I've failed

[Shiny Side Up]

All you cry-babies on here wailing about how the poor instructors don't get paid enough to come in - are asserting that people have some kind of excellence-faucet that they'll tap in proportion to the compensation. BULLS***.
You are either doing it right, or you are not, your paycheque is secondary, sorry.

There is no excellence-faucet. By the same token, people aren't just born with striving for excellence either, its something they must be taught. New employees are blank slates to work with in many cases - especially considering the crowd we're talking about. Most of the fresh instructors I've hired might have had one or two previous jobs with little experience really in the world of work.

I'll do some simple business math here. We all know time is money. If an employee is also being paid low, the hard cash isn't the only bit of the problem. Its also indicative that the employer also spends less time on them as well. I see very often at flight schools where the relatively green employees are frequently thrown to the wolves. They're essentially left to judge themselves what "excellence" is. Their blank slate very rapidly gets chalked in badly. Instructors very frequently end up in a dog eat dog world - there's often not much help from their fellow instructors who are often all too keen to get the hours and the "meagre" money that's around.

Not getting paid enough, fine, you work for a dick, leave when you get the chance. If you really care about excellence you will get noticed, and an operator who has some brains will offer you something better.

And its a vicious circle. If you don't pay well, those who do strive for excellence are going to leave at the first opportunity and you as the employer will end up scraping the barrel bottom. Shouldn't excellent instructors command top dollar? If you pay low in the first place, you're going to get people with limited "excellence potential" flocking to your banner. Personally I don't get how many of my competitors can keep their business going when they have such a revolving door of instructors. Training people costs time and money, especially the time it takes to mold a new employee how you want them.

Lets put it this way: I don't have the complaint about my people that Michael has about his. I never worry that the boys aren't taking care of the machines. When they move on - and I'm certain they will - I'll be more than happy to give them a good reference.

[RFlyer]

If you read the original post and some of the followups, you would understand Michael is not complaining about "his people" - at least that's my impression after reading this thread. The actual "failure" he's referring to appears to be a failure to instill professional pride in others who work around the airport. So let's move on from that point, shall we?

It's the notion of the pride one takes in one's own work that I find interesting in this thread. The idea of taking pride in what one does and doing the job to the best of one's ability is something that is not taught in schools. And for this to happen in an individual two ingredients are required:

1) The individual has to have it in themselves to even give a damn about such things
2) The individual needs to be lucky enough to be employed by someone who sets the standards, provides mentor ship, sets an example by always doing a job to the best of their ability and always provides constructive feedback to their employee with the goal of extracting even better performance from them the next time they do the job. Such people tend to be rare, but if you find one, become like "grasshopper":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyJRXvPNRo


Think of the Rampies on Ice Pilots NWT and imagine which of them meet the criteria for 1 and which ones don't. Where do you fit in?

Finding a boss like that in 2, above, ain't so easy. And if a person doesn't have the intrynsic desire to be the best they can be, then it doesn't even matter if they find 2 (and what a waste if they did).

If one were to find themselves in this situation, then likely they would feel nurtured and would be unlikely to quit for a higher paying job elsewhere, at least in the beginning; after all, their new boss might be a dick. If you stick with a person like in 2, above, long enough, you could run your own business and have a hope of making a go of it. If you were just in it for the money or had a dick for a boss, or both, then you will probably never be happy. Go buy lottery tickets and hope for the best.

An interesting fact is that if you hate your job, no amount of money will be enough to keep you there. If you like your job and are doing well at it, then additional income/rewards might be nice, but they don't play as significant role in making you stay as the intangibles do. Things like atmosphere, working conditions, benefits, how well you get along with your colleagues, how well respected you feel are examples of "intangibles". If you went to the same job every day and didn't feel respected, you'd likely be gone pretty quickly, regardless of how much you made. We've all seen/heard of people go out of their way to vandalize company property before leaving. A content ex-employee doesn't burn bridges.

Although I'm not employed in the aviation biz, I take pride in the way I treat other people's aircraft and always (as one other poster mentioned) try to leave it in better condition than it was when I found it.

In Mike's specific post, people from a nearby flying school are the ones who didn't come and check on things. That is surprising, given the reported condition of their machines. I think it's unrealistic to blame people for not showing up, depending on their own circumstances. The likelihood of someone making an appearance would be inversely proportional to the distance from the airport to their house plus the circumstances in their lives on that day.

But you'd think _someone_ from the school would have shown up to make sure everything was fine - and while they were at it, pointed the planes back in the right direction at the same time. Bizarre. Truly strange.

[Oor Wullie]

I thought most schools hire a GROUND HANDLER for things like this. (Tie-downs, oil, fuel, window cleaning, marshaling, towing....etc)

Mike, you should look into that. What is min wage on your neck of the woods?.....I bet it's peanuts compared to the replacement and insurance cost of your precious a/c.

[200hr Wonder]

I thought most schools hire a GROUND HANDLER for things like this. (Tie-downs, oil, fuel, window cleaning, marshaling, towing....etc)

Mike, you should look into that. What is min wage on your neck of the woods?.....I bet it's peanuts compared to the replacement and insurance cost of your precious a/c.

Oor Wullie I think you are missing the point 100%.

First of all in ZBB where mike is there is a company that provides fueling.

Are you suggesting you are above ground handling your own aircraft? Ensuring your own windows are clean and the aircraft is clean?

Then you can hit the bricks and keep on walking. I know of almost no company that would want an employee like that. Even WestJet has the pilots come out and groom the aircraft on turns. Everyone from flight schools to Air Canada wants people who take pride in there machines.

As for a flight school, I really don't see the need for a rampie. A student and instructor are quite capable of doing that.

Take pride in your work and make sure you take care of what pays your bills. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO LEAVE YOUR EQUIPMENT WORSE THAN YOU FOUND IT. It is not acceptable EVER to damage your equipment because of neglect or laziness.

[Oor Wullie]

200hr Wonder

Are you suggesting you are above ground handling your own aircraft? Ensuring your own windows are clean and the aircraft is clean?

No. I have my own a/c. I do all of these myself. When I go to a flight school to rent, I expect "Mike's" equipment to be well kept and maintained by "HIM". If, understandably, "he" is unavailable to do this himself...I expect "him" to hire someone that can. I think YOU missed the point. "Mike" provides a service. If this service doesn't fir the needs of his clients, there are plenty of other rental places that do.

"Mike" was used only to put a point across. I have not been to his operation. Therefore, his name was used as a general basis and geared towards all owners.

Even WestJet has the pilots come out and groom the aircraft on turns.

These guys are 'owners.' I would do the same. Bad example.

YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO LEAVE YOUR EQUIPMENT WORSE THAN YOU FOUND IT.

Well that's stating the obvious. Where was that implied?

As for a flight school, I really don't see the need for a rampie.

I know of MANY flight schools that require them do to shear volume.

[Old Dog Flying]

oor Wullie: I don't know or care what planet you fell off of but having managed 5 flying schools and flown for a dozen more over the past 60 years, I don'know of a single one that hires "rampies"...just to keep their aircraft clean and groomed.

And instructors are the worst "pigs" in the world when it comes to filth in aircraft. I've seen a dozen or more coffee cups pulled out from behind the seats; cigarette butts and ash overflowing the miiscual ash tray; dozens of pens and pencils picked out of everywhere...and all instructor crap.

So now have one of them tie down an aircraft? Not my job sez he! As much as I hate Michael's constant whining like a turbine and his bitching about CDNs, he does look after his aircraft. During a very heavy snowfall last year, while all of the other aircraft were sagging under a lot of snow and some dragging their tails, his were just fine and as a side note his brother went out to Langley to clean off his Cherokee and spent some time cleaning other aircraft as well. It runs in the family I guess.

[MichaelP]

Thank's for the compliment Barney...
During that heavy snowfall last year I cleared as many aeroplanes of snow as I could on the ramp where our aeroplanes are parked.
Like my brother I'll do what I can for my fellow aviators, though I think he does too much for too little!

The sad thing last year was seeing the serious damage to aircraft at Pitt Meadows where nobody seems to have been able to get there and clear the heavy snow off.
Rain into the snow on a wing will put a huge load on it... It could even cause a fatal crash of an aeroplane that has unknowingly been over stressed.

On a human note... It has to be a fact that anyone into flying these days cannot be in it for the money.
So why do we do it?

I have advised many people to go get a degree, a good education, and get the job that will pay for the nice aeroplane.
There are too many people doing the CPL for the wrong reasons.

If you have a passion for flying, enough to pay the huge expense of learning to fly, then why wouldn't you want to look after the aeroplanes that feed that passion?

This bleating about money for this and money for that shows a complete lack of heart for this flying 'business'.
If you want to be paid properly, spend that CPL money on getting a good education and then a good [non-aviation] job.
Flying in Canada for good money has gone down the tube.
It has in the USA as well.
It's still up there in Europe, but for how much longer?

I spoke to my neighbour in Ladner, he had just gone through the BCIT program and after spending that huge sum of money [$85,000?].
He was once a postman... Delivering the mail paid him more take-home money than I get!
What will he do now???

I have two more Katanas downstairs, 100hp, they'll climb better and perhaps even go faster... I need another Class 3 or Class 2 instructor for this summer.
The person needs to be enthusiastic and a morning person too... It's a brilliant morning here this morning, it's also my day off!
I need the right sort, this person seems to be a rare person if this thread is anything to go by.

We pay better than most here, and we reward people for the extra efforts they put in.
Instructors get training and a certain amount of flying to build their competence; I try to do my job [vocation???].

[Snagmaster E]

I wasn't paid much to instruct. Worked at one school and had a great boss, the best. The other, not so much. I worked especially hard for the former. Pay helps, but if you're treated well, then you will work hard. At least that's how I've always seen it. I worked hard for my low pay, but, as somebody said, when the opportunity came up, I left. Not for reasons related to bad work, but for career advancement. I hated to leave (well, not the pay), but my boss understood why. He had become wealthy outside of the flight school, and therefore took no pay for himself (I'm sure he made money, but you see my point). Had me over for dinner several times, helped pay to renew my IFR. I invited him to my wedding. Great job, and, so far, the best flying job I've had so far. The bottom line, I was APPRECIATED.

Pay does help, but it shouldn't be the only thing. If you're treated well (and I mean WELL), then pay should be secondary. Have pride in what you do. I'm not saying that I agree with the way things are in the industry, with regards to paying dues and all, but I've been paid more at jobs, and felt under-appreciated. Treated like a means to an end, and if you don't like it, we'll get someone else to do the job. It's funny, there's a thread about CargoJet with regards to salary and benefits, and one person there, who works on the office-side of things, is calling the employees "pathetic" for talking about issues on the forums, then says that there is an open-door policy in the same breath. Now who would want to work for a company like that? I don't care if you're paid in golden bricks wrapped in chocolate. If the company treats you like shit, then you'll work like shit. Golden rule.

MichealP, I don't know you. If you're sincere about your first post, and treat your employees with respect and appreciation, then I agree. They should show some pride, and not look at you as just a stone to step on to get to the major carrier. But in the same vein, don't expect career-minded work ethic from all, as some just don't have it in them.

JMHO

[Shiny Side Up]

This bleating about money for this and money for that shows a complete lack of heart for this flying 'business'.
If you want to be paid properly, spend that CPL money on getting a good education and then a good [non-aviation] job.

Personally Michael, that's bullcrap and you know it. Simple point - to run a sucessful business, you need to have your heart and money into it. You can run a break even business with just money. You'll be closing a business if you're running it with just heart. Everyone else who you see outside in a "non-aviation job" knows this very well and as much as they love it, take pride in it. Don't think for a second that they've lost site of how important the money side of it is. I have no special love for money - but its friggin important. Too many pilots lose sight of this - hence they can't run sucessful businesses. They don't have their eye on the ball. I see a lot of flying businesses which aren't up to their full potetntial in terms of making the money. How often do you see schools with planes on the line that satisfy pilot dreams more than they do business sense?

You can show all the heart in the world, but that don't pay for airplane fuel. The ammount of heart I put into this doesn't pay our hangar lease, and as chummy and good of a guy as I am to our contracted AMO he wants to be paid at the end of the day. "Job love" doesn't pay the wages and it certainly doesn't pay VISA.

When it comes to training people to act in a professional manner, and take pride in their work it goes hand in hand with teaching them where the money goes. If you don't know where the money goes in your business then your equally guilty of not putting your heart into it as not tieing your airplane down correctly.

[mcrit]

This bleating about money for this and money for that shows a complete lack of heart for this flying 'business'.
If you want to be paid properly, spend that CPL money on getting a good education and then a good [non-aviation] job.

Wow. I don't even know what to say to that. Mike, take some time off, you are starting to crack.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My 02 cents

1) The reality of the way the flying training business is structured makes it effectively impossible to pay a new instructor anything but poverty wages. This is not right but it will not change so I just tune out whiny instructors. You knew what you were getting into into and nobody forced you to becoming an FI ....so STFU.

2) When you start as a Class 4 you have some skills and knowledge but a huge amount to learn. The best thing you first job can provide is not money but continuing education and training. This is one area where many FTU's are sadly deficient. I was lucky when I started as a fligjht instructor I had a demanding hands on boss whoo taught me alot about aviation.

3) If the airplanes are not flying the school is not making money. If the school is not making money than you won't be either. The attraction and retention of students is a big part of your job.

4) The airplane is the tool by which you earn you living. A smart person takes care of their tools. If this is inconvient .....tough shit .....but it will get noticed and can be the difference between guys/gals succeed and those who go nowhere in this industry

[MichaelP]

This bleating about money for this and money for that shows a complete lack of heart for this flying 'business'.

Let's read this the way it was meant to be understood.

If you are in the flying 'business' for the money you have a lot of problems understanding reality.
I've been around this 'business' for a lot longer than some of you and I have understood this reality even when I ran my own flying 'business'.

Note how I write 'business'
Nobody does this 'business' as a profit making enterprise, there are a lot better business opportunities out there.

The problem in Canada is the USA.
The problem in Britain is the USA.
The problem in Europe is the USA.

No one can compete with the USA on price.

Canada comes closer to the USA price and I can quote a person from ATAC who stated that the only way to compete with the USA here while Avgas and other costs rise is by paying the instructors below the legal minimum wage.

So why do instructors go through their expensive training to become Class IVs when their own instructors complain so much about their lot in life?
It can't be for the money!
A Class IV candidate should not be at the same comprehension level as the starry eyed airline 'want to be' who has just had his first familiarisation flight, a Class IV candidate should have his eyes open and understand the reality.

So if it's not for the money, why is it?
Flying hours to go on to the next abusive level?
Or is there a rose coloured dream of a well paying easy airline job with respect from one's peers and perhaps the adoration of the cabin crew?

I think a lot of people need to evaluate just why they are doing the 'job' they are doing.
If it's for the right reason then doing it to the best of one's abilities and with pride in the work ethic is highly important.
It takes "heart" to be a professional in this 'business'...

I am the last one in the world to ride on someone... I try very hard to make sure people are properly rewarded, but even I have limitations dictated by the reality of operating in Canada with the USA just south of us!

Today I came in to work first, and then I had a ride from Langley up Howe Sound, Whistler, over Pemberton, down to Harrison Lake, and into Rowena's for lunch... There's a lot of compensations over and above the money thing in this 'business'.
It's a way of life.

[YOWza]

The problem in Canada is the USA.

The flying environment there is definitely more fun and lots cheaper. There's still places with well-maintained aircraft that cost 30-40% less per hour. When I was a FAA PPL holder, I moved to Canada...when I was ready to do my CPL, IFR, and Multi, I compared prices and headed straight south again. Why rent the typical Canadian 152 with the interior destroyed and rough paint on the airframe that has the properties of frost for $115/hr when you can fly a well-maintained 152 in the US for under $70/hr? In 200 hours that ends up being alot of money.
On the non-money side of things, I have never met so many un-enthusiastic pilots in my life until coming up here(especially younger instructors). I'm not sure what happened to make the culture so bland, but it is certainly discouraging. Where is the zest for flying?

[MichaelP]

There you are, you get it from YOWza as well...

In this part of the world we are asked "Don't you think Vancouver is the best city in the world?"; be careful how you answer.
Many people here cannot know whether this is true, many people have not seen the many other places on this planet and so with what can they compare?
It is a beautiful setting, fantastic mountain scenery, and indeed it could be 'one' of the most beautiful cities on the planet.
But it is heading for ruin... A cancerous growth of chipboard palaces is marching eastwards spoiling the land.
Canadians have no concept of "Green Belt".

Likewise aviation here could be fantastic... I had a superb flight yesterday, very scenic, the type of flight many of us who inhabit the Glen Valley rarely have...
But many of us are not concerned... We need hours, hours, hours, we complain about the money we feel we should get, and we lose sight of aviation as a pleasurable pursuit.
We don't care, we taxy our Cessna 172's while burying the nose leg and picking up the crap on the ground because we can't be bothered to pull the control column back and add those precious extra inches... This is one of many losses of good airmanship to be witnessed today.

Flying is not a career, it's a way of life.
We like to live in clean houses, most of us, and are prepared to put in the work that is necessary. Nobody pays us to look after the place we sleep.
But we seem to forget this when we fly aeroplanes.
We've become soul-less people without regard for our way of life... We focus on the pay we're not getting.

Change in attitude is necessary.
I didn't learn to fly for a job... Nearly all of my contemporaries learned to fly likewise, for fun, for life.
Commercial aviation is a disaster in Canada, we need to develop the recreational market and introduce people to the fun of flying.
People who fly for fun have much more regard for the aeroplanes they fly, and have much more interest in doing it properly.

This is my last post on here.
Best of luck in your flying everybody.
You know where I am, drop in for tea and a chockie biscuit any time you like.

[Injun]

I believe in my limited experience that nothing you do is truly a way of life. Long in the tooth way of accepting below standard wages/conditions/hours etc.

We all do something for a living that is a means to an end. If that end happens to be something that we end up loving to do (flying, wrenching etc.) than that's great. Maybe I feel that pumping gas is a way of life for me but I can't sell that to my wife and kids when I can't afford the basics of a "decent" life.

So, I will go about doing what I find I enjoy doing (flying/wrenching) that is the means to an end to make my life outside "work" (MY way of life) more enjoyable.

Commonplace for employers to phrase a career in this way to sugarcoat the reality of it all. Once you buy your own aircraft and enjoy flying when you wish to, you could call it a way of life. If your way of life consists of making someone else wealthy while enjoying a substandard wage (for the level of responsibility)(flying or wrenching,again) than you are a better person than I.

In closing, money talks, b.s. walks. Min. wage min. effort and if you want someone to work FOR you that has the same passion as you, it had better be your mother!

[mcrit]

Quote:

This bleating about money for this and money for that shows a complete lack of heart for this flying 'business'.

Let's read this the way it was meant to be understood.

Perhaps, in future, you should try harder to write things the way you want them to be read, because the way you expressed yourself there invites animosity.

Let's take a look at your original complaint; Nobody came out to check on the aircraft after a big storm. Valid complaint. Whose fault is it? Not the junior instructor's. It is management's fault. It is management's responsibility to see that that is done, either directly or by delegating it to someone else. Alternatively, they could try and foster an environment where everyone takes ownership of care for the assests. Either way the problem originates at the top. It is not reasonable to expect the people at the lowest rungs of the ladder to spontaneously come in on their time off and look after company assests. If you want that done, designate someone and compensate them.

If you are in the flying 'business' for the money you have a lot of problems understanding reality.

That sort of thinking is why FOs at airlines in North American have to live on KD. It is why Ryanair can operate. It is why certain companies can charge $8000 for a C310 checkout and then expect their 'graduates' to work for free. It is why certain operators can charge new CPLs ~$1000 for a jump pilot course and then expect them to work for free.

I didn't learn to fly for a job...

Then you shouldn't have tried to turn it into one.

[westcoasting]

Quit blasting your employees on a public message board. You are doing nothing but making your company look bad. What do you think they will think when they read this, and know that their boss is airing them out on a public message board. Your elitist attitude leaves a lot to be desired. I feel sorry for anyone that works for you.

[CarbHeat]

Perhaps you should read, (or re-read), the three pages of posts following MichaelP's initial post, westcoasting. You seem to have misunderstood.

[cplpilot]

I red this thread with interest... i am not a flying instructor but i will tell what i always tried to say in my flying school.
I got my PPL in europe and the rest in Canada, i lived the good and the bad of these schools.
In europe i had a old 60 years old instructor, former military and former heavy metal cpt. that passed me some of his experience, stories, skills. He did not get too much money as he got a pension too but i learned A LOT from him, as a person and as a pilot. He showed me how to tie planes, they used chains instead of those ropes that are a hell to tied specially when new.
In Canada i appreciated the organizations, the procedures and attentiveness to safety but i was always skeptic to have an instructor with the same amount of hours than me.
Young people do not have experience and if they are not told, we cannot expect to have the same care that we have.
I personally would let the youngester fly jets off the schools with a GOOD cpt on the side and have them back teaching 10,000 hours later... that is only my opinion though...

[Bede]

He showed me how to tie planes, they used chains instead of those ropes that are a hell to tied specially when new.

I'm sure this guy had lots to teach, but how to tie airplanes is not one of them. You never use chains because there is no give in them and all the stress is transferred to the airframe. This will considerably increase the amount of fatigue in the airframe. In fact, aircraft should be tied rather loosely (not too lose). This will stop the aircraft from going anywhere and perhaps stress the airframe a bit if it needs the ropes to stop it, but it will not fatigue the structure.

[Invertago]

He showed me how to tie planes, they used chains instead of those ropes that are a hell to tied specially when new.

I'm sure this guy had lots to teach, but how to tie airplanes is not one of them. You never use chains because there is no give in them and all the stress is transferred to the airframe. This will considerably increase the amount of fatigue in the airframe. In fact, aircraft should be tied rather loosely (not too lose). This will stop the aircraft from going anywhere and perhaps stress the airframe a bit if it needs the ropes to stop it, but it will not fatigue the structure.

Forget the chains and ropes, just get the insurance

[cplpilot]

the chain was at the top of a rope but had a locking mechanism thak was safe and easy to use... did not explain well because i think the point was another one, i will get you a picture next time with a chart for the loading...

[Randleman]

Michael, I totally agree with you. It's your kind of work ethic that employers seek-and for those like you, it will pay off eventually. To all you whiners who say "if I'm not getting paid, I'm not doing it." boo freeaaakiinngg hoooo. You obviously have no desire for your company to succeed, and you are therefore relatively useless to your company. An employer, no matter how good or bad, notices a good attitude, and notices someone who will take the extra step to help them, and that's how you succeed in this industry.

[GTODD]

So Randleman, would you consider this guy a whiner?

I'm sorry... I had to get up at 5:30 to work a 14-hour day at my second job to pay my bills. I'll try harder next time...

[Injun]

Randleman, you are quite clearly in the wrong on this one. Boo hoo to you. Read my thought a few posts ago and try and answer back intelligently if possible.