Jazz & Thomas Cook = 6 757's

[mattedfred]

The only way to fix this is to have a single seniority list and a single pilot union. The JAZ pilots have tried and failed several times to merge lists with the AC pilots.

This would be the only way that a pilot's seniority could truly become portable.

Until then the JAZ MEC must legally represent the best interests of their members. I'm an ALPA pilot first, a Jazz pilot second and a pilot third.

If you want to be represented you have to sign up. Otherwise you are on your own.

[SaskStyle]

Sask, Now I'm beating my head against a brick f'n wall. You need some anti-depressents or some therapy. My wife once told me I had to stop reading the newspaper because my mood changed too drastically with all the depressing news out there. Lets face it, most printed news is bad. But for crying out loud, they're not fucking dead. Get over it and move on. You are sucking some of the joy out of this, it's not a funeral. Worst case some file for personal bankruptcy, maybe a divorce. Been there done that. I feel bad for you, because you clearly care too much and even though empathy is a great human trait, in this case you need to focus your energy on something productive. Trying to bring us down is not going to solve anything. I will keep celebrating and you sir can @#$! OFF!

Hey Sulako, thanks for the selective slap on the wrist.

This has been unedited for what.....at least a couple days.

For those that missed it,

I said "But the planes are not on my driveway a**h**le, they're on yours."

I apologize for swearing at fellow posters. My bad, you're right it's not nice.

[Sulako]

It's not selective moderating - we can't possibly read all the posts that are submitted each day on this forum, and it appears that this is a thread that the mods hadn't scrutinized until now. There was a complaint about yours, so I acted. Nobody complained about the other guy's post, but now that you pointed it out, I have removed the personal attack and let him/her know it's not acceptable behaviour. I have no opinion on the Jazz 757 matter, and I doubt any other mods do either. We try to keep it a level playing field as far as board rules go, and if you see a post that you feel breaks forum rules, then report it.

And now back to your thread...

[yycflyguy]

It's not selective moderating - we can't possibly read all the posts that are submitted each day on this forum, and it appears that this is a thread that the mods hadn't scrutinized until now. There was a complaint about yours, so I acted. Nobody complained about the other guy's post, but now that you pointed it out, I have removed the personal attack and let him/her know it's not acceptable behaviour. I have no opinion on the Jazz 757 matter, and I doubt any other mods do either. We try to keep it a level playing field as far as board rules go, and if you see a post that you feel breaks forum rules, then report it.

And now back to your thread...

Hey Sully, if that is truly the case, what happened to my post? Entirely deleted, had no personal attacks, yet it is gone. Not the first time either. Selective moderation whenever censorship is brought up methinks.

[Sulako]

It wasn't relevant to the post topic, and I addressed the poster's concerns, so I killed it. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

[mbav8r]

mbav8r wrote:
Sask, Now I'm beating my head against a brick f'n wall. You need some anti-depressents or some therapy. My wife once told me I had to stop reading the newspaper because my mood changed too drastically with all the depressing news out there. Lets face it, most printed news is bad. But for crying out loud, they're not fucking dead. Get over it and move on. You are sucking some of the joy out of this, it's not a funeral. Worst case some file for personal bankruptcy, maybe a divorce. Been there done that. I feel bad for you, because you clearly care too much and even though empathy is a great human trait, in this case you need to focus your energy on something productive. Trying to bring us down is not going to solve anything. I will keep celebrating and you sir can @#$! OFF!


Hey Sulako, thanks for the selective slap on the wrist.

This has been unedited for what.....at least a couple days.

For those that missed it,

I said "But the planes are not on my driveway a**h**le, they're on yours."

I apologize for swearing at fellow posters. My bad, you're right it's not nice.

There is a big difference in calling someone an "asshole" or "Vulture" and telling them to take a hike or Foxtrot oscar. I apologize for the swearing but I felt the only way I could express my frustration was with the F Bomb.

[yycflyguy]

It wasn't relevant to the post topic, and I addressed the poster's concerns, so I killed it. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

The gist of my deleted post was that SaskStyle has made a very good argument as to why this could possibly be bad for Canadian Aviation down the road. It is not about pilot vs pilot. It is not about company loyalties. It is about degradation for the entire industry. I don't suspect I many will publicly support this position as the glitter of the new metal is still fresh. I just hope people can understand the arguments that have been made that this is not necessarily a good thing for all... in fact, I few it as a good thing for a very small percentage of Canadian pilots.

Flame away.

[yycflyguy]

mbav8r wrote:
Sask, Now I'm beating my head against a brick f'n wall. You need some anti-depressents or some therapy. My wife once told me I had to stop reading the newspaper because my mood changed too drastically with all the depressing news out there. Lets face it, most printed news is bad. But for crying out loud, they're not fucking dead. Get over it and move on. You are sucking some of the joy out of this, it's not a funeral. Worst case some file for personal bankruptcy, maybe a divorce. Been there done that. I feel bad for you, because you clearly care too much and even though empathy is a great human trait, in this case you need to focus your energy on something productive. Trying to bring us down is not going to solve anything. I will keep celebrating and you sir can @#$! OFF!


Hey Sulako, thanks for the selective slap on the wrist.

This has been unedited for what.....at least a couple days.

For those that missed it,

I said "But the planes are not on my driveway a**h**le, they're on yours."

I apologize for swearing at fellow posters. My bad, you're right it's not nice.

There is a big difference in calling someone an "asshole" or "Vulture" and telling them to take a hike or Foxtrot oscar. I apologize for the swearing but I felt the only way I could express my frustration was with the F Bomb.

Yikes. Apologies that use the word "but" usually come off sounding a bit hollow.

[mattedfred]

i love a lively debate just as much as the next guy but one would expect that both parties would be able to ask questions and get an answer

one would also think they would be able to do so without being told to f**k off or being called an a**h*le

[mbav8r]

So here we are again, I siad I would ignore you, but you come out with such BS how can I. You are here saying that if the planes were in your driveway you would do what you could to make sure they're flying them. Bull, if you expect anyone on here to believe you would sit stationary at your company while guys off the street come in above you, Direct entry making more money than you. If you feel you truly believe what you say, then the only reason you can say it is, they're not in your driveway. You can say what you want, but the only way I would believe you, is if you were in the jazz private forum(employees only) saying the same thing, otherwise BULLS#@T

[mbav8r]

mbav8r wrote:
Sask, Now I'm beating my head against a brick f'n wall. You need some anti-depressents or some therapy. My wife once told me I had to stop reading the newspaper because my mood changed too drastically with all the depressing news out there. Lets face it, most printed news is bad. But for crying out loud, they're not fucking dead. Get over it and move on. You are sucking some of the joy out of this, it's not a funeral. Worst case some file for personal bankruptcy, maybe a divorce. Been there done that. I feel bad for you, because you clearly care too much and even though empathy is a great human trait, in this case you need to focus your energy on something productive. Trying to bring us down is not going to solve anything. I will keep celebrating and you sir can @#$! OFF!


Hey Sulako, thanks for the selective slap on the wrist.

This has been unedited for what.....at least a couple days.

For those that missed it,

I said "But the planes are not on my driveway a**h**le, they're on yours."

I apologize for swearing at fellow posters. My bad, you're right it's not nice.

There is a big difference in calling someone an "asshole" or "Vulture" and telling them to take a hike or Foxtrot oscar. I apologize for the swearing but I felt the only way I could express my frustration was with the F Bomb.

Yikes. Apologies that use the word "but" usually come off sounding a bit hollow.

You're quite right, I was only apologizing for using profane language not the fact I wanted Sask to take a hike

[mbav8r]

i love a lively debate just as much as the next guy but one would expect that both parties would be able to ask questions and get an answer

one would also think they would be able to do so without being told to f**k off or being called an a**h*le

Also quite right, I didn't count how many times Sask called Jazz pilots "vultures" or personally attacked our morals. There's only so many times a guy can be feel like he's being personally attacked, before he retaliates.

[mattedfred]

its called taking the bate

if you reply with logic and direct questions they quickly go away

[Plim Sole]

SaskStlye,

You're now getting boring you whining little child.
Yes, company A knew they were bidding for work that company B was shortly not going to be doing.
Why on earth should company A be obliged to employ people (not just pilots) from company B?

Its no different in any other industry. Pulp mill A bids for work that Pulb mill B was doing up and until it went bust. If company A needs more employees it can seek those people from anywhere it wants.

Jazz, at the moment, does not need to hire any pilots. It may in the future, but until then stopping sulking and man up. If Jazz hires towards the end of the year you have as much chance as anyone else. If you don't like our conditions then don't apply.

Jazz doesn't owe you anything just because you USED to drive a 757.
From what I have heard from you, we don't want you anyway.

I'd rather fly with a college grad than with someone with your attitude to life.

Shake your head, gather yourself together, think up plan B and put it into drive.

PS

[SaskStyle]

SaskStlye,

You're now getting boring you whining little child.
Yes, company A knew they were bidding for work that company B was shortly not going to be doing.
Why on earth should company A be obliged to employ people (not just pilots) from company B?

Its no different in any other industry. Pulp mill A bids for work that Pulb mill B was doing up and until it went bust. If company A needs more employees it can seek those people from anywhere it wants.

Jazz, at the moment, does not need to hire any pilots. It may in the future, but until then stopping sulking and man up. If Jazz hires towards the end of the year you have as much chance as anyone else. If you don't like our conditions then don't apply.

Jazz doesn't owe you anything just because you USED to drive a 757.
From what I have heard from you, we don't want you anyway.

I'd rather fly with a college grad than with someone with your attitude to life.

Shake your head, gather yourself together, think up plan B and put it into drive.

PS

I'm not at Sky, never was. Don't know anyone there. I'm not in the airlines. The good people that were there are probably doing exactly what you advised me to do.

I was just commenting on the situation, putting out another viewpoint.

I'll take my poor attitude, my childish whining, and suck it up.

Sorry for raining on the celebratory parade.

[TS]

I would hate to hear what he thinks about Canjet hiring Germans to fly over the winter becasue they say there are no qualified pilots in Canada!?

Sucks for the SSV guys, hope they all find work...and soon!

[Dark Helmet]

Sask,

Dude,you preaching to the choir!!!! You are putting way too much energy into this argument. Hate to tell you but this is completely futile and a waste of your time. Things are not going to change period. You are better off putting your energy and passion into something more constructive.

Seniorty is the way it works in today's ariline industry. It is no different at ACPA, WJPA, or any of the of the other ALPA pilot groups and even other independent pilot groups and associations.

Just after 9/11 C3 went bankrupt. There were pilots that gave up good jobs to go to C3, only to find themselves flying a light turboprop up north for a 703 ops only few months later. They stayed there until such time they went to WJ and AC to start BOTL there.

Skyward, a 703/704 outfit out of Manitoba ceased operations a few years back. Lots of good people that were working the ramp for a year there had to start over on the ramp at the bottom of the pecking order at other companies were they worked for another yea or morer before they started flying.

What happened to all the ZOOM pilots when they went under. They had to start at the bottom of other companies. Including SW who expanded as a result of their demise. Granted, some were lucky enough to start as DEC, but it was because SW needed captains at the time and not because SW pilots felt sorry for the ZOOM guys. Right place right time.

Hell, lets throw Jetsgo into the mix. Who took over Jetsgo flying when they went under? AC and WJ. Did they gave DOH to the Jetsgo folks. I will let you answer that.

I fell sorry for the SSV guys, unfortunetly they will not be the last pilot group who will have to go through this.

It sucks I know, we get it, we really do. As harsh as this may sound, it is what it is. Would be nice if we all smarten
up and form a single list accross the board but that is not realistic. People would argue that foreign airlines would then take our flying, blah blah blah etc.....

Heck, right now ACPA is trying to stop Jazz (separate company and they have no problems telling us that) from flying these 757s. They claim that we are violating their contract and bringing the industry down, yet they constantly complain that we are overpaid for the work that we do via this CPA that ALPA did not negotiate.

Even some airline mergers have been paintfull in the past.

All in all, we are wasting our time with this. For the SSV folks, go to WJ were the money is good in a short time. Or Porter where you can get a quick upgrade.

Sask, like I said, put your energy into something more constructive. For the Jazz guys, lets go to the Jazz private forum, or the ALPA forum and let Sask preach on his own if he chooses to do so. Lets discuss what is really important for the Jazz pilots. A career contract.

DH

[WetJet]

So I have been mulling this over for a while now and here is my 2 cents. I like status pay. We have it at Transat and it helps keep training costs down since guys don't jump to the 330 just like guys don't jump to the RJ (OK some do) at Jazz. It works when you are operating similar kinds of equipment and the salaries between types would be close anyways, like 310/330 or RJ/Dash.

The problem arises when there is a significant difference across the fleet. We'd like to add 737's to the mix at Transat but Canjet guys make a lot less than us to fly them so i'm not betting on seeing any 737s here soon. Status pay distorts the pay of the smaller aircraft to the point where it may be too out of whack to make it viable. What is to stop AC from saying GGN can operate Dashes for 60% of what Jazz can? Don't think for a second that JM would not LOVE to start a Dash operation at GGN. How about what CMA pays pilots on a 30+ seat Dornier 328? Probably about HALF of the seat cost of your status pay on the Dash. This is the situation we are faced with at Transat, somebody will fly the smaller type for less. Careful what you wish for boys and girls. Are you willing to sacrifice 65 Dash-8s for 6 757s? The 757s will come and go, hopefully the 757 guys will be paid something close to industry standard and a few guys will make a good pile of dough while they are there. Don't screw up your bread and butter by upping the status pay.

[yycflyguy]

Heck, right now ACPA is trying to stop Jazz (separate company and they have no problems telling us that) from flying these 757s.

Really? I am a part of ACPA and have not heard anything remotely close to what you are saying. Stop trying to make this a pilot vs pilot thing.

[mbav8r]

Really yycflyguy, are you lying or just haven't read your memo's. Out of respect for internal communications we have kept the contents of your reps memo's quiet. But if you're going to out right say that ACPA hasn't asked their legal department to look into whether or not we violated your CA, then I could post quotes from them or the entire message. Take your pick. Maybe you are trying not to make this Pilot vs Pilot, but some of your membership are.
Apparently, since the announcement there has been 16000 hits on this topic in your private forum and yet there is only, what about 3000 active pilots. One would infer this is a big deal to you guys. Bottom line, enough of you don't like it and therefore your union is preparing a legal fight.

[balfour]

....Or wildcat strike.

[Dark Helmet]

yycflyguy,

No disrespect intended, nor was I trying to make it a pilot to pilot thing. just stating the events as they happened.

Here is a quote from another thread on the AC forum about this topic

I would not wait for a legal opinion on what has just transpired but I would direct our legal team to start the counter-attack.
Injunction based on whatever makes the most noise comes to mind, even playing the safety card.
I would announce the ramping up of our industrial action committee(s).
I would take the lead in denouncing this deal, ahead of the Company if possible, just to force their hand so that they can back up publicly what they tell me privately, but with the courtesy of a heads up call:" Hi Calin, I am sorry you were caught off guard with this announcement. Here is the text of our press release that will hit the wire in an hour. Surely you will suppoprt us in our quest to protect the Company's viability".
A multi pronged approach would invove our Governmentr relations team, the Pres, the other unions, the media, the membership, etc...
I would not back down.

His 1st and only post on avcanada. Although he might very well be a troll. Having said that, I have also read both internal memos from ACPA to its menbership about taking legal action to see if this deal is in violation of your CA. There has been a response from ALPA confirming this as well.

[Finnigan]

....Or wildcat strike.

Over what?? Never mind, I would pay to see that show. A lot of people in the labour and transport business have been waiting for the ACPA to finally put a bullet in it's own head (the foot shots haven't done the job). An illegal strike would do it. Then maybe a representative organization that caters to the rational, rather than to the lunatic fringe , will prevail over there.

Let me know if tickets go on sale

[Sage]

The only way to fix this is to have a single seniority list and a single pilot union. The JAZ pilots have tried and failed several times to merge lists with the AC pilots.

This would be the only way that a pilot's seniority could truly become portable.

Until then the JAZ MEC must legally represent the best interests of their members. I'm an ALPA pilot first, a Jazz pilot second and a pilot third.

If you want to be represented you have to sign up. Otherwise you are on your own.

Regarding merging the seniority list, you might want to ask the Jazz MEC why global solutions failed in the first place then have a look at the minutes or audiorecordings during those meetings. Don't let them tell you that it was ACPA's fault. ACPA agreed to GS and had an agreement made up but your MEC president got too greedy. He wanted to grandfather a select few captains in, and the line was conveniently drawn just after his name on the list. He screwed the whole membership because he wanted to the ability to be captain immediately at Air Canada. This from a guys directly involved in GS for ACPA. He was very disappointed about the failure because he believed and wanted GS. Jazz MEC is not looking after you. This I know. They after looking after themselves and their AO buddies. Don't trust them. I did when I was there but they tried to screw us. While you are at it, ask them why they proposed a "B scale" for all new hires so they can get a raise for the Captains.

[rudder]

Regarding merging the seniority list, you might want to ask the Jazz MEC why global solutions failed in the first place then have a look at the minutes or audiorecordings during those meetings. Don't let them tell you that it was ACPA's fault. ACPA agreed to GS and had an agreement made up but your MEC president got too greedy. He wanted to grandfather a select few captains in, and the line was conveniently drawn just after his name on the list. He screwed the whole membership because he wanted to the ability to be captain immediately at Air Canada. This from a guys directly involved in GS for ACPA. He was very disappointed about the failure because he believed and wanted GS. Jazz MEC is not looking after you. This I know. They after looking after themselves and their AO buddies. Don't trust them. I did when I was there but they tried to screw us. While you are at it, ask them why they proposed a "B scale" for all new hires so they can get a raise for the Captains.

Congrats on the biggest pile of manure that has been posted in a while. But this is a string about Jazz and Thomas Cook. Perhaps you should start a new string called "Lies My Father Told Me".