dock first - prove to me you deserve the job, show me your 'character' not your logbook.

What you really mean is, supply me with some cheap labour, and suck up for a flight position.
1972 called. They want their way of doing business back...

[Bushav8er]

Actually, those mins still sound low to me, basically thats straight out of school and in a right seat - no thanks, and I would still insist on ramp/dock first - prove to me you deserve the job, show me your 'character' not your logbook.

What you really mean is, supply me with some cheap labour, and suck up for a flight position.
1972 called. They want their way of doing business back...

Not at all Doc. There are several trades out there that require 4 years of school and so many years of apprenticeship before they start their trade - why is it pilots have a sense of entitlement? 270 hrs total is nothing and they can't be meaningfully employed due to insurance requirements in most cases. They should still be paid fairly and treated with respect, not as a source of cheap labour. Prove yourself and I'd respond in kind, again fairly, but show up late/leave early, whine, dodge or pass the work off and someone else can gamble on them.

A pilot could have 1000+ hrs and still have no character or work ethics. I prefer a screening process before 'investing' in them to far but with that much time most 'trust' that that process was done by others and take them on good faith.

There is a reason they call it the "Good" old days.

[xsbank]

Those "several trades" have their apprentices actually doing the work they were trained for, not doing ramp work and loading bags, cleaning crappers etc. If you are an apprentice electrician you work with an electrician and you do electrician stuff. Your old "show your character" bullsh*t is fine if you pay the "apprentice" properly and he spends his time being mentored in an aircraft, but again I call your hand, you are using the "apprentice" pilot for cheap labour, you are exploiting him if he does not go on every flight that he can go on with a training captain and he does not have the same schedule as a training captain.

Go into the local village or the EI office and hire a dock-hand for a fair wage, hire a low-time-pilot because you are going to check him out. Otherwise you are just part of the problem.

That's why your operation is "1972."

[Bushav8er]

Most of the float operators are small family businesses. To them it makes sense to see that everyone knows (most) of the aspects of it. Pilots should know all aspects of the aviation side as it relates to the job and show imitative in other areas. If I were to leave for a few days I would know things would run fine and trust the staff.

If you think a pilot can sit by and watch the other pilot prepare his aircraft, fuel it, load it etc, even with a non-pilot dockhand employed, you're wrong. It also makes business sense when camp work is required - even if you employ and send someone to do it. The pilot has to go and has to wait there until the work is complete anyway - should he not help? Helping out in all company areas is 'doing your job'.

Even when hiring non-pilots for the dock work, pilots are still expected to show initiative.

So for the 270 hr pilot, if they are employable - will be instructed all aspects of the aviation related work, and fly when able.

The 1000+ hr pilot will be shown all aspects of the job, be responsible for the aircraft, flight planning and flying.

Dock hands are for grounds work and assist the pilots. Its a team effort, and all should be treated with respect.

if you pay the "apprentice" properly and he spends his time being mentored in an aircraft, but again I call your hand, you are using the "apprentice" pilot for cheap labour, you are exploiting him if he does not go on every flight

So, the aircraft is certified for 1 pilot and and the insurance won't allow a 270 hr pilot to act as Captain; How much should we pay him? And for what? Should they not be earning it as they are mentored? At this stage they are still basically 'in school' learning the next steps, probably why some say - 'they should be paying us'. So yes, they would learn within their field ie. the dock, and fly when able but I would not have them cutting the grass etc. But again, if they sit on their a** and watch others, whine when not flying (no room on the flight) - they will be shown the door for their 'poor character'.

[xsbank]

.

[Doc]

Aviation has an apprenticeship program built in. It's called the RIGHT SEAT!!! If your dock/ramp program includes riding as a "swamper"(and getting stick time) on the aircraft HE has just loaded and fueled, then good on you. Otherwise it's taking advantage of cheap labour.

[just curious]

Perhaps it's just me, but I think Big Pistons and Bushaviator are missing the point.

By imposing a new higher limit, without a grandfather clause for the current employees, there will be a bunch of pilots who will have to leave the company to obtain the desired hours for the next position.

The traditional route at the company was, I'm guessing, Dock- F/O -Cessna- Beaver-DHC-6 Captain. The sixty or so hours difference between their new demanded experience level and a newly minted Commercial MIFR float-rated pilot is negligible in terms or augmented skills and decision-making. And a guy who had driven for the company for 5 years getting to left seat in the DHC-6 is gonna be more effective than an off the street driver unfamiliar with the operation.

Which begs the point... why the switch? I expect it may be simply a way to bypass their agreement with the union they now have. Now, at least, a simple policy change has the effect of forcing out the drivers in the company who aren't Twin captains.

[iflyforpie]

There are several trades out there that require 4 years of school and so many years of apprenticeship before they start their trade - why is it pilots have a sense of entitlement?

I am an AME and went through school and apprenticeship. Guess where I started? Working on airplanes and not just the shit jobs either. The first multi-engined aircraft I ever started up was a 727 as a year-two apprentice.

270 hrs total is nothing and they can't be meaningfully employed due to insurance requirements in most cases.

So they work the dock so they can gain flight hours?

270hrs may be squat, but it is enough to fly a plane. I was flying a high performance single commercially with 270 hrs TT, and ferrying a twin around by myself (non-revenue) at just over 300 TT with 0 hours dock/ramp...

They should still be paid fairly and treated with respect, not as a source of cheap labour. Prove yourself and I'd respond in kind, again fairly, but show up late/leave early, whine, dodge or pass the work off and someone else can gamble on them.

This goes with any job, from fry boy at McDonalds to Fortune 500 CEO. There is no need to 'learn' this languishing on a dock. In fact I'm willing to bet that there is a pretty good work-ethic in the dockhand market, given the desperation of low-time pilots to get even near an aircraft and the wholesale exploitation of these people by the industry.

There is a reason they call it the "Good" old days.

If these are the bad new days because I never worked ramp or dock, I'll take them! I didn't need a year or two to be 'taught' how to self-start or be proactive. My boss hardly ever told me to do anything...

[Cat Driver]

270hrs may be squat, but it is enough to fly a plane. I was flying a high performance single commercially with 270 hrs TT, and ferrying a twin around by myself (non-revenue) at just over 300 TT with 0 hours dock/ramp..

To add to what iflyforpie wrote I also never had to work the ramp or the dock to get a flying position.

I was hired as a pilot with 252 hours T.T. , the company gave me a 25 hour flying course on aerial application so at 277 hours T.T. I flew my first flight as a well paid pilot by spraying a tobacco field for tobacco horn worm.

With all due respect to those who think flying requires digging shit holes and manual labor on a dock I personally do not agree.

[Bushav8er]

I was going to leave this alone but first I'll say again we had local, non-pilot dock/camp workers. That the new pilot assist, in direct aviation related duties - ASSIST on the dock, NOT work the dock - be paid and treated fairly, and with respect. Heck I've worked places where I wasn't a dockhand either BUT I assisted. On slow days I even painted, hammered, washed aircraft, worked on outboards etc. Frequently without being asked and sometimes on 'days off', I wouldn't feel good about myself if I just sat and watched. I'm talking about Team work not a 'class' system.

My remarks were about the 270hr comment and not the company in question?.
Now let me ask;

Insurance dictates things these days. A 270 hr pilot isn't even insurable for solo non-rev flights until they have min. time on type and floats and so much dual.
Seems everyone is saying -

- no dock work (or camp, lodge etc; they're a pilot after all),
- put them in the right seat and train.
- pay them a fair wage.

All before even being qualified for solo.

Is that what everyone suggesting?

[Scuba_Steve]

Same with North Cariboo. All of the new jobs are contrails plus, and unless you have a ton of MPIC you will never get upgraded. Another place that guys use to be able to work from the ramp up, but King Air FO's are now required to have 450TT and 200 Multi.

Its getting pretty hard for a new pilot to get into the industry.

I'm pretty sure we still hiring from within for those spots whenever the opportunity arises. I find it funny that its getting pretty hard to be a new pilot in this industry, when I was a newly minted Com/multi/IFR, it was almost unheard of to get into the right seat of a King Air with 250hrs ... now its the norm. Times change I guess! We're in a slow period, give it some time and things will start moving again. It seemed like they were giving upgrades out like candy 18 months ago! (to the deserving )

I've said this to plenty of our ground staff hoping to get into a seat, and I'll say it here. If you want to get into a seat quickly, fly lots, and become a captain in as short an amount a time as possible, go north. Get as far away from the oil patch and contrail as possible!

Cheers

[ScudRunner]

Totally agree all the guys and gals whining that they can't get upgrades because they did not want to move from the city, Sorry no sympathy go north fly your bag off have a ton of fun and Contrails etc won't effect you down the line.
I must be getting old I remember ads for 4000 hour Navajo jobs, not to long ago when times where good F/O where complaining that the company was screwing them over because they had 1300 hours and not made Captain yet. Son let me tell you a story "back in my day" the story usually began

[Carrier]

Quote: "....the company gave me a 25 hour flying course on aerial application....."

That's quite an investment by the company. Its management must have believed in training its employees properly, and paying and treating them decently. I trust it paid off for them. Sadly those days are long gone.

Nowadays the attitude of most 703/704 companies is to train to minimum standards to get the serf to scrape through a PPC ride. The fact that he has not been trained to competence is irrelevant.

This cheap attitude carries through in all aspects of employee relations. It usually results because the company has no management competence. This is because TC does not have any sort of requirement for management competence in the people who run the operation. So many chief pilots and directors of operations are vivid examples of The Peter Principle. They may be excellent pilots with massive experience but when it comes to management they are dunces. Others are in those positions because they were unable to obtain their "rightful" career jobs as highly paid big iron drivers and that is the best they can get. They have bitter and twisted attitudes and take it out on their staff.

The 703/704 level has an almost medieval attitude towards employees. The fact that it is not worse is due to two things: the remaining influence from when Transport Canada used to provide a decent inspection and enforcement service and the threat of the litigation society. Too many companies do only the necessary minimum to avoid this and neglect taking the long term view towards managing their businesses.

I do not see it changing until the economy picks up and there is a substantially increased demand for pilots.

The situation that started this thread is an example of how to demotivate a group of employees. They cannot be blamed if they now have a less than enthusiastic attitude towards their employer. Expect the service levels to deteriorate and the maintenance and other costs to go up. Who is going to do the extra bit or have a long term caring attitude towards the equipment after such dirty treatment? Did the company's "management" not think of the implications of such an act or of a better way to implement a fundamental change in HR policies? Obviously not as yet again they have demonstrated The Peter Principle in action in Canada's aviation industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peter_Principle

[Cat Driver]

Quote: "....the company gave me a 25 hour flying course on aerial application....."

That's quite an investment by the company. Its management must have believed in training its employees properly, and paying and treating them decently. I trust it paid off for them. Sadly those days are long gone.

Yes carrier there was a time when companies understood the value of proper training and weeding out those who were not to their standards by determining their suitability in an airplane instead of how they dig shit holes or manual labor.

Here is a short story I wrote some time ago that outlines how I got my first job.





The Tobacco Fields - By . .

For generations the farmers of southern Ontario have planted cared for harvested and cured tobacco in a small area on the northern shores of lake Erie. Our part in this very lucrative cash crop was aerial application of fertilizers and pesticides better known as crop dusting.

At the end of the twentieth century this form of farming is slowly dying due to the ever-increasing movement of the anti-smoking segment of society. Although few would argue the health risks of smoking it is interesting that our government actively supports both sides of this social problem. Several times in the past ten or so years I have rented a car and driven back to the tobacco farming area of Southern Ontario, where over forty years ago I was part of that unique group of pilots who earned their living flying the crop dusting planes.

The narrow old highways are still there, but like the tobacco farms they are slowly fading into history as newer and more modern freeways are built. The easiest way of finding tobacco country is to drive highway 3, during the nineteen forties and early fifties this winding narrow road was the main route from Windsor through the heart of tobacco country and on to the Niagara district. Soon after leaving the modern multi lane 401 to highway 3 you will begin to realize that although it was only a short drive you have drifted back a long way in time. Driving through the small villages and towns very little has changed and life seems to be as it was in the boom days of tobacco farming, when transients came from all over the continent for the harvest. They came by the hundreds to towns like Aylmer, Tillsonberg, Deli and Simcoe, these towns that were synonymous with tobacco have changed so little it is like going back in time.

Several of the airfields we flew our Cubs, Super Cubs and Stearmans out of in the fifties and early sixties are still there. Just outside of Simcoe highway 3 runs right past the airport and even before turning into the driveway to the field I can see that after all these years nothing seems to have changed. I could be in a time warp and can imagine a Stearman or Cub landing and one of my old flying friends getting out of his airplane after another morning killing tobacco horn worms, and saying come on . lets walk down to the restaurant and have breakfast. The tobacco hornworm was a perennial pest and our most important and profitable source of income. Most of my old companion's names have faded from memory as the years have passed and we went our different ways but some of them are easy to recall.

Like Lorne Beacroft a really great cropduster and Stearman pilot. Lorne and I shared many exciting adventures in our airplanes working together from the row crop farms in Southern Ontario to conifer release spraying all over Northern Ontario for the big pulp and paper companies. Little did we know then that many years later I would pick up a newspaper thousands of miles away and read about Lorne being Canadas first successful heart transplant. I wonder where he is today and what he is doing?

There are others, Tom Martindale whom I talked to just last year after over forty years, now retired having flown a long career with Trans Canada Airlines, now named Air Canada. Then there was Howard Zimmerman who went on to run his own helicopter company and still in the aerial applicating business last I heard of him. And who could forget Bud Boughner another character that just disappeared probably still out there somewhere flying for someone.

I have been back to St. Thomas, another tobacco farming town on highway 3 twice in the last several years to pick up airplanes to move for people in my ferry business. The airport has changed very little over the years. The hanger where I first learned to fly cropdusters is still there with the same smell of chemicals that no Ag. Pilot can ever forget. It is now the home of Hicks and Lawrence who were in the business in the fifties and still at it, only the airplanes have changed.

My first flying job started in that hangar, right from a brand new commercial license to the greatest flying job that any pilot could ever want. There were twenty-three of us who started the crop dusting course early that spring, in the end only three were hired and I was fortunate to have been one of them.

With the grand total of 252 hours in my log book I started my training with an old duster pilot named George Walker. Right from the start he let me know that I was either going to fly this damned thing right on its limits and be absolutely perfect in flying crop spraying patterns or the training wouldn't last long. It was fantastic not only to learn how to really fly unusual attitudes but do it right at ground level.

To become a good crop duster pilot required that you accurately fly the airplane to evenly apply the chemicals over the field being treated. We really had to be careful with our flying when applying fertilizers in early spring as any error was there for all to see as the crop started growing. This was achieved by starting on one side of the field maintaining a constant height, airspeed and track over the crop. Just prior to reaching the end of your run full power was applied, and at the last moment the spray booms were shut off and at the same time a forty-five degree climb was initiated. As soon as you were clear of obstructions a turn right or left was made using forty five to sixty degrees of bank. After approximately three seconds a very quick turn in the opposite direction was entered until a complete one hundred and eighty degree change of direction had been completed. If done properly you were now lined up exactly forty-five feet right or left of the track you had just flown down the field.

From that point a forty-five degree dive was entered and with the use of power recovery to level flight was made at the exact height above the crop and the exact airspeed required for the next run down the field in the opposite direction to your last pass. Speed was maintained from that point by reducing power.

To finish the course and be one of the three finally hired was really hard to believe. To be paid to do this was beyond belief. When the season began we were each assigned an airplane, a crash helmet, a tent and sleeping bag and sent off to set up what was to be our summer home on some farmers field. Mine was near Langdon just a few miles from lake Erie.

Last year I tried without success to find the field where my Cub and I spent a lot of that first summer. Time and change linked with my memory of its location being from flying into it rather than driving to it worked against me and I was unable to find it. Remembering it however is easy, how could one forget crawling out of my tent just before sunrise to mix the chemicals? Then pump it into the spray tank and hand start the cub. Then to be in the air just as it was getting light enough to see safely and get in as many acres as possible before the wind came up and shut down our flying until evening. Then with luck the wind would go down enough to allow us to resume work before darkness would shut us down for the day. The company had a very good method for assuring we would spray the correct field.

Each new job was given to us by the salesman who after selling the farmer drew a map for the pilots with the location of the farm and each building and its color plus all the different crops were written on the map drawn to scale. As well as the buildings all trees, fences and power lines were drawn to scale. It was very easy for us to find and positively identify our field to be sprayed and I can not remember us making any errors in that regard.

Sadly there were to many flying errors made and during the first three years that I crop-dusted eight pilots died in this very demanding type of flying in our area. Most of the accidents were due to stalling in turns or hitting power lines, fences or trees.

One new pilot who had only been with us for two weeks died while doing a low level stall turn and spinning in, he was just to low to recover from the loss of control. He had been on his way back from a spraying mission when he decided to put on an airshow at the farm of his girlfriend of the moment. This particular accident was to be the last for a long time as those of us who were flying for the different companies in that area had by that time figured out what the limits were that we could not go beyond.

Even though there were a lot of accidents in the early years they at least gave the industry the motivation to keep improving on flying safety, which made a great difference in the frequency of pilot error accidents. Agricultural flying has improved in other areas as well especially in the use of toxic chemicals.

In 1961 Rachel Carson wrote a book called "The silent spring. " This book was the beginning of public awareness to the danger of the wide area spraying of chemicals especially the use of D.D.T. to control Mosquitoes and black flies.

For years all over the world we had been using this chemical not really aware that it had a very long-term residual life. When Rachels book pointed out that D.D.T. had began to build up in the food chain in nature, she also showed that as a result many of the birds and other species were in danger of being wiped out due to D.D.T. Her book became a best seller and we in the aerial application business were worried that it would drastically affect our business, and it did.

The government agency in Ontario that regulated pesticides and their use called a series of meetings with the industry. From these meetings new laws were passed requiring us to attend Guelph agricultural college and receive a diploma in toxicology and entomology. I attended these classes and in the spring of 1962 passed the exams and received Pest Control License Class 3 - Aerial Applicator.

My license number was 001. Now if nothing else I can say that I may not have been the best but I was the first. Without doubt the knowledge and understanding of the relationship of these chemicals to the environment more than made up for all the work that went into getting the license. From that point on the industry went to great length to find and use chemicals less toxic to our animal life and also to humans.

It would be easy to just keep right on writing about aerial application and all the exciting and sometimes boring experiences we had, however I will sum it all up with the observation that crop dusting was not only my first flying job it was without doubt the best. I flew seven seasons' crop dusting and I often think of someday giving it another go, at least for a short time.

[Lost Lake]

Hey Cat interesting story. I too have only ever loaded my own aircraft. I got a lucky break on a 185 job many years back.

I wonder though about the one comment you made:

My first flying job started in that hangar, right from a brand new commercial license to the greatest flying job that any pilot could ever want. There were twenty-three of us who started the crop dusting course early that spring, in the end only three were hired and I was fortunate to have been one of them.

I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate here, and I don't really condon a company hiring rampies to be overworked in most cases, but you had to go through a "pre-screening process".

I don't think today's labour laws will let someone attend a screening process without being paid a minimum wage. Also, I don't think they would let you stay in a tent. So a question is, did you get paid during the process.

I guess my point is that your employer used some sort of a get to know you process. Is it THAT much different than hiring a rampy.

I think most of us older guys would say that a lot (NOT ALL) new pilots today have a different work ethic. Maybe, especially with the availability of the HUGE hiring pool out there, hiring rampies/dock hands is a chance for some operators to see who has the true grit. Unless of course he has a degree in Aviation, then he should just automatically be chief pilot.

Just a thought