Jazz (Thomas Cook)

[dc9driver]

..

[flyinhigh]

Well said one8tee,

I as well have met some great mainline guys, in the jump and on the road. Everyone of them was great and wondering the same thing, Why all the animosity? Because one company has this or that.

Lets just go you know what, thats awesome when I comes time to negotiate I hope we get that.

As for the 57 thing, Only on here when people Hide behind there secret idintity do people beek off, in the safe comfort of the computer. Fact is on the line, ALL, yes guys ALL of the mainline drivers have done nothing buy congrats for us, and hope it goes through.

safe flights folks

[ARCCOM]

It does not appear that Jazz managment was looking at what was best in the long run. Sure in the short run Jazz will aquire more revenue in their quest to diversify from the CPA. Up until now Jazz and AC had a relationship in which Jazz did exclusivly feed for AC and AC gave 100% of its feed to Jazz(except tier 3), this was a good relationship for Jazz. Now Jazz has changed that relationship by offering their services to a competitor of AC. It is true, as many at Jazz seem to be argueing, that Jazz has every right to do this. So should the same not apply to AC if they wish, and they will, want to diversify their feed? Would Jazz not cry foul if it was AC giving feed to a competitor of Jazz? When the CPA expires AC very well could take a lot of flying away from Jazz and give it to say CMA and Georgian, or even another regional start up. AC will then, to its advantage, play several of its regional feeds off each other as they compete for flying thus driving down the wages at the regional level similar to what has happened in the US. Just look at the situation in the US for what is to come. Jazz opened the floodgates and may have dug their own grave with this deal...

[PC12flyer]

ARCCOM

Air Canada probably would have done that even if Jazz hadn't diversified. This is a better business move for Jazz in my opinion. We have a contract with AC until at least 2020. At that point AC can do what ever it wants in terms of regional feed. Our management has realised this and as such knows that we have a limited amount of time to diversify the company so that the impact of such an event would be minimal. We are damned if we do, damned if we don't... this situation is a real catch 22. Either way, the future will be decided by people well above my pay grade.

[teacher]

Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy of debating this subject with some AC folks. We can't diversify because we do it for cheaper (status pay which isn't actually cheaper but more efficient however my head hurts so I won't explain it again) without AC pulling CPA flying away and giving it to another carrier and do it cheaper, WTF?

Giving a CPA to another company to do it for less "wages" (as a percentage of expenses) is a problem (Jazz doesn't pay less or won't after the bankruptcy contract is renegotiated but alas, my head still hurts). There is a big difference between Jazz diversifying with *gasp* 6-11 planes to do non CPA flying and AC pulling the CPA and awarding it to GGN or CMA to do it for less. I'd also like to point out that those guys are underpaid as well.

[ChallengerDan]

I am not convinced I get it right.

First argument:
AC is dying because of the CPA, they have the most favorable contract in North America, if CPA was renogotaited AC would be better off.

CPA has been renewed, with sensible reductions in resulting revenue for Jazz... yet they are still to expensive.

Second argument:
Jazz, by getting the Thomas Cook contract, are bringing the profession down.


Am I the only one who thinks things just don't add up?

Do you guys realize this is not only about pilot salary? An airline operation is a labour intensive endeavour. Pilot are a part of the equation for sure, but so is maintenance, grooming, handling, operatonal control, dispatch, crew sched, admin, hr, benefits, etc.

I can't buy that apparently we are way costly to be a good deal for AC and yet we are too cheap to be worthy of 757.


I feel for the guys at Skyservice. I really do. The matter of the fact is this: probably not the SSV employees fault that the corporation is going to be liquidated. I didn't hear anywhere that they were shutdown because the pilots were paid to much, the mechanics were lazy and the FA didn't care about their customers.
They were shut down because they had too much debt and not enough revenue so that creditors had confidence in recouping the money plus a little profit. If anything blame Gibralt Investments who probably paid this whole operation way too much in 2007 while the original owners (R. Payson and his associates) probably made a sweet profit out of it. Gibralt could not keep it afloat with the debt ratio they had.


Yes, it sucks, this business is for people who have money for them to make more. Not to pay for our lifestyle.
The business has changed and pilots are not payed the way they used to. The Golden age of aviation is long gone, I won't have a taste of it either. Sucks. I know. Yet I still love this business, I still make a lot more than the average canadian and I still have 30 good years ahead of me if i would like to change careers.

[teacher]

+1

Blaming the CPA with Jazz for ACs problems is like blaming your daily Timmies coffee for you debt problems. It's a drop in the bucket and besides, if it was that bad for business you bet AC would not have signed on for another 10 years.

[silverDart]

I would not wait for a legal opinion on what has just transpired but I would direct our legal team to start the counter-attack.
Injunction based on whatever makes the most noise comes to mind, even playing the safety card.
I would announce the ramping up of our industrial action committee(s).
I would take the lead in denouncing this deal, ahead of the Company if possible, just to force their hand so that they can back up publicly what they tell me privately, but with the courtesy of a heads up call:" Hi Calin, I am sorry you were caught off guard with this announcement. Here is the text of our press release that will hit the wire in an hour. Surely you will suppoprt us in our quest to protect the Company's viability".
A multi pronged approach would invove our Governmentr relations team, the Pres, the other unions, the media, the membership, etc...
I would not back down.

dc9driver......get a life. Making the most noise by "even playing the safety card"????? Seriously?

[fivemoreminutes]

Now essentially the scope cause is out the window now that this CPA has been renewed. What's to stop jazz from flying 767's next? We got some serious issues here folks!

[teacher]

Or A380s while were at it BUT never in direct competition with AC mainline in scheduled service so stop fear mongering and get your facts straight.

[mattedfred]

Now essentially the scope cause is out the window now that this CPA has been renewed. What's to stop jazz from flying 767's next? We got some serious issues here folks!

you hand WJ western Canada on a silver plate

then you hand PD YTZ on a silver plate

but you are concerned that one of the airlines you have contracted to provide lift for you MAY get 6 57's for 6 months of the year for 2 years

well at least you have your priorities straight

global solutions looks pretty good now eh?

we reap what we sow and i'm fine with how my MEC has behaved

[BLZD1]

Scope means any seats being paid for by Air Canada will be flown as per the ACPA scope agreement. The 757 loophole is the seats on the 757 is not being paid for by AC. When people are complaining about the high cost CPA, most are pissed about the amount of money going to the shareholder not what is going to the Jazz employee or the Jazz company.

I am wondering though with you guys are bidding on work to compete with AC on will affect the amount that will be going to the shareholder. If it goes down I would be willing to think the CPA will be modified. I think Joe is hoping that 757 flying will give more money to the shareholders. I hope he is right for Jazz's sake.

[Pratt]

I would not wait for a legal opinion on what has just transpired but I would direct our legal team to start the counter-attack.
Injunction based on whatever makes the most noise comes to mind, even playing the safety card.
I would announce the ramping up of our industrial action committee(s).
I would take the lead in denouncing this deal, ahead of the Company if possible, just to force their hand so that they can back up publicly what they tell me privately, but with the courtesy of a heads up call:" Hi Calin, I am sorry you were caught off guard with this announcement. Here is the text of our press release that will hit the wire in an hour. Surely you will suppoprt us in our quest to protect the Company's viability".
A multi pronged approach would invove our Governmentr relations team, the Pres, the other unions, the media, the membership, etc...
I would not back down.

dc9driver......get a life. Making the most noise by "even playing the safety card"????? Seriously?

SO dc9driver with playing the safety card are you saying that Jazz is unsafe? The company that your company has tasked
to provide the feed for your airline, who does 800 flights a day across North America? You think that bringing a new type into the fleet is not going to be safe? Jazz pilots will operate the new type with the same safety that they operate the rest of their current fleet.

[flyinhigh]

Jazz pilots will operate the new type with the same safety that they operate the rest of their current fleet.

Only difference is that our gnd services are going to be with service air, meaning are OTP is going to go WAAAAAY up now, even better than the 3rd place in North america that we sit now..

[jetdoc]

IF you think your OTP will improve with Serviceair..., well lets just say your kidding yourself!!

[ChallengerDan]

Not the sure the OTP will improve because of Servisair... but it might be less frustrating though when we are waiting for a ground crew to know that they are not hurting their own operation.
And not sure they will grieve us either when we marshall and park a flight...because with AirCanada handling, if they are not there...you can't be there either.

When asked, pretty much every Jazz pilot will tell you that usually the AIircanada handled stations are the worst.
But then they are also the most busy, and, let's face it, they probably have their priority set up according the THE big picture which we might not part of all the time.

[torx]

It's not so much to do with ground crews the last while, but a lot more to do with planning!

[flyinhigh]

It's not so much to do with ground crews the last while, but a lot more to do with planning!

I will agree with that, Smart Ass comments aside, for those of you that are on here from YYZ GHS. Good job in the last year. When I started here years back the gate holds were horrendous, now not so much.

[Jaques Strappe]

Now essentially the scope cause is out the window now that this CPA has been renewed. What's to stop jazz from flying 767's next? We got some serious issues here folks!

I don't see how this has anything to do with our scope clause at AC. If Jazz were replacing RJ's with 757's on the YYZ-YOW route or was contracting out Air Canada Vacations flying then yes, I would say there is an issue with scope. The Thomas Cook contract however is a totally and completely different reality won fair and square.

I am sorry to see the good people of Skyservice lose their jobs but I am very happy that the contract was awarded to Jazz rather than any other airline here and I am really thankful that a certain someone from Quebec City didn't start another airline to accommodate the contract.

I say best of luck.

[mattedfred]

Thanks Jaques. Very mature of you.

[Black Cat]

fivemoreminutes wrote:
Now essentially the scope cause is out the window now that this CPA has been renewed. What's to stop jazz from flying 767's next? We got some serious issues here folks!


Hey FiveMore,

You have some serious issues alright.

What stopped westjet from getting 6 757's? JAZZ. WJ got Tom Cooks summer flying, now your wanting to give them a B757 to practice kicking the red teams ass with on long hauls !?!?! Year after year westjets share of the domestic market continues to grow, now the vacation market is going to be owned by blue.

I refuse to belive your feelings are the norm at AC. I can tell you that your painting the normal guys with your crazy brush. You need to take a deep breath and realize that Jazz would not do anything to risk the CPA with AC. If we wanted to do that we would be talking with Westjet about a partnership

We are not the threat to your jobs, open your eyes wide and realize we are on the same team, you fart I smell it. Stop eating the beans in your crew meals.

[yycflyguy]

Um, JAZZ is a totally separate entity now. It does not matter if it is JAZZ or WJ operating 757s outside of the CPA, it is competition to AC and ACV. We stopped playing for the same team the day that Milton rode off into the sunset with a stripped out version of AC and millions in his pocket.

[mbav8r]

Um, Jazz flies around Air Canada passengers, yep sounds like different teams to me. All of the companies that were chopped up and sold are now seperate teams?
My definition of a TEAM is, a group of people working toward a common goal. So, if our team Captain doesn't see the value in Jazz diversifying it's revenue stream. Your group(ACPA) has said many times our CPA is too expensive and very recently it was redone for alot less money, would you be satisfied if Jazz didn't exist and 1500 pilots were out of work? The point has been made many times over, Thomas Cook would be in the market regardless of who was flying the planes, it's a far better option having the revenue coming to Jazz, than it would be to any of your real competitors. If you fail to see that you're blinded by your emotions and your obvious distatse for Jazz(Former Division of Air Canada)

[Rockford26]

Guys AC Jazz is NOT going into the vacation business as a AME working for Jazz we are hiring 20 new AME's because we will be servicing the 757 for Thomas Cook. They are on wet leases and other than that we have nothing to do with them, other than service the aircraft.

[prop2jet]

Guys AC Jazz is NOT going into the vacation business as a AME working for Jazz we are hiring 20 new AME's because we will be servicing the 757 for Thomas Cook. They are on wet leases and other than that we have nothing to do with them, other than service the aircraft.

I think you mean "Dry" lease. If you have heard otherwise... please share more.