Nose gear turning arc

[northwings]

Just a quick question to all may be able to help me. What i need to know is the angular nose wheel deflection on a couple of aircraft, like a King Air 100 and a PC-12. What i'm attempting to do is to prove to T.C. that it is safer on our company aircraft to disconnect the nose gear scissor links when towing the aircraft, instead of leaving it connected and risking cracking the whole nose gear housing. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[PanEuropean]

I cannot find a reference in the PC-12 AFM specifying the degree of deflection of the nosewheel.

FYI, you can steer a Twin Otter 60° either side of centerline using the aircraft steering.

[northwings]

Thats great, thanks for the info PanEuropean. The Pilatus and King Air are just examples, any aircraft will do. The more examples i got the better.

[fel]

Just a quick question to all may be able to help me. What i need to know is the angular nose wheel deflection on a couple of aircraft, like a King Air 100 and a PC-12. What i'm attempting to do is to prove to T.C. that it is safer on our company aircraft to disconnect the nose gear scissor links when towing the aircraft, instead of leaving it connected and risking cracking the whole nose gear housing. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Hi NorthWing!
Sorry to put a question to a question but I'm just trying to understand your situation a bit.......Does your aircraft type have the tow bar max angle indicator (stencil/paint) on the nose gear or fuselage that allow the tug operator to see when max turn angle is reached? Wrt TC, who cares what they think about your tow jobs, as long as you make an entry for the scissor disconnect/connect, they are secured to keep them separated and you are not exceeding some manufacturers limit?

[northwings]

No problem about the question fel. The problem we encounter here is that we are a relatively small operation with only 2 small turboprop aircraft, and only 2 mechanics (myself being one of 'em), and 2 bases. We have no designated tug operator, so the responsibility of towing the aircraft in and out of the hangar usually falls on the pilots seeing as we can't be there all the time to tow it in and out for them. The aircraft itself is marked with max wheel deflection marks, but it still happens that the turn tow limits do get exceeded, and this usually ends with a cracked housing. I do see TC's point on the matter, the nose gear scissor links are not meant to be quickly connected and disconnected by a pilot as this can be a safety issue. On the flip side of the argument though (mine) is that it's a lot easier to train the pilots to re-connect the scissor links after positioning the aircraft, than it is to get them to drop down on the dirty ground in their pristine white uniforms to view the housing to make sure they didn't exceed the limits. All that being said, I may have found a solution that will make everyone happy. Anyone have any experience with Lindbergh electric tugs? I'm looking at the 15k model and was wondering how battery life is on it, and overall user feedback.

[PanEuropean]

The type of tug you are proposing (Lindbergh) looks like it would solve your scissor-link problem. But, I don't know how well that type of tug would perform on a contaminated surface, for example a snow or ice covered surface. You might want to ask the manufacturer about that. The wheels look quite small, I suspect they would work very well on a smooth dry surface that does not have any irregularities.

[Lurch]

The type of tug you are proposing (Lindbergh) looks like it would solve your scissor-link problem. But, I don't know how well that type of tug would perform on a contaminated surface, for example a snow or ice covered surface. You might want to ask the manufacturer about that. The wheels look quite small, I suspect they would work very well on a smooth dry surface that does not have any irregularities.

I haven't used a Lindbergh tug but others with the same type of design, and they all were useless when it came to snow or ice, chains would have helped but that creates a whole new set of problems.

My question is, why can't the pilots properly move an airplane? If they can be taught to fly surely they can be taught to pull an airplane. Has anybody spent the time to train them properly?

Lurch

[fel]

No problem about the question fel. The problem we encounter here is that we are a relatively small operation with only 2 small turboprop aircraft, and only 2 mechanics (myself being one of 'em), and 2 bases. We have no designated tug operator, so the responsibility of towing the aircraft in and out of the hangar usually falls on the pilots seeing as we can't be there all the time to tow it in and out for them. The aircraft itself is marked with max wheel deflection marks, but it still happens that the turn tow limits do get exceeded, and this usually ends with a cracked housing. I do see TC's point on the matter, the nose gear scissor links are not meant to be quickly connected and disconnected by a pilot as this can be a safety issue. On the flip side of the argument though (mine) is that it's a lot easier to train the pilots to re-connect the scissor links after positioning the aircraft, than it is to get them to drop down on the dirty ground in their pristine white uniforms to view the housing to make sure they didn't exceed the limits. All that being said, I may have found a solution that will make everyone happy. Anyone have any experience with Lindbergh electric tugs? I'm looking at the 15k model and was wondering how battery life is on it, and overall user feedback.

Now it all makes sense!!.....Thx for the info! I've seen the same thing several times wrt the damage and tight towing areas. The only suggestion I can offer is what we did as an aide rather than a total solution was to add some yellow painted wheel lines(footprints) so the tug operator could judge where the aircraft had to go without getting anywhere near the turn limit AND rather than getting close to the deflection angle while manoeuvring...stop tug...chock aircraft....disconnect tug....manually turn towbar and nose gear to desired angle....realign tug and reconnect tug...carry on. Sounds like a pain but only someone that has tow/parked aircraft by themselves without wing walker etc would appreciate.
I had a look at the Lindy and she looks like the cats rearend!! As Pan points out though, it will have limitations with icing fluid, snow etc on the floor or ice outside, but if you have a tug for the course work the Lindy may work great on the fine strokes.
Cannot see you winning argument with TC!

[Blaine Beaven]

I know that on BN2s with non-castering nose wheels the max deflection when towing is 16 degrees

[The Old Fogducker]

I think I would have this training put into the Company Operations Manual and the CBA POI sign off on it under the Aircraft Servicing and Ground Handling syllabus.....thus doing an end run around the M&M guy.

Its then a TC approved procedure and the company would be in compliance.

OFD

[PanEuropean]

My question is, why can't the pilots properly move an airplane? If they can be taught to fly surely they can be taught to pull an airplane...

I don't think that the original poster's concern was about the ability of the pilots to safely move the aircraft, his concern appears to be that there could be complications (regulatory, etc.) arising from the pilots disconnecting and reconnecting the scissor link (torque link) on the nosewheel.

I'm wondering if perhaps these regulatory concerns could be solved by just creating and documenting a "training course" for the pilots, nothing elaborate, just a 15 minute briefing on the safety issues associated with connecting and disconnecting the link, and then a 'practical examination' under the supervision of an AME to confirm that the pilots can carry the task out competently.

In other words - if it can be documented that the pilots have been fully trained to carry out this task (not something that is covered in pilot training curriculums), and the pilots have demonstrated competency doing it, that might alleviate any concerns that the regulator has about the pilots doing this.

Just thinking out loud here...

(it sure would save a lot of money buying a new electric tug... but then again, the pilots might need to do an every 6 month 'checkride' to evaluate their skills handling a pip pin )

[Cranium]

King Airs do not have an internal stop inside their nose gear to prevent the oleo from coming apart: if your ramp / towing area is bumpy, I do not recommend disconnecting the torque links - they are what hold the gear together. If you hit a bump and your oleo overextends, it's a very expensive touch to the airplane.

[Ballsssssss]

King Airs do not have an internal stop inside their nose gear to prevent the oleo from coming apart: if your ramp / towing area is bumpy, I do not recommend disconnecting the torque links - they are what hold the gear together. If you hit a bump and your oleo overextends, it's a very expensive touch to the airplane.

And Messy....ugh. Airplane bleeding everywhere... 5606 is worse than Jet fuel.

[Dust Devil]

I think I would have this training put into the Company Operations Manual and the CBA POI sign off on it under the Aircraft Servicing and Ground Handling syllabus.....thus doing an end run around the M&M guy.

Its then a TC approved procedure and the company would be in compliance.

OFD

This is exactly what we did.

[The Old Fogducker]

Funny I've got a handle on some of this stuff eh?

[Lurch]

I don't think that the original poster's concern was about the ability of the pilots to safely move the aircraft, his concern appears to be that there could be complications (regulatory, etc.) arising from the pilots disconnecting and reconnecting the scissor link (torque link) on the nosewheel.

I was refering to this comment

we are a relatively small operation with only 2 small turboprop aircraft, and only 2 mechanics (myself being one of 'em), and 2 bases. We have no designated tug operator, so the responsibility of towing the aircraft in and out of the hangar usually falls on the pilots seeing as we can't be there all the time to tow it in and out for them. The aircraft itself is marked with max wheel deflection marks, but it still happens that the turn tow limits do get exceeded, and this usually ends with a cracked housing.

It sounds as if the AMEs have no problem but the pilots don't seem to be able to move the A/C without breaking it.

Lurch