Jazz Air LP signed an agreement with Thomas Cook Canada Inc.

[Lakelad]

Me Thinking there not going to be Jazz coloured, but rather Thomas Cook paint scheme.
And where are those 757 coming from anyway Skyservice? or Thomas Cook current fleet?

"The leased planes, to come from a Thomas Cook affiliate, will carry the Thomas Cook brand, subject to regulatory approval.""Court documents show that Skyservice has returned three Airbus A320s and three Boeing 757s back to the lessor, Thomas Cook Airlines Ltd."

.

[RB211B757]

Gents!

Just to let you know the 757's are owned or better yet leased by Thomas Cook, and they're plan is to operate them until the leases expire.
When then I've heard the plan is to transter to the more economical 737NG's. They only operate the 57's in country for 6 months in the winter while the UK market is slow,
and the CDN market is high for the sun destinations. In the spring the 57's head back to the UK for their busy summer schedule.
With the 57's come a whack of brit pilots who fly with temporary CDN licences and a big signing bonus if they do the full six months. That being said they never have a large enough subscription to fill all the slots, unless they're based out of a primo skiing base.
For the CDN pilots some are able to bid on a limited number of slots for the summer flying consisting of doing a european deployment for 6 months operating for Thomas Cook with no bonus whatsoever. Don't get me wrong they're fun to do with good experience flying all over europe. But after 2 or more years it gets tiring spending half of your year out of country.
At least that's the way it worked at Sky. I'm just curious to see how the Jazz MEC work around this, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
The 57's a nice bird and fun to fly.

Keep the brown side down!

[imc]

Things will change. This is not going to resemble the past at all - Jazz will protect this work, and that is how it will be. Everything you ever knew about charter/deployments/contract pilots will come to a complete halt with this signing.

My $0.02.

PS - Bad news for the SSV guys looking for work. It would have been easier if SW or CJ got the contract as they would have hired as many as possible, but that is the way it goes. Not taking anything away from Jazz, this is a big step forward for them.

[TQ2]

Thats a bold guess with no idea of what was agreed for the actual terms of the proposed contract.

I guess 2 cents isn't much to lose, guess away.

[SaskStyle]

VULTURES

Jazz mgmt orchestrates the bankruptcy of SS with their new bed buddy TC.

150 pilots lose their jobs, and you vultures say bottom of the list.
Jazz took you over, and tough luck. Newhire cadets are worth
more than your heavy experience.

No one else sees the shame in this???

When you're done masturbating to the airliners.net photos of your
new shiny planes, think about the reality of this industry and the continued
slide it takes. Your excitement to fly a big plane at the xpense of
of your "brethren" speaks volumes of the character, or lack
of that exists in this industry.

I read a post above where a vulture was praising his MEC for working
hard to secure this contract for Jazz. Congrats. Your support of your union
is directly connected to another airline disappearing.

Does it taste bitter at all????

[teacher]

SSV went bankrupt, end of story. To say that Jazz conspired to bankrupt them is crazy. I'm, sure TC saw the ship sinking and decided to go elsewhere to save their reputation. Transat lost money this travel season too, is it Jazz's fault as well? Sky Service was in trouble last year too (when another tour company up and quit I think) but managed another season out of it but the ship sprung leaks a while ago. I feel for the SSV folks, I really do. Having gone through a bankrupty twice before it's sad and frustrating but that's the way aviation goes. That's why you should chase lifestyle and stability over airframes. (not that I'm saying that's what SSV folks did, just a good rule of thumb in my books)

[PC12flyer]

Hey SaskStyle,

Whoa bud, I don't understand how you think Jazz put Skyservice out of business. It was Sunquest that petitioned the court to have them put into receivership. Skyservice people should be pretty upset that their customer didn't have faith in them any longer. This has been brewing for awhile I'm sure and Jazz has been fortunate to benefit from that extremely unfortunate event. To imply that Jazz is to blame for 150 pilots losing their jobs though is a bit unfair and in my opinion a pretty big stretch. Before you fire away and talk about lowest 757 wages yada yada we don't have a contract that covers the B757. In fact we don't really have a contract period, we're still in negotiations. I would like to see our company keep status pay, but it may in the end turn out that our union membership requests this aircraft be paid differently and you'll see similar wages to what our Skyservice brothers were making.

Regarding your comment on our MEC, I don't think the person who congratulated the MEC was doing it maliciously. ie// thanks for getting us new aircraft and setting a new low bar! No, around Jazz it's been a known fact that our MEC has been doing everything in its power to assist the company in securing outside work. They have gone to great lengths to show that the pilot group is both willing and capable to work in any environment. They have also made it known that they will do any work but we won't do for cheap and that our company has to be prepared to pay us well for our work. For that we thank them, they have represented us well.

I am very sorry to hear that many people lost their job last week. It is a very sad day when a company goes out of business. I wish everyone at Skyservice the best of luck in the future. I really hope everyone there will land on their feet quickly with new employment.

[SaskStyle]

OK...

I can accept that Jazz didn't directly conspire to sink the SS ship...the petitions were made by whomever else...

However...

Did Jazz not explore this option with TC close to six months ago when the rumours were circulating about them starting a new vacation airline as part of their expansion??

To use an analogy...

If you know a ship is going to sink, and your response to that upcoming disaster is to encourage it to happen and position yourself to simply replace it with your own ship...without providing life rafts...

I'm sorry..but it's simply a matter of perspective how much responsibility you have to bear.


I challenge the Jazz group and their MEC to do something right for a change and offer those pilots direct entry positions.

Anything less just stinks.

[teacher]

Experience has shown in the aviation industry that often, plugging holes will only slow the sinking.

As for positioning itself to take advantage of the possible downfall of SSV it only makes good business sense.

[mbav8r]

SaskStyle, are you for real??? Thats the most asinine thing I think I've ever read on here. Direct entry hiring because
we're taking over the work that Sky Service used to do. Hell if I'd of known that was a possibility, I should have applied at SS so that when they went under I could skip about 20 years of service that will no doubt be required to hold left seat at Jazz. If only I knew, shit anyone else know of a sinking ship I could go to. I'm tired of waiting for my number to come up, I need a fast track to the left seat here boys and girls....

Sask, If you are one of the affected I feel your pain, been through a couple Bankruptcies myself, However lets say
Jazz creditors call in the loans and we can't pay. We go bankrupt, AC makes a deal with SS(pre folding) to do the same work jazz was. Now you think in this scenario the Sky service pilots are going to let anything but bottom of the list happen. If you do you need to get off the drugs you're taking and snap back to reality

[bawlsdeep]

I have to say I agree with SaskStyle to a point. I am tired of seeing companies operate from the bottom up. This deal will no doubt help get a better contract but it has to be alot better or else Jazz really is just bringing the industry standards down. It brings it down in experience by hiring no time guys and paying bottom feeding wages. The training and experience is great but at the end of the day the pay needs to be there. I'm in my 3rd year with Jazz and still feel grossly underpaid while upper management is seeing bonuses and large wage increases for hitting targets. We have a great negotiating team and I hope they get all the support they need to make large improvements for the employees and ultimately to the industry. The way this company operates currently is in no way any different than Walmart.

[Pratt X 3]

Before you fire away and talk about lowest 757 wages yada yada we don't have a contract that covers the B757. In fact we don't really have a contract period, we're still in negotiations.

Okay, that explains these pictures of the first 757 slated to show up at Jazz.

[ScudRunner]

Do you guys really think the most senior guys will get these jobs? I doubt it. Why on earth would you want to fly the charter side of things when you most likely have the best sched that suites your lifestyle and family right now. I would be very surprised if they would even have a separate pay scale for the 57 drivers. Like said above its good business why pay more if you don't have to? everyone of you that started in the hiring upswing of the last few years (pre recession) would stab each other in the back to have that rating.

Thats just my opinion I could be wrong.

[countryhick]

Pratt, beat me to it

BD, my question to you, does the MEC have YOUR support, have you voiced YOUR concerns?

I have the utmost faith in our MEC, and our negotiating team. This deal will go nowhere unless Jazz steps up and provides us with the WAWCON that reflects our dedication and professionalism. The tools are there, they just need to be utilized.

[SaskStyle]

As for positioning itself to take advantage of the possible downfall of SSV it only makes good business sense.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. At least you admitted it. We as professional pilots in Canada support companies making good "business sense" decisions as long as it protects MY job, MY career, MY plane.

dispicable

SaskStyle, are you for real??? Thats the most asinine thing I think I've ever read on here. Direct entry hiring because
we're taking over the work that Sky Service used to do. Hell if I'd of known that was a possibility, I should have applied at SS so that when they went under I could skip about 20 years of service that will no doubt be required to hold left seat at Jazz. If only I knew, shit anyone else know of a sinking ship I could go to. I'm tired of waiting for my number to come up, I need a fast track to the left seat here boys and girls...

And you call me asinine????

We pilots are our own worse enemies.

Your argument only strengthens my point.

Jazz made a good business decision to position itself to profit from anothers demise.

Wow. What a great industry. I am not naieve to capatilism...but I would expect a little solidarity amongst the grunt workers.

Look beyond your own company/union issued seniority number and realize the only ones winning here are the ones behind mahogany doors.

The fact is for every newhire Jazz takes at their flat salary payscale, it is going to be considerably less than what the SkyService pilot was making who they are now replacing. From where I'm standing...That doesn't look like us pilot's are gaining any ground overall, and given that the laws of physics state that energy is neither created nor destroyed, that money is now going to somone else's pockets. (ie owners etc for those that don't follow)

"But hey let's all celebrate! WE gets new planes! Oh and I do feel bad for the SkyService pilots...But we got new planes!!!"

[SaskStyle]

Sask, If you are one of the affected I feel your pain, been through a couple Bankruptcies myself, However lets say
Jazz creditors call in the loans and we can't pay. We go bankrupt, AC makes a deal with SS(pre folding) to do the same work jazz was. Now you think in this scenario the Sky service pilots are going to let anything but bottom of the list happen. If you do you need to get off the drugs you're taking and snap back to reality

As for this statement...

Thinking you're not affected is naieve. Every pilot in Canada is directly affected by these events. Every time an airline disappears the ramifications change the industry and the current standard. So although I'm not at Sky...just shrugging my shoulders and saying whew glad it wasn't me doesn't sit right.

Now shoving everyone to the bottom of the list because their company went under is one of the major flaws in this industry today.

Another analogy...

Say you're an engineer at a respectable firm that goes bankrupt...
Do you start at a new company sweeping the floors and emptying garbage to gain seniority so that maybe someday you can enjoy a quality of life that you had before?

Of course not. But somehow in aviation that logic is accepted as correct.

You know what...I think I'm going to go find some drugs because reality is too crazy. Thanks for the advice.

[teacher]

When you look at payscales at Jazz you have to stop comparing it between aircraft types. Assuming we get a much improved contract this summer just because SSV paid more to fly the '57 doesn't mean Jazz '57 drivers should be getting the same, that's what status pay is all about, if you don't like it don't work at Jazz. Any increase in profits and revenue and therefore pay for larger aircraft is shared among THE ENTIRE PILOT GROUP. Show me a company that pays more to fly a dash after the new contract is finalised, I'm sure you'll be hard pressed. Why should a '57 pilot make more than a dash driver? You talk about BOTL as unfair, I see your BOTL and raise you pay for aircraft size as equaly unfair. A pilot is a pilot regardless of type. You seem to be missing the point with status pay.

It was no secret that SSV was in trouble. Are you suggesting that Jazz should have bailed out SSV? Incured it's debts and put itself in financial trouble? Come on. It sucks yes and I've been there TWICE but lets be serious here.

Until a new contract is signed it's really unfair to point fingers at Jazz pilots as we are still working under a CCAA contract which expired in 2009. Before you claim that we're bringing the industry down I'd wait and see what the summer brings.

[SaskStyle]

It was no secret that SSV was in trouble. Are you suggesting that Jazz should have bailed out SSV? Incured it's debts and put itself in financial trouble? Come on. It sucks yes and I've been there TWICE but lets be serious here.

Not at all...

I don't think you should save a sinking ship and I've never said that.

I'm saying we should look after our own.

Ignoring the fact that there are unemployed pilot's with mortgages and kids at home and saying "I've been there before therefore we shouldn't do anything about it" is wrong.

I'm saying the only strength specialized employees have is in numbers.

I'm saying that I don't care about the details of how Jazz decides to pay its employees.

I'm saying that the owners won again based on the fact that any expansion Jazz experiences is due to lower cost of new hire wages vs those of lost SkyService wages.

I'm saying that any gain in anticipated personal lifestyle that a Jazz pilot hopes to experience from now on should be tempered with the fact that there are other pilots that are struggling.

I'm saying that as long as we continue to ignore these facts...we're going backwards.

[PC12flyer]

Sask, I agree with you on the fact that we as pilots are our own worst enemies. However don't lose faith in ourselves just yet. There are a group of pilots out there trying to begin a new way of thinking. These are the guys forming the College of Professional Pilots. If you want the change you speak of, then throw your support their way. Get in touch with them, volunteer to help set up this great endevour which may help save us all from eating our own to save ourselves.


there's the link to the College Of Professional Pilots website.... together we can change this ugly industry and begin to recover what we have lost.

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/Home/tabi ... fault.aspx

cheers bud.

[TopperHarley]

Do you guys really think the most senior guys will get these jobs? I doubt it. Why on earth would you want to fly the charter side of things when you most likely have the best sched that suites your lifestyle and family right now.

True, but this flying is probably mostly there-and-back, single day very high credit pairings. Those same senior pilots would probably only have to work 8-10 days/mo doing this flying. Factor in their 7 weeks of vacation a year, and some months they'd probably work 4 days. Im sure it will go quite senior, and wouldn't be surprised to see captains bid FO spots on it.

[mbav8r]

Sask,
Last time I checked I wasn't sweeping floors or emptying garbage, neither would the new hires. Your analogy is flawed. Are thier 1500 engineers at this firm? If there are, you can bet there's a seniority system in place for the group and in all likelyhood you would not be doing the easier jobs the senior guys worked and put in their time to obtain. Takes awhile to get a key to the executive washrooms. Believe me, if I was able to go and work for any company and transport my hard earned experience, I would. Came to Jazz with over 6000 hrs and shortly after there were college grads. Fair? Not really. Reality? You bet, if I had a offer to skip the bush right out of school, hell ya sign me up. But to say after 13 years of slugging it out in this industry, finally get somewhere I'm happy and now I'm a VULTURE, because another company's management or mis-management. I won't lose any sleep over it. If Jazz is hiring, and any SS pilots want to be here, welcome aboard, but there is no way I'm giving up my seniority because they chose to work at SS and I didn't.

[GTFA]

Sasktel,

I cannot imagine the solution that you may have to propose to address your concerns.

How about this one: We all become owner-operators. Like truck drivers. No seniority, no restrictions. Just go where the work is. When the work moves we just go with it. Or maybe become like doctors; go somewhere and hang a shingle saying OPEN, then work within rules set by "College" negotiating with industry regulators. Or maybe the lawyer template? They certainly compete amongst themselves for work.

You are obviously very unhappy with the structure and process of being a pilot in Canada. I wonder what type of structure you feel would ultimately be considered fair for all people for all time.

The approach that the Jazz pilots have taken could well be a game changer. What do you propose?

GTFA

[fivemoreminutes]

ya im sure the SSV guys are lined up right now for a chance at financial stability with jazz on the dash. if fact they are probably throwing up with excitement!

[Panama Jack]

So how many decades of seniority would be required to hold a Reserve line on the right seat of the 757 at Jazz?

[teacher]

Who cares how long, with status pay you'll make the same amount of money flying either the dash, CRJ or '57