Will work for free...

[Cat Driver]

Regardless of the specifics in this example, working for free in this country should NEVER happen.

But it does, so what does that say for the country?

Employers have a responsibility to pay people who do work for them, and as has been said above, employees have a responsibility to both themselves and their fellow pilots to receive adequate compensation for that work.

Any company who has anyone working for free is engaging in slavery.

The who are guilty of this should be in prison where they can be of use to Bubba.

[rightseatwonder]

how is it legal for anyone to work for free? i dont get it. isnt there a minimum wage in this country? regardless of whether soene offers to be a slave or not.
if anyone asks you to work for free... say no and write your mla or something.
Why dont we just make it known to the flying public, any company that lets anyone fly for free? or ramp for free, or dispatch for free?

[threepoint]

Any company who has anyone working for free is engaging in slavery.

The cocksuckers who are guilty of this should be in prison where they can be of use to Bubba.

On your first point, I disagree. Nobody's forcing the worker to work; if it's of their own volition, the slavery argument is deflated.

Your second point, as eloquent as it is, is directed to the wrong party. Ask yourself who's inflicting more long-term damage to the industry: the company owner willing to have staff work for them for no pay, or those pilots/engineers willing to work for free? I bet most of would agree where the problem lies...

[sky's the limit]

. Ask yourself who's inflicting more long-term damage to the industry: the company owner willing to have staff work for them for no pay, or those pilots/engineers willing to work for free? I bet most of would agree where the problem lies...

Well,

Imho, like most things the situation is more complex than it seems at first glance.

While I tend to agree that employees who are willing to work for little or no compensation hurt the industry, consider that many are in desperation when they do so, owing vast sums of money, and literally at their wits end. Not all the time, but I'd wager more often than not.

Employers on the other hand.... I can't seem to recall any company operating at a point where it becomes necessary to have workers who are not paid in order to stay alive and operating. It is much more an ethical choice I think for the company than the individual in many cases.

So, who's worse? Does it really matter? That it is happening at all is appalling, and yet this issue has persisted for decades. The real question is why?

stl

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Your second point, as eloquent as it is

Eloquent?

Why thank you threepoint, I have finally said something that pleases you.

I stand by my opinion that a lowballing company is pure scum when they take advantage of their employees. They are the root of the problem.

The pilots and mechanics who submit to being used are willing victims, but the companies are the root cause.

[Bullet Remington]

. Ask yourself who's inflicting more long-term damage to the industry: the company owner willing to have staff work for them for no pay, or those pilots/engineers willing to work for free? I bet most of would agree where the problem lies...

Employers on the other hand.... I can't seem to recall any company operating at a point where it becomes necessary to have workers who are not paid in order to stay alive and operating. It is much more an ethical choice I think for the company than the individual in many cases.

stl

Really? I've seen it many,many times. As for company / s operating with no-pay employees, they don't have A) employees, nor B) ethics.

Want to see it first hand go to the Olds airport! There's a company there that has been surving by doing exactly that! If you want to experience first hand , they are looking for people so have a go at it. oh, i should clarify. they're looking for people FROM the Eastern part of the country. Nobody from the West will have anything to do with them knowing how they operate!

[reality check]

As for company / s operating with no-pay employees, they don't have A) employees, nor B) ethics.

There's a company there that has been surving by doing exactly that!

You seem to be contradicting yourself.... how can they survive with no employees? So which is it?

I've yet to see a company that needed to have free employees as much as employees who needed to be working for free.

[yvanddivans]

As for company / s operating with no-pay employees, they don't have A) employees, nor B) ethics.

There's a company there that has been surving by doing exactly that!

You seem to be contradicting yourself.... how can they survive with no employees? So which is it?

I've yet to see a company that needed to have free employees as much as employees who needed to be working for free.

I'm guessing he's refering to "A) employees [to have to pay]" but I might be stupidly mistaken.

[Bullet Remington]

As for company / s operating with no-pay employees, they don't have A) employees, nor B) ethics.

There's a company there that has been surving by doing exactly that!

You seem to be contradicting yourself.... how can they survive with no employees? So which is it?

I've yet to see a company that needed to have free employees as much as employees who needed to be working for free.

Nope not contradicting myself at all. let's assume I own a business, you show up, Monday through friday, work in my business for my benefit and I don't pay you. You are NOT an employee now are you?

As for the second part of your reply, I encourage you to apply to the referenced company in Olds. The owner would love to see another sucker ....er candidate come in the door. IF he had to pay the people he 'hires" he'd be out of business. He's still there because he uses people, pays them a little at first, then stops paying and keeps promising to pay, but don't!

In that the people who works for his benefit believes that they will some how get paid, they keep working for him until they finally realize that he has no intention. When the "no pay worker starts confronting him, he changes the locks on the door and tells everybody that he feels will believe him, that he fired the worker. then he hangs on to the free workers equipment and tools until the ex=worker has enough money to file a civil suit against him.

I personally know two people that's been sucked in by this person. He'll keep doing it because there are folks that inherently believe what they are told by him and who want to be a DOM. Sad part is, it'll keep happening in this business for a long, long time to come!!

[sky's the limit]

As for the second part of your reply, I encourage you to apply to the referenced company in Olds. The owner would love to see another sucker ....er candidate come in the door. IF he had to pay the people he 'hires" he'd be out of business. He's still there because he uses people, pays them a little at first, then stops paying and keeps promising to pay, but don't!

In that the people who works for his benefit believes that they will some how get paid, they keep working for him until they finally realize that he has no intention. When the "no pay worker starts confronting him, he changes the locks on the door and tells everybody that he feels will believe him, that he fired the worker. then he hangs on to the free workers equipment and tools until the ex=worker has enough money to file a civil suit against him.

I personally know two people that's been sucked in by this person. He'll keep doing it because there are folks that inherently believe what they are told by him and who want to be a DOM. Sad part is, it'll keep happening in this business for a long, long time to come!!

If you are privy to this kind of information and can prove it, why are you not calling the Labour Board and TC instead of posting here and encouraging people to apply to be abused?

stl

[Bullet Remington]

. Ask yourself who's inflicting more long-term damage to the industry: the company owner willing to have staff work for them for no pay, or those pilots/engineers willing to work for free? I bet most of would agree where the problem lies...

.

While I tend to agree that employees who are willing to work for little or no compensation hurt the industry, consider that many are in desperation when they do so, owing vast sums of money, and literally at their wits end. Not all the time, but I'd wager more often than not.

Employers on the other hand.... I can't seem to recall any company operating at a point where it becomes necessary to have workers who are not paid in order to stay alive and operating. It is much more an ethical choice I think for the company than the individual in many cases.

So, who's worse? Does it really matter? That it is happening at all is appalling, and yet this issue has persisted for decades. The real question is why?

stl

Sky:

Transport can't do a freakin thing about this or any other operator that operates in this manner, AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT IN VIOLATION OF CARs.

As for the labout Board, they won't do anything either unless the people involved file a complaint then follow it up with the truckload of forms they require completion of.

AND, I was referring to your statement above as well as the statement of one other poster who stated that they can't and/or haven't seen this. If ya want to see it first hand, apply for the job. I was being sarcastic, I suppose.

And it was an attempt to dispell the statement:
I've yet to see a company that needed to have free employees as much as employees who needed to be working for free.

And here's another statement that I can't make any sense of: Maybe you can qualify this one for me as well:

While I tend to agree that employees who are willing to work for little or no compensation hurt the industry, consider that many are in desperation when they do so, owing vast sums of money, and literally at their wits end. Not all the time, but I'd wager more often than not

So, just how does a driver coming out of school, owing in the vicinity of $60K in tution, plus vechicle payments and probably credit card payments, benefit form working for free??

[sky's the limit]

Suit yourself.


You obviously have far more contact with the unsavory operators around than I do. I choose to work for good employers, and have for years. There's no reason on Earth why I would give up what I have to "apply" where you suggest....

We all run across the bad outfits, but I can honestly say in my whole career I've never seen a company that needs a free employee as bad as the other way around.

If you have to ask

"just how does a driver coming out of school, owing in the vicinity of $60K in tution, plus vechicle payments and probably credit card payments, benefit form working for free??"

It shows me you haven't ever been there, nor have you paid much attention to those who have. Regardless, I'll spell it out.

If a young person comes in and works for free and somehow impresses the Boss, they may get hired to a paid position, and possibly even a flying position later on... It's really that simple. Or so goes the theory....

stl

[iflyforpie]

I was lucky to hit the industry just right with both AME and fixed-wing commercial flying. A job a week out of Tech School as an AME, and was already working for the company that gave me my first flying gig.

However, my first AME job I was laid off two months short of my license (post 9/11 crap), and my experience actually seemed like a liability. I wanted to go into rotary, but all the companies I talked to either wanted licensed/RW endorsed guys or wet behind the ears apprenti who had no evil fixed wing habits yet... Three months I was off until I accepted a lower wage and started at square one at a small flight school who was opening an AMO.

As desperate as I was (just married and trying to start a life as I was laid off) I never worked for free and actually found other work to tide me over while waiting for better times. The low paying flight school managed to increase my wages substantially and was one of the few companies who cut me bonus checks just for doing a good job.

Nothing is for free, everything costs. If you work for free, it will actually wind up costing you something else. Your respect, your morals, and even your life if you are uninsured as a worker...

[square]

Yeah I can see it making sense to people who can't find F all for a job in this industry.. at least they'd be getting somewhere closer to making a decent living in this industry right? And they could stay at home with mom n dad like they did when they were in school so OK I could do that for another year.

What's horrible is the operators taking advantage of them.. and not just of them but people paying pilots 18k/yr just because they can, when obviously they can afford to pay them more.. there are private lodges paying their pilots 10k/month over the summer no problem, they'd be shelling out more just to get a charter company to do it.. except the pilots at some places don't see a fraction of what they make for their company.

[GilletteNorth]

Lobby the government to place a limit on the amount of pilot licenses granted each year based on expected need for flying jobs within Canada. No foreign licenses allowed or only allowed if included in the annual license grant. First come, first served. Set the bar for the license standard higher so there won't be shortcuts in training and as an added bonus improving the pilot skill levels.

The problem with pilots willing to fly/work for free is the number of pilots available outweighs the number of jobs. Anyone who wants to can get a licence thereby increasing the potential available pool. To reduce the potential pool to a level that employers won't be able to expect forms of free labor you must restrict the licenses. Enforce the mandatory minimum wage, regardless if a pilot decides he 'wants' to offer his services for free. It IS a licensed profession after all. Not everyone gets to live the dream.

[Indanao]

In my humble opinion with your Multi IFR, go here http://www.transwestair.com/ start on the dock, and wait for a flying job. Maybe a C-185. Making sure you let them know your goal is copter. Good luck....

[Ecco]

If there's an operator reading that....then look good...I'LL WORK FOR FREE IF YOU LET ME FLY.
AND YOU WONT REGRET IT.
PM me,
fast responce.

P.S I can afford couple 's of Dingo's.

[47guy's]

If there's an operator reading that....then look good...I'LL WORK FOR FREE IF YOU LET ME FLY.
AND YOU WONT REGRET IT.
PM me,
fast responce.

P.S I can afford couple 's of Dingo's.

J'espere que tes pas serieux Eric!!!!

[Ecco]

Bein non! Bein non!!!
Un peut d'huile sul feu vas peut etre faire exploser leux estie chaudron...pis comme sa. ont en entendre pu parler.