J/S Fee

[swervin]

I heard a rumour the other day that AC is going to start charging $30 for the J/S for OAL carriers. Anyone else hear anything about this?

[BLZD1]

Thats what we hear at AC as well-!! Management thinks we need to competed with WestJet's fee. Wait to see when we all change to Porter's Jump-seat policy. At Air Canada we have around 3100 pilots and 7000 - 8000 flight attendants. We are losing more perks by the day.

[KAG]

What is Porters policy?

[Metro-Sexual]

KAG,

I believe he is referring to the fact the Porter's JS is open to FA's as well. If AC is going to start charging hopefully it'll be like WJ where if there is an open seat in back you pay your fee and get on the airplane. Guess we'll see.

[Brick Head]

KAG,

If AC is going to start charging hopefully it'll be like WJ where if there is an open seat in back you pay your fee and get on the airplane. Guess we'll see.

That's not a reciprocal j/s agreement.

Perhaps we need to decide what we want? Some sort of shared pass system or a reciprocal j/s seat policy? Perhaps we can have both. Have a separate policy targeted at domestic carriers only, and a reciprocal agreement with other carriers outside our boarders. I fear however that the costs AC was absorbing, due to the frequency of domestic j/s (not just WJ), will result in an across the board fee. That will likely be the end of the reciprocal j/s program for AC/Jazz south of the boarder.

I think we pooched it allowing agreements with other domestic carriers that were not truly reciprocal. Again WJ is not the only one. The advantage of free travel on AC, versus the other way around has made the program lopsided. AC would eventually want to address those kinds of costs.

On the flip side If I have to pick one over the other? (mute point because it is probably already too late) I guess more people use WJ than the actual reciprocal program. If one has to go........

Keep in mind though. AC service charge fees are on average 8 to 10 times higher than WJ. Once AC starts charging, I can't see it being less than what employees pay. It would cause a problem.

You may very well find the end result cost prohibitive.

With AC's fees going up, not just for reciprocal but also the employees themselves. Jazz already. AC 12 months. How long before the traffic all swings your way? How long before WJ management, and their employees owners say, enough?

Then what? You dump us?

I think we pooched this. If we are not very careful? We may be staring at the end of reciprocal j/s altogether. Again it may already be too late.

[TyrellCorp]

And thus the downward slide continues.

[KAG]

Brickhead
The only caveat about your scenario is if we have a “jumpseat” request, they are at the bottom of the seniority list trying to get on. If there are open seat after all WJ employee, parents/dependants and buddy pass holders have gotten on, then it’s no skin off any Westjetter back who gets a ride. I can’t see this being a problem, nor can I see it getting canceled if you start charging and a much great percentage of AC personal use our seats.
We have enjoyed free rides for the duration of this agreement to our benefit; it would be only fair if we can reciprocate down the road if/when your travel fees go up.

[Brick Head]

How much gas does a 737 burn YYC-YYZ for every extra 100kg of extra weight.

There is a cost. It won't be ignored, just as it isn't at AC right now, if the situation goes lop sided.

[Al707]

Rough guess but most Aircraft burn approx. 3% per hour to carry the weight.

ie. ~3kg per hour.

[mattedfred]

any commercially licensed pilot currently working as a pilot for a commercially licensed operator should be allowed to occupy the jumpseat of any commercially registered aircraft to any destination, free of charge, if the PIC allows them to

period

this benefit was created by pilots for pilots

the ability to occupy a seat in the cabin is another story

an employee should be able to occupy any unsold seat in the cabin of their employer's aircraft for free

operators should be encouraged to allow employees of other operators to occupy unsold seats in their cabins

[KAG]

Brickhead
If the company was that worried about fuel costs (they really are, but in this case it's kind of overlooked) IMO we would/should have other bases as the small number of AC pilots flying on what few seats we have open will be minimal compared to the fuel spent on the shear number of commuters we have system wide. If the profit margins became that tight and we went to cost cutting mode, then yes this agreement would come to an end. I hope it doesn’t get that bad again, We both would have bigger problems then a JS agreement.

Mattedfred
I completely agree.

[Brick Head]

Kag,

Crisis or not, corporations run fine tooth combs looking for fat on a regular basis.

AC is presently running a fine tooth comb through flight ops. That is why we are discussing this here and now.

Are you telling me the cost conscience WJ auditor won't find the same if reciprocal traffic surges?

I think that if reciprocal traffic surges, which it probable already has with Jazz, it is only time before we see this end.

I don't want that.

[stickontheice]

Just scrap the entire program all together.

[flyincanuck]

Bravo! Best idea ever

[RFN]

That is proof that pilots are our own worst enemies.

The recips seem to be most useful to commuters.
Having the jumpseat set up with WestJet has helped me many times on the YWG-YYZ commute, and I know that its helping the YHZ-YYZ guys too.

For my own purposes, it helps me feel like less of a second class citizen by dodging the "service" charges on AC and our (Jazz) planes.

The only reason the Jumpseat Recip agreements should be scrapped is if we can get something better.

[Unable]

KAG, are you saying more AC pilots use WJ than so called westjetters (dumb term sorry) use AC? I'd be surprised if thats what you implied or where you saying that if AC increased the employee travel fees we would use you more.

As an AC pilot, the only time I ever use WJ is when we are full and more often than not (read not always but mostly) you guys have seats available (after all the other so called westjetters get on). The extra available seats is great in a pinch and the fee is negligible. I'd rather see you guys drop the fee but Durf isn't gonna do it (don't get me started), so I'm happy and pissed that we are charging you guys. It is not truly a reciprocal agreement so shelving it would be the best course of action. I'm afraid we might lose some recip agreements on other airlines when we start charging them.

Oh well, unable.

[Jaques Strappe]

Ahhhh....correct me if I am wrong but I read that the fees being collected by Air Canada are going to the airports, not the airline. AAIF and Security fees. The only way around that is to be listed as operating or deadheading crew. Maybe you should be directing your frustrations towards the growing empire of private airport operators, rather than each other.

This forum has become so f*&$#ng septic.

[KAG]

Unable, I think myself and Brickhead were referring to IF/when AC reintroduces the travel fee's to the AC employees that we could see an increase of the JS usage. As it stands right now there are probably equal numbers if not more WJ employees using your seats then vise versa.

[mattedfred]

Ahhhh....correct me if I am wrong but I read that the fees being collected by Air Canada are going to the airports, not the airline. AAIF and Security fees. The only way around that is to be listed as operating or deadheading crew. Maybe you should be directing your frustrations towards the growing empire of private airport operators, rather than each other.

This forum has become so f*&$#ng septic.

does this mean that PD is covering the cost of such fees for non-PD employees that travel using their Recip JS Agreement since PD does not charge any fees?

[Jaques Strappe]

Mattedfred

To be totally honest, I don't know what PD is or is not covering. I do understand however that Air Canada is getting pretty frustrated with all the ancillary charges that the airport authorities are introducing at every opportunity. Who can blame them? Ultimately, these charges get applied to the end user and if you are not listed as an operating or deadheading crew member, then in the eyes of the airport authority, you are simply a passenger utilizing it's facility, no matter what seat you may happen to be sitting in.

[mattedfred]

Mattedfred

To be totally honest, I don't know what PD is or is not covering.

the answer you are looking for is nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero, free. this is also the same price that pilots from OAL pay to use the Recip JS Agreement on AC while AC charges all Jazz employees.

[Jaques Strappe]

the answer you are looking for is nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero, free. this is also the same price that pilots from OAL pay to use the Recip JS Agreement on AC while AC charges all Jazz employees.

Matted

I am not the one looking for any answers. PD may start charging, who knows? Frankly, I don't care. I guess you think the airlines should also cover the cost of your airport fees when they provide you with a JS. That is your opinion. I am just pointing out that perhaps the issue is with the ever greedy airport authorities and the growing security empires, so maybe you should constructively direct your frustration in that direction rather than towards the airline providing you with a seat.

Have a nice day.

JS

[mattedfred]

i think we both agree that the fees, taxes etc levied on top of air travel in this country are extreme

the trail likely leads to the federal government

the consumer should lobby the company they are choosing to purchase their ticket from or they should vote with their feet by either choosing not to fly or choosing to fly into or out of an airport with lower fees

then the company should lobby the airport authority that is levying these fees

then the airport authority should lobby the federal government that has downloaded the cost to the authority

i feel that every PIC should be allowed to let whomever they want into their JS for free

i also feel that every airline employee should be able to fly on other airlines without being charged a service charge by that airline

AC is currently charging Jazz employees a service charge in addition to the AIF etc

WJ is currently charging Jazz employees less than AC is charging them

PD does not charge Jazz pilots for anything

you should see the looks i get when i fly on PD in the uniform that the CPA with AC requires me to wear as a Jazz employee

[Jaques Strappe]

Matted

I would love nothing more than for Air Canada to tell the GTAA that they have had enough of the ridiculous fees at CYYZ and are moving to Hamilton. The added fees associated with air travel are strangling the industry.

With the business models of today relying on razor thin margins, I don't expect my employer to pick up the ancillary fees associated with me traveling on a pass or JS. As far as being charged a company fee for the JS, I do agree with you however and think it should be waived. ( Not the associated taxes ) This practice however has been in place for as long as I can remember.

As far as CPA dress code is concerned, all I can say is that if an airline Air Canada has an agreement with requires me to conform to a dress code, I either respect it or make other arrangements. Continental Airlines for example is one of many airlines which requires us to be in uniform for JS travel. It is not exclusive to Air Canada. Perhaps when PD starts flying overseas and is required to comply with the laws of multiple countries, it too will come out with a blanket uniform dress code for the JS which makes crossing borders, a lot easier.

[mattedfred]

just to clarify....PD does not require a Recip JS to wear their uniform. i am commuting to work so i am wearing mine. my point is that i am traveling for free on one of AC's competitors in AC's uniform.

i don't know if PD gets charged the the AIF for Recip JS. both AC and PD do not charge Recip JS AIF fees. WJ does.

AC does charge Jazz employees service charges and AIF fees etc.