VFR Minima in a Control Zone

[natej]

So I was having a friendly debate/discussion with some fellow classmates/controllers the other day, and the topic of VFR minima came up,

My argument was, that if the visibility was 3 miles, and the ceiling was 900 feet, a plane requesting to depart VFR could do so, and did not require SVFR authorization. Now, I DO know what it says in CARS. To remain VFR you must fly 500 ft AGL and 500 ft from cloud horizontally. BUT, nowhere in CARS does it say a 1000 foot ceiling is required for VFR flight. It simply says you must remain 500 ft horizontally from cloud, and remain 500 AGL. You could have a broken ceiling at 900, even 600 and still remain 500 ft from cloud. So anyways, we got into an argument pretty big, and couldnt agree on anything. I am pretty sure I am right, and just wondering how the rest of you interpret CARS? Can you depart VFR with a ceiling below 1000? I say yes.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... AC/2-0.htm Figure 2.7, near the middle.

[avfun]

The interpretation seems to change frequently. I'm told by some of the older guys in the unit that this has flip-flopped several times in their careers.

Currently, as far as the tower is concerned, all you need to worry about is visibility. Three miles and 300 feet, depart VFR. Two and a half miles and 1200 feet and you need to request special.

[modi13]

Perhaps that's because you're wrong: that's 500 feet vertically from cloud, and one mile horizontally. In flight, vertical distance is measured in feet (very handy considering that's the unit altimeters use) and lateral distance, such as visibility, is measured in miles (also very handy, since ASIs use miles per hour or nautical miles per hour). The reason that's the case is because of the speed at which an aircraft can travel vertically versus its forward speed: most aircraft don't climb at much more than 1000 feet per minute, but 500 feet horizontally isn't a lot of distance when a plane pops out of the cloud towards you with a total closing speed of 300 knots. Any time you see a distance measured in feet, it's almost certain that it's vertical (and, yes, I know there are exceptions, such as above 1000 feet outside of controlled airspace); before even reading the caption, you can make a safe assumption that you're looking at vertical separation.

[Bushav8er]

See this thread - its all there.

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=59061

[metal]

Did you even read the chart that you linked?

Control Zones
FLIGHT VISIBILITY - not less than 3 miles
DISTANCE FROM CLOUD - horizontally: 1 mile
vertically: 500 feet
DISTANCE AGL - vertically: 500 feet

[Indanao]

It has always been 1000' & 3 miles, or you must request a SVFR incoming or outgoing from what I was taught since 1971.

[Old Dog Flying]

For many years controllers were certified weather observors trained to provide cloud base and visibility. Then we got ceiliometers as a backup and continued doing the obs...until someone in Envirernment Canada said hold on there we are the only ones who can do that and suddenly tower controllers no longer knew how to judge cloud heights and the previously mentioned 300' ceiling could be ignored as being below VFR.

Then the ceilometer became God and varily the cloud bases became "...below 5000....above 5000' and the unbelievers in this world became confused. Amen brethern..so endeth the sermon for today.

PS: Then throw NavCan into the frey and its CYA time.

Anything below either 1000' and 3 sm is below VFR...remember control zones and visibility are statute miles not knautical.

[loopa]

So I was having a friendly debate/discussion with some fellow classmates/controllers the other day, and the topic of VFR minima came up,

My argument was, that if the visibility was 3 miles, and the ceiling was 900 feet, a plane requesting to depart VFR could do so, and did not require SVFR authorization. Now, I DO know what it says in CARS. To remain VFR you must fly 500 ft AGL and 500 ft from cloud horizontally. BUT, nowhere in CARS does it say a 1000 foot ceiling is required for VFR flight. It simply says you must remain 500 ft horizontally from cloud, and remain 500 AGL. You could have a broken ceiling at 900, even 600 and still remain 500 ft from cloud. So anyways, we got into an argument pretty big, and couldnt agree on anything. I am pretty sure I am right, and just wondering how the rest of you interpret CARS? Can you depart VFR with a ceiling below 1000? I say yes.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... AC/2-0.htm Figure 2.7, near the middle.

In a control zone, you have 500 AGL, 500 Vertically from CLOUD. If the ceiling is at 900 feet, you have to be 500 vertically separated from it, putting you at 400feet. So unless you're are taking off or landing, you can't be flying around at 400 feet. Now, I know that at some airport, with the approval of the control tower, they approve circuits at a lower altitude. So I suppose this is legal because they get away by saying the intention of the circuit is to land and take off again... interesting. What do you guys think?

[Nark]

My opinion?
Change to the FAA SVFR rules.

1sm. vis. Flight or observed. Observed can't be over ridden by flight vis.

[Old Dog Flying]

Nark: 1 sm is the minimum for SVFR. Just as you said "observed" but all quadrants and never trust a vis report by a pilot.

I drove to work at YPK one very foggy morning and on arrival the other controller was having a discussion with a spam-can driver who was telling my buddy that he had 15* miles vis and wanted t/o clx from 26R. I drove out to the runway and was sitting behind the C172 and if there was 1/8 mile vis that was a stretch.

Dick-head sheepishly taxiied back to the north ramp.

[natej]

No one here has really convinced me I am wrong yet...I understand it is the responsibility of the pilot to remain 500 AGL and 500 ft vertically from cloud. But he could do this if the ceiling was below 1000 ft...

Here's a scenario. Ceiling 008BKN. If a pilot wants to depart VFR, why can't he? What if only 5/8's of the sky is covered in cloud, or even 7/8? The onus is on the pilot to remain 500 ft vertically from cloud and 500 ft from the ground. What if there is a clear patch of sky from the airport to his route clear of the zone? Nowhere in CARS does it say he cannot depart with a ceiling below 1000. It simply says he must maintain the requried seperation from clouds.

[Old Dog Flying]

If the ceiling is LESS than 1000' or the visibility is Less than 3sm as observed by an accredited observor it is deemed to be SPECIAL VFR...what is so hard about that to understand? In which case the onus is on the pilot to request SVFR for departure or arrival.

[lilfssister]

Like Bushav8er said, this was discussed at length here:

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=59061