Polish Pesident Dies in Crash

[Mig29]

no comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgeT-F9- ... re=related

[armani]

Yes. And image doing this with no ILS.

[robbreid]

Some very solemn photos from a Nation in Mourning . . .

Click Here

[westcoasting]

Anyone else surprised by how badly the plane was destroyed? I would think given their speed that there might have been some survivors

[Pirx]

Regardless of the reason for this accident, this is an insulting and unfounded generalization. And yes I am Polish.
And yes it does look like pilot incompetence in this case.

First I didn't intend to offend - it's my personal experience and was not directed at any particular nationality but at at the aviation culture that emerged from Eastern Europe once they started to work commercially world wide --

And yes it does look like pilot incompetence in this case

-- I never said it was pilot incompetence - likely the very opposite - well trained and with military background - just 20 years behind in the philosophy. Why else would multiple non precision approaches be carried out in dense fog -- once upon a time that was also the norm here.

Thanks LC.
I don't think its fair to generalize like that when Polish civil aviation has operated with good safety record for decades.
Having said that, you may have a point regarding the military pilots. There has been a CASA accident two years ago in Poland.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 20080123-0

[flyinthebug]

Anyone else surprised by how badly the plane was destroyed? I would think given their speed that there might have been some survivors

At first yes, but then last night NBC showed an animation of what they believe occured (Jim Nanze) and it seems the aircraft was in a 70-80 degree bank at impact. They hit wing tip first and that started a barrel roll (again NBC not my own speculation) If they are correct in their hypothesis, this would explain the no survivors and terrible devastation of the aircraft.

[intel]

The pilot may have had an incorrect altimeter setting for the 4th and final approach..... I know its speculation!!!

But one hPa = 30 feet, so being 10 hPa too low would put it 300 feet lower than it should be on the final approach portion. it could happen!! And he was ducking 100 feet under MDA just to take a peek!!

Add the fact that the pilot has just done 4 approaches, he has his kids in the cockpit, fails to arm his spoilers, he has a slippery runway, runs out of fuel, he flew through volcanic ash cloud to get to Russia, bees built a nest on his pitot tube, and the cargo door separated in flight sucking a passenger out. I wouldn't be surprised if we see this on a mayday episode soon.

[Lost in Saigon]

The consensus on PPRUNE is that the aircraft only did one approach. The confusion comes from the fact it circled 3 times before attempting a PAR type approach.

The aircraft descended below the glidepath and did not respond to ATC to correct the glidepath angle.

I did a few PAR approaches back in Winnipeg in the 1980's. One time I saw the runway at about 300' and fixated on it. I started to descend below the glidepath because I was now visual. The military controller started to tell me to first to correct, and then abort the approach. He started getting a really panicky tone to his voice as I failed to respond. I was too busy trying to maintain the runway in sight to respond, and I ended up landing well below the glidepath. He was just very relieved that I landed OK.

It possible that the TU-154 crew saw some visual clue and then did something like I did, only with less success.

[Brewguy]

...I fondly remember a crew that was trying to please their boss, and on their 3rd approach they drove it into the trees killing 7 of 19 on board. Pressure from "the boss" no matter who he or she thinks they are, usually ends up someway like this. IF whats being rumoured is true, that makes this even more of a shame and tragedy then would normally be the case. Like Cats signature says.. The hardest part of flying is learning when to say NO. If the pilots had in this case and the case im describing, then I wouldnt have had to go to 5 funerals in 5 days, and this accident MAY never have happened. I find it quite interesting how we are the authors of our own fate sometimes. Again, my condolences to the crew and all who were affected by this loss...

Very slightly off topic - but while on this train of thought... here's a suggestion for any corporate pilots out there (or military/government types who fly VIPs):

Spend a couple of hours downloading some info on a couple of these types of accidents, including an 'executive summary' of any accident report, and a whole bunch of photos of the wreckage. Throw them together into a short booklet type document, go on down to your local copy shop and have a few copies printed off on a colour laser printer and have the booklets bound, etc. Now keep a copy in your flight bag, and have one handy every time you fly someone important.

Now, when you're being pressured into doing something you know is stupid, toss a copy back at the (important) passenger(s) in question, and tell them "here's some light reading for you to enjoy while I do my job and keep all of us safe". Then wait and see how much pressure you get.

[Lost in Saigon]

Some photos:

[IBPilot]

it seems the aircraft was in a 70-80 degree bank at impact.

I've been reading up on this accident and honastly, I was shoked to see that the common speculation was an angle of bank of this magntiude at impact. Even though they may have assumed they were higher than they thought, they would know of their approximate distance from the ground because they were near the airport and any aircraft doing that kind of banking near the ground, in the visibility they were encountering is quite surprising.

Really, in all, this accident is a unfortunate combination of events and situations that lead to a very tragic disaster.

My sincere regards for family and all those who are grieving

[flyinthebug]

it seems the aircraft was in a 70-80 degree bank at impact.

I've been reading up on this accident and honastly, I was shoked to see that the common speculation was an angle of bank of this magntiude at impact. Even though they may have assumed they were higher than they thought, they would know of their approximate distance from the ground because they were near the airport and any aircraft doing that kind of banking near the ground, in the visibility they were encountering is quite surprising.

Really, in all, this accident is a unfortunate combination of events and situations that lead to a very tragic disaster.

My sincere regards for family and all those who are grieving

0 vis, lack of situational awareness= vertigo maybe? Pure speculation of course!

Lost in Saigon, great pics! Im obviously not the only one who noticed what you have red boxed with a ? Am I the only one that thinks that looks like a piece of the elevator?

[IBPilot]

Am I the only one that thinks that looks like a piece of the elevator?

From the looks of it, it would appear to be the elevator from the left horizontal stab...

[Lost in Saigon]

Speculation is that the first impact was before the highway.

[IBPilot]

Speculation is that the first impact was before the highway.

Speculation is the key word --- from looking at the field around that "supposed" elevator, it seems a bit out of place (nothing else around). Although it looks like the left evelvator of an aircraft, it's likely just a peice of tin or metal scrap...

I wish there was more concrete evidence...like perhaps "the boxes"

[Pirx]

From a Polish online news: the boxes have been recovered and are being examined by the russians with polish investigators present.

[ETOPS]

Anyone know Polish? Is this ANIMATION derived from onboard data?

[Pirx]

I've seen that animation 2 days ago.
The data from 2 recorders was recovered yesterday, so the answer is no.
One of the investigators announced there was only one approach.

[linecrew]

Am I the only one that thinks that looks like a piece of the elevator?

From the looks of it, it would appear to be the elevator from the left horizontal stab...

Could be the wingtip after initial contact. Lack of full aileron control might explain the roll...just sayin.

[IBPilot]

Am I the only one that thinks that looks like a piece of the elevator?

From the looks of it, it would appear to be the elevator from the left horizontal stab...

Could be the wingtip after initial contact. Lack of full aileron control might explain the roll...just sayin.

Very true. But then again, if it is a wing tip, one of two situations apply and the second is likely most correct. (1) Either the aircraft wing hit the ground at that point thus explaining why the wing tip and aileron were severly damaged or the wingtip (area around the left aileron) broke off initially and then the plane made contact. Either way, it is rather interesting to see that the piece of scrap is all by itself and from the looks of it, there is no trail of ground contact around the piece of metal. Big questions that I don't have answers for... just some speculations of my own.

Regards

[armani]

Some very solemn photos from a Nation in Mourning . . .

Click Here

Huge tragedy... could they survive if they were descending horizontally?

Read some comments, no surprise Poles started blaming Russians for this crash.

[Prospect]

The role of the Polish president in the air crash in which he and 95 others died has been called into question amid suggestions he many have put pressure on the pilot to land despite bad weather warnings.

Andrew Osborn in Moscow and Matthew Day in Warsaw
Published: 8:18PM BST 12 Apr 2010


Russian aviation experts claimed that "VIP passenger syndrome" could have played a part in causing of the tragedy, as it was disclosed that Lech Kaczynski had previously tried to sack a pilot who refused to land a plane for him in dangerous circumstances.
Black box recordings have confirmed that the pilot, Arkadiusz Protasiuk, an experience airman serving with the Polish air force, had ignored warnings to divert to another airport because of heavy fog.


However, it has been suggested that Mr Kaczynski did not want to miss a ceremony for the 22,000 Poles massacred by Soviet forces in the Second World War and may have urged the air crew to continue trying to land the plane.
Viktor Timoshkin, an aviation expert, said: "It was quite obviously 'VIP passenger syndrome'. Controllers suggested that the aircraft's crew divert the plane to an alternate route. I am sure that the commander of the crew reported this to the president. But in response, for whatever reasons, he had a clear order to land."
In August 2008, Mr Kaczynski "shouted furiously" at a pilot who had disobeyed his order to land his plane in then war-torn Georgia for safety reasons. He later tried to have Captain Grzegorz Pietuczak removed from his post with the Polish air force for insubordination, however, Donald Tusk, the Prime Minister intervened. Captain Pietuczak was later awarded a medal for carrying out his duties conscientiously for his refusal to land having judged the risks.
A Russian aviation expert said yesterday: "If he tried to land three times and fell on the fourth then he probably had the 2008 incident in mind and that was why he felt he had to land at any price. In effect, he did not take the decision but the main passenger on board did - even if the main passenger did not utter a word to the pilot."
Andrzej Seremet, Poland's chief prosecutor, said that there was no information from the investigation so far to suggest that Mr Kaczynski had put undue pressure on the pilot.
A senior air traffic controller at the Russian airport where the Polish plane was trying to land stirred controversy by suggesting that the Polish pilots' poor knowledge of the Russian language was to blame.
"They were supposed to give us a report about their altitude on the approach to landing," he said. "They did not give it." When asked why, he said: "Because they have a bad command of the Russian language. There were Russian speakers among them but for them numbers were quite complex."
It came as tensions between Russia and Poland over the air crash were escalated when a Polish MP claimed the Kremlin was partly to blame for the tragedy.
The two countries have set aside centuries of mutual distrust to present a united and recrimination-free front but yesterday Artur Gorski, a member of the Law and Justice party founded by Mr Kaczynski, said that Russia may have tried to deliberately prevent Mr Kaczynski's plane from landing and thereby indirectly caused his death.
Mr Gorski said: "One version of events says that the plane approached the airport four times, because every time the Russians refused it permission to land; they wanted to send the plane with the president to an airport in Moscow or Minsk,
"They came up with some dubious reasons: that there was fog over the airport, that the navigation system didn't work as it was under repair, and that the airport had a short landing strip."
Mr Gorski suggested that the real reason Moscow did not want President Kaczynski to land was because he was due to attend a ceremony marking the 70th anniversary of an infamous Soviet massacre of Polish officers.
The Russians, he claimed, did not want Mr Kaczynski to upstage a similar event hosted by Vladimir Putin, the Russian prime minister, a few days earlier.
The Kremlin may also have feared that the Polish president, a noted hawk when it came to Russia, may have planned to criticise Moscow for not issuing a proper apology for the 1940 massacre, he added.
Mr Putin, who has taken charge of the investigation into the air crash, which is being carried out by both Russian and Polish teams, yesterday promised an "objective and thorough" investigation.
Bronislaw Komorowski, Poland's acting head of state, has announced an immediate review of regulations, or the lack of them, governing just which political and military leaders can fly together. The air crash was carrying nine senior military leaders, as well as the governor of Poland's central bank.

[flyincanuck]

Anyone know Polish? Is this ANIMATION derived from onboard data?

It didn't mention that the information was from the CVR/FDR

It said that circled the airport three times to "become familiar with the topography".

On the approach they hit a radio station (antenna), and trees (depicted in the animation).

[Brewguy]

Russians are blaming the pilots:

Pilot blamed for Polish president's plane crash

WARSAW (AFP) - Russian investigators said on Thursday that black boxes from the air crash that killed Poland's president showed pilot error was to blame, as protests grew over the late leader's burial site.

Hundreds have taken to the streets and tens of thousands joined a Facebook campaign to lay president Lech Kaczynski to rest in Krakow's historic Wawel castle alongside royalty, a saint and past national heroes.

In Moscow, a report said first analysis of data recorders from the jet, which crashed near the Russian city of Smolensk en route to a World War II memorial, showed the crew were unfamiliar with the plane's handling.

"An analysis of the evidence, including the first results from the decoding of the black boxes, shows that an error in piloting led to the disaster," the Interfax news agency quoted a source close to the investigation as saying.

The official said it appeared that on its fourth and final attempt the Russian-made Tupolev Tu-154 plane tried to land by levelling its altitude after descending, in a bid to compensate for heavy fog in the area.

"A particularity of the plane is that if its speed of descent is more than six metres (20 feet) per second, when the plane equalized and goes into a horizontal flight it loses altitude," the source said.

Interfax said two of the black boxes found at the scene of the crash were being examined by Russian and Polish investigators at a defence ministry investigation centre in the Moscow region. A third is being examined in Poland.

Air traffic controllers have said the crew repeatedly ignored advice to land at another airport. Investigators have already ruled out fire or an explosion.

All 96 people on board the plane were killed. They were heading to a memorial service at Katyn, near Smolensk, for 22,000 Polish officers and troops killed by Soviet forces in World War II 70 years ago.

Poland on Thursday continued to count the cost of the crash, as a military aircraft carried home the body of Ryszard Kaczorowski, 90, a leader in exile who kept the dream of freedom alive during communism.

Kaczorowski was president of the London-based Polish government-in-exile from World War II until Warsaw's communist regime fell four decades later.

Poland's top four military commanders and state bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek were also among the dead.

Poland's interim president Bronislaw Komorowski said Thursday the choice of a new central bank chief depends on expert legal opinions due late this week, "so next week I'll be more likely able to say what my position is."

An early presidential election to replace Kaczynski is expected on June 20.

US President Barack Obama, Russian leader Dmitry Medvedev and Britain's Prince Charles are among the foreign dignitaries who are set to attend the increasingly controversial funeral.

Around 200 people demonstrated in central Warsaw late Wednesday and hundreds more took to the streets of the Baltic port of Gdansk, Poznan in the west, and in Krakow itself.

The nationalist and deeply Catholic Lech Kaczynski, in office since 2005, was a highly divisive figure at home and abroad. His identical twin, former prime minister Jaroslaw, is leader of Poland's conservative opposition.

But thousands of people queued for a third day Thursday to pay their respects to Kaczynski and his wife Maria, whose bodies are lying in state at the presidential palace in Warsaw until the funeral.

[linecrew]

Anyone know Polish? Is this ANIMATION derived from onboard data?

It didn't mention that the information was from the CVR/FDR

It said that circled the airport three times to "become familiar with the topography".

On the approach they hit a radio station (antenna), and trees (depicted in the animation).

This could explain how a wingtip may have been the part which separated prior to where the rest of the aircraft impacted the ground.