Write Your MP's (Canada vs Emirates)

[double-j]

As a WJ pilot I can see this as a definite issue for canadian pilots. You need no further then the general airline section of this website to see the difference and inequalities between these two countries.

jj

[godsrcrazy]

Emirates is a nationally owned subsidized airline, not exactly fair competition, to AC

If you did your home work you would know that Air Canada us to be Nationally owned and subsidized. This is the only reason they are here today and not airlines like Pacific Western/Canadian airlines and Ward air.

The bold part above is the difference between the two. That was awhile ago I believe.

Yes it was a long time ago. Does not take away the fact that Air Canada was Government owned and subsidized. This being a major reason all the above airlines are no longer around. Between the Government controlling the purse and the sky's prior to open sky's these airlines folded.

[Guido]

If you did your home work you would know that Air Canada us to be Nationally owned and subsidized. This is the only reason they are here today and not airlines like Pacific Western/Canadian airlines and Ward air.

The bold part above is the difference between the two. That was awhile ago I believe.

Yes it was a long time ago. Does not take away the fact that Air Canada was Government owned and subsidized. This being a major reason all the above airlines are no longer around. Between the Government controlling the purse and the sky's prior to open sky's these airlines folded.

So... because they were coddled for a long time (but are now more or less on their own - particularly internationally) they don't deserve any preferential treatment from their own government? Remember we're not talking about a faceless entity here, we're talking about thousands of people who are trying to earn a living... I think within Canadian borders all Canadian airlines ought to get a bit of a leg up versus international competitors, don't you? Just because Westjet doesn't fly to Dubai (yet?) doesn't mean it's unfair for AC (and Canadian jobs) to get a bit of shielding by the government... so long as they're not unfairly pricing for the consumer, what's the problem?

Consumer convenience versus human livelihoods, I think I know which side I'm on. But then I get called a socialist sometimes.

[whiteguy]

Yes it was a long time ago. Does not take away the fact that Air Canada was Government owned and subsidized. This being a major reason all the above airlines are no longer around. Between the Government controlling the purse and the sky's prior to open sky's these airlines folded.

What a great argument! Because AC was Government controlled 20+ years ago they should let every airline into Canada? You hate AC because they use to be Government controlled but you want to let in Emirates who is Government controlled? Give your head a shake. This would also hurt WS just as much as AC in the long run.

[bcflyer]

Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has absolutely no clue how Emirates works.. Go have a look on PPrune and see what kind of airline they are running and what kind of business practices they use...

If they are allowed the access they want to Canada, all canadian pilots will suffer.. Just because you are flying a King Air doesn't make you immune from the potential downside of this. AC lays off, Westjet slows its hiring, all boils down to reduced/no movement in the industry... Hope you're happy where you are because you could be there for a while......

[complexintentions]

Wow how much do you have to hate Air Canada to think it's a good idea to let a company based in a country with no labour protections, toothless regulatory oversight, led by a dictatorship, attempting to strongarm our own government...to have free access to Canada to "compete"? The comparison of Emirates and its relationship with the UAE government, with Air Canada and its long ago status as a Crown Corporation is beyond ridiculous, it's stupid. Quit living in the 80's, it's 2010!

A competition generally implies something is conducted in a venue where the rules are applied consistently to each participant.

I can assure you that this is not the case with UAE vs Canada. I'm quite sure Air Canada could compete against Emirates, all AC needs to do is abolish unions and find a large mass of desperate workers to exploit, so that they can pay them next to nothing, work them to whatever terms they feel, and toss them aside with no recourse. Guarantee AC a monopoly in their home country. (Bye bye WestJet! There is no equivalent in the UAE. Fly Dubai is an EK subsidiary.) Maybe we could hope for the abolition of income tax, so that real pilot wages would increase but Air Canada wouldn't have to pay more.

Yeah it damn well IS protectionism because there actually IS something worth protecting - regardless of your views on Air Canada! It's so much bigger than that, that it makes me want to pound the keyboard with frustration when people who've never lived outside of Canadian borders spout uninformed nonsense simply because they have a hate on for Air Canada. Believe me I'm no particular fan of our "national" airline! But this will affect the whole industry, not just Air Canada!

Emirates is desperate to expand because their business model, as well as continued profitability, depends on it with more widebodies constantly arriving. Especially now as they are picking up other more vulnerable airlines deferred aircraft orders! They are NOT interested in increasing options for Canadian travellers per se, they could CARE LESS about boosting the Canadian economy, they simply want to keep increasing their influence and leveraging their advantages, mainly the dubious distinctions mentioned above.

If that is the direction one wants Canadian aviation and society to take, then fine. But know what you are advocating first. Believe me, the "Dubai Dream" is a complete, cynical lie.

[Expat]

Actually, the government should call the bluff, close Camp Mirage, which is becoming irrelevant anyway, because our boys will head home soon. In addition, Dubai is not the place it used to be for R&R.
Dubai has been playing too aggressively lately. Last month, they banned all cargo flights with non ICAO approved planes. Our supplies here all come on Antonovs and Illyushins, from Dubai.
They did this in order to feed their Emirates Cargo business. The cost to bring one armored LandCruiser from Dubai to Kabul went from 10K to almost 20k.
They are making way too much money from the wars here. They are using this money to position themselves to dominate the skys.

[busboy]

The CEO of Emirates states on every occasion he can that they are not "owned" by the government.
They have backing no doubt!

[bmc]

What can you tell us about the market practices of Emirates, cpl_atc?

Nice to see intelligent posts on this thread. Encouraging change from the OP.

[mbav8r]

I wonder what the savings in fuel alone would be as they tankerup in Dubai for pennies(exageration)
What kind of cost advantage would that be, as far as fair competition would go. Also what would be the response if AC wanted more slots in Dubai, not that they could compete there for the above mentioned reason.

[whiteguy]

You guys sound just like the protectionist Americans who demonize Canadian softwood lumber and/or Canadian cattle and/or prescription drugs and/or <insert industry here>, who will attempt to find any reason under the sun to shield their underperforming industries from foreign competition.

If Air Canada and their staff didn't go out of their way to piss off their customers, then they wouldn't need to worry about foreign competitors.

AC has earned its reputation and didn't become one of Canada's most-hated companies overnight. Now it's coming home to roost. I guess the pig-headed management and bitchy unions should have realized that they can't deliver an inferior product while hiding behind our own protectionist airline policies forever. If it's too late, it's their own fault.

You obviously have a hate on for AC which prevents you from looking at the big picture in Canadian aviation. If this is allowed say goodbye to passengers connecting through AMS, LHR, CDG, FRA to Canada and on to Air Canada and Westjet. How about passengers connect to WJ through KLM or AF? Maybe other airlines in this country should be standing up and saying no as well!!!

[bmc]

You guys sound just like the protectionist Americans who demonize Canadian softwood lumber and/or Canadian cattle and/or prescription drugs and/or <insert industry here>, who will attempt to find any reason under the sun to shield their underperforming industries from foreign competition.

If Air Canada and their staff didn't go out of their way to piss off their customers, then they wouldn't need to worry about foreign competitors.

AC has earned its reputation and didn't become one of Canada's most-hated companies overnight. Now it's coming home to roost. I guess the pig-headed management and bitchy unions should have realized that they can't deliver an inferior product while hiding behind our own protectionist airline policies forever. If it's too late, it's their own fault.

cpl_atc....I don't want to come down on you, but you really don't know what you're talking about here. The concerns raised here about Emirates, by AC, have been repeated time and again by the CEO's of many world airlines. In fact a number of CEO's took on EK at a panel discussion at an IATA annual general meeting.

I'm a huge fan of the low cost model for a number of reasons. I fully support competition. I believe open skies could be good for Canada. But it would be bad for the Canadian airline industry and it would lead to our jet pilots earning $20,000 a year.

A good analogy might be to look at immigration. Controlling entry into Canada could be done by restricting access to people from certain nations. Using this as a comparison to the UAE bilateral talks sees you as defending the position to allow wide open immigration to anyone from anywhere. Just open the borders. What is there to fear.

It's an exaggerated comparison, but the impact of allowing such access will be damaging. The president of AC isn't saying this without some intelligent behind it. Can you see my point?

[CD]

How did this thread get screwed up so badly? It looks like there might have been a merge of two distinctly different threads on the same topic but now it looks like complexintentions is bashing Air Canada because his thread title was replaced with the the title of the thread critical of Air Canada started by cpl_atc...

Perhaps complexintentions original title could be restored to this discussion...

[Widow]

Thread title changed.

[whiteguy]

Thread title changed.

Its not the title that needed to be changed. These are 2 different threads merged into one. The original posters have 2 completely different view points. One (complexintentions) wanting to stop EK from coming into Canada and the other (cpl_atc) bashing AC under the "Afraid to compete" title.

[complexintentions]

Actually, I don't think Emirates having increased frequency to Canada will result in $20k pilot jobs in Canada. Those jobs will be gone, period. You'll be able to make more than $20k (as a pilot - other jobs, keep reading). You'll just have to live in Dubai to earn it.

You state yourself that we screen immigrants, which would seem to suggest that it is acceptable to apply some sort of criteria to those who would advantage themselves with access to Canada. So we agree on that I think. Can you explain then why we should not do the same to companies trying to tap our markets? Emirates may throw around figures about how much money they would generate in Canada, (and those figures are somewhat dubious given they are self-generated), but I can assure you that is nothing compared to what they will put in their own pockets, that will NOT remain in Canada.

There are many reasons why Emirates is the WORST sort of corporate citizen. And that is why the immigration analogy though imperfect is very much valid. Come live in Dubai for awhile, and work for Emirates for awhile. There are reasons why they are able to "compete" so effectively, and none of them are positive to anyone. I find this quote hugely ironic:

We screen immigrants and score them based on a variety of factors (education, health, wealth, are they terrorists, etc.) so that Canada is not inundated with millions of hangers-on who would drain our resources and degrade our standard of living.

Ask the vast majority of the employees of Emirates what their standards of living in Dubai are compared to their industry counterparts in Canada. Because other than a few minimum wage gate agents and contracted baggage handlers in Canada, Dubai is where the jobs are going once you upon things up to them. Not to the same Canadian individuals of course, to desperate workers from the Indian subcontinent.

You are entitled to your opinions of Air Canada as a company. They seem to be based on dated, incorrect assumptions, but I would not tell you how to think (that's more of a Middle East thing). What I will tell you though is, you have no idea of what you are advocating with allowing companies like Emirates to come in and begin to expand their international presence.

[palebird]

Wow Air Canada won awards for service and FA's..what a joke..do you believe everything you read?? Get out much?? Fly around Canada, the USA and Europe, Asia, the UAE, etc?? If you did you would know for a fact that service in all facets for the airlines in the USA and Canada sucks, comparing AC to all the other crap in North America won AC an award that is meaningless. The Emirates, the Asians and a lot of the Europeans beat AC hands down..open up the skies and may the best man win, if AC goes down don't worry someone will pick up the pieces and start over with a better overall product..and pleasant looking and acting service personnel, something they now sorely lack.. and service is the name of the game

[bmc]

Wow Air Canada won awards for service and FA's..what a joke..do you believe everything you read?? Get out much?? Fly around Canada, the USA and Europe, Asia, the UAE, etc?? If you did you would know for a fact that service in all facets for the airlines in the USA and Canada sucks, comparing AC to all the other crap in North America won AC an award that is meaningless. The Emirates, the Asians and a lot of the Europeans beat AC hands down..open up the skies and may the best man win, if AC goes down don't worry someone will pick up the pieces and start over with a better overall product..and pleasant looking and acting service personnel, something they now sorely lack.. and service is the name of the game

It's less a question of believing everything you read and more a question of understanding what you read.

The awards are for North American carriers, not intl carriers.

[bmc]

We screen immigrants and score them based on a variety of factors (education, health, wealth, are they terrorists, etc.) so that Canada is not inundated with millions of hangers-on who would drain our resources and degrade our standard of living.
.

Why should we bother? We have thousands of square miles of empty space. Think of the housing boom, the demand for social services. Why are we being restrictive. Are you scared? Are you a racist. These are people that want to come and contribute. It can only good.


(that's tongue in cheek analogy)

[bwilly]

I'm certainly no expert, but isnt there some truth to what emirates is saying about jobs?

They claim that by adding more flights to Canada, it will in turn create an increase in passenger traffic to the smaller feeder airlines. Wouldn't that mean there would be more regional flights, and thus more pilot jobs added?

That seems reasonable to me. How is this going to hurt Air Canada. Inst it the code share partners that fly to Dubai (Lufthansa, BA) that really get hurt?

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I must be missing something..

[CD]

Hat Trick Plus One For Air Canada

Finally, Air Canada—which won three Best in Business Travel awards last year—had the distinction of being the lone travel industry player to snare four awards in 2009. The airline was a repeat winner for “Best North American Airline for International Travel,” “Best North American Airline for Business-Class Service,” and “Best In-flight Services in North America,” and added “Best Flight Attendants in North America” to its haul.

Business Traveler Presents Winners of 2009 Best in Business Travel Awards - December 17, 2009

[Vickers vanguard]

did anybody write to any MP yet ? tell us who can have an impact on this issue ? mine is a liberal who's been there for 12 years now (.i.e useless)....I hope the conservatives are not gonna let this happen. Camp Mirage ? who give a **** ? If they still need it, they should set-up a base somewhere else.
Anybody who supports the move by the Emirates dump ****, should go and work for a couple of months in UAE, come back and tell us how good it was.