Short staff in YVR this afternoon.

[CCR]

How does this happen? How does a staff shortage occur to the point where we have to file below FL260 versus our normal 400 because High Level doesn't have enough people to cover it. Seriously, poor customer service guys and gals. Can our company send the bill to Nav Canada and maybe to those who booked off this weekend?

[cyeg66]

Let's just call it even for all the RNPs I give you guys rather than having you to fly the full STAR, shall we? This was an anomaly. Let it go.


edit: I only sent out a couple 737s and a CRJ all going to YLW at 240. Everyone else was 'bidness' as usual...

[Braun]

God forbid we get short staffed once in a while! I don't see anyone posting about when they get direct stuff or all their requests granted though...odd

[CCR]

If it was short staffing just once in awhile, I could see your point. It's not. We quite frequently hear this as the reason behind holds, slow downs etc. What ever the reason, Nav Canada seems to rely upon this way too much. Airlines are the consumer here and you guys are the service providers. If Nav Canada was held accountable on a financial basis for slow downs etc, with funds going back to the industry do you think these things would still happen? Not sure.

Yes, RNP short tracks are great for our cost savings!! They also work for you as well by clearing airspace so that you can move more traffic! In addition, they are good for the environment by reducing carbon emissions. So, do I need to thank you for the clearance to do one? No, not really. Should I also thank you for clearing me the ILS and not the NDB? Ahhh, no.

Yes, thanks to all the good controllers out there who do there job safely and efficiently. I always thank a controller when the job is well done. It frustrates me though when money is wasted because a company can't staff itself properly. Would you be happy if you bought a ticket on an airline, you arrive at the airport and are told that your flight was very late/cancelled because there was no crew to operate it because of book off's? Hmmm, most people would be looking for a refund including, I'm sure, yourself.


Enjoy the rest of a beautiful day guys...I know I will!

[Braun]

I understand what you are saying. So you are saying you are only miscontent with the service provided due to short staffing? If so, here is not where you will get answers. Management doesn't post here, controllers do and oddly enough we are the last ones that have control over staffing. Your calling them and complaining directly will be much more productive than controllers complaining about it.

[2R]

Journalists sometime frequent this site fishing for stuff that the national enquirer will not print.

Expect to see a rabid headline inn the supermarket trashies along the lines of "Aliens abducted the staff at ATC for upgrade training and PROBING creates a posting on the internet"

or you might find it written between the other jems on the back of the crapper door

[CCR]

Hi Braun,

absolutely posting on a forum doesn't drive corporate change. It's a nice place to vent though Different companies (different employee groups for that matter) have different corporate cultures, some good and some not so much! I have worked at other companies where it was the "culture" to use up sick days whether sick or not and book off rates would always go up on weekends especially long ones. Maybe those people were not aware how their personal decision affected others. Unfortunately, some of those people don't care. I'm sure some of your co-workers book off because they are truly sick while a select few because it's a weekend or a nice day. Do they fully appreciate the fact that their customers are affected? Hopefully this rant of mine will stick in your mind for a while and the next time you hear one of your fellow controllers talk about the booking off to enjoy the nice weather you'll remind them that their selfish decision has a cost!

[Old Dog Flying]

I've had another controller sitting behind me arranging a Superbowl Party for the next day and sure enough, I worked the shift short handed. I've also closed the tower mid afternoon because the same guy was "sick" requiring large doses of salt air while crewing in a race. I've also been told by other controllers to reduce my acceptance rate because "I was making them look bad!".

And just try getting a reasonably safe altitude VFR across the Straits on a weekend due to airspace restrictions...that damned weekend flu strikes again. But it is in the contract sez he! Right! ManOps used to have a phrase about "safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic"..is it still there?

Is it any wonder that the customers are pissed by poor service?

[cyeg66]

Yes, thanks to all the good controllers out there who do there job safely and efficiently. I always thank a controller when the job is well done.

You're welcome (a little presumptuous on my part, perhaps). I always thank pilots when I think they did a good job, as well i.e. helping me out a bit when I'm in a jam.

Enjoy the rest of a beautiful day guys...I know I will!

I would've but I was stuck inside a brick building with a plethora of antennae on the roof talking to pesky airplanes...

[ywg-atc]

Where do I send my bill to for a flight that was 3 hours delayed because there was no crew? Why would an airline produce a schedule that it can't live up to?

[CCR]

And why would Nav Canada offer a service to the airlines it could not live up to? And yet it does.

[Braun]

And why would Nav Canada offer a service to the airlines it could not live up to? And yet it does.

How often do we not live up to our service?? Honestly? It's way easier to remember the few times stuff isn't right than when it is.

[ywg-atc]

I find it absolutely hilarious that an airline person is going to call someone out on customer service issues. I'm pretty sure the passengers on your plane would rather go at FL240 and be safe (and that's the service that we provide) then not at all. I'll remember this when below FL240 is the only smooth air this summer.

[CCR]

I'm not sure Braun, I don't have the hard data. Someone does. If there wasn't a problem then no one would be talking about it. Yet, it is a common theme when pilots that I know, from different companies, discuss ATC issues. Delays due to staff shortages. Common enough I would think. We hold ourselves accountable to our guests (customers) all the time. Remember the winter of 08-09? We paid out $2.5 million dollars due to delays that were beyond our control. We did it because it was the right thing to do. We also provide flight travel credits when something does happen that is a result of our own issues. Why? It's the right thing to do. But, as you mentioned, Nav Canada being held fiscally responsible is an issue dealt with by the higher ups. From an employee to another one, what do you do to avoid unnecessary book-offs? Do you take "mental-health" days off on nice sunny weekends? Probably not but there those who do. Do you hold them accountable and provide peer pressure or do you enable the practice by not saying anything?

If only three airplanes were affected, mine included, by the staff shortage in YVR high level, then what the heck? The person working couldn't take three more airplanes? Saturday afternoon? Can anyone offer insight into why a restriction would be put in place and then only three aircraft are affected?

[CCR]

YWG...you find it hilarious because you've never thought of yourself as offering a service to a paying customer. But that's what you do. For the good or bad, Nav Canada is the monopoly offering a service for a fee to a paying customer. The paying customer is not, directly anyway, our customer. It's the airlines, who pay the majority, and GA and Biz. Maybe that's hard for you to grasp but it is the reality. So when you book off for that sunny day or maybe do work slow downs because its contract time it only reinforces the frustration that myself and other pilots have about you and your organization. Maybe it's been a while since you flew on an airline but Customer Service is my number one priority. That means I offer them a safe and efficient on time flight to their destination. It also means I cost control and think about ways to keep their costs down too. I know, hard to fathom but true. If you think it's just me and my company, I think you'd be surprised. My friends over at AC also think the same way. They have to in a competitive environment.

You'll remember this when 240 is the only smooth air? Not sure what you mean by that? Care to explain?

Have a great day guys/gals. It's another beauty of a day!

[ywg-atc]

Was there only 3 aircraft involved? Or did the previous poster say that "he" only had 3 and all landed in YLW? Let's re-read the post. That doesn't mean only 3 aircraft were affected by flow restrictions. Saturday has nothing to do with being busy or slow, that's just a stupid comment and you know it. As someone who also flys a lot (one of your customers, and I've been on the receiving end of the fine customer service you go on about, sarcasm intended), very few flights are actually on time, and I can say I have never received any vouchers, refunds, etc. At best I get the canned apology from a gate person. How many times have I been a passenger and heard "due to air traffic control delays..." then call work and been told there are no delays, it's airline BS that most passengers can't research and won't hold you accountable for unrealistic schedules.

[CCR]

YWG....wasn't trying to make a stupid comment, so I guess I'm just stupid Have a good day providing a service to a customer er...I mean providing Air Traffic Controlling!!

[ywg-atc]

CCR: Looked over my posts and maybe I took things a little too personally. I mean no offense to you, I just don't like it when pilots assume that staffing shortage = controllers screwing around. A good day to you as well.

[cyeg66]

Thing is CCR, you need to realize that there are just as many controllers that work their tails off than those that don't care to. I will agree with you that some people may abuse sick leave a little, but if they're a conscientious individual, they wouldn't do it when there's a possibility of screwing over their coworkers or airlines. I include "coworkers" because they often bear the brunt of being short staffed i.e. sit and work for 4+ hours straight without a noggin-clearing break (like I once did in YUL centre). Again, this was an anomaly and I don't consider this the norm.

I see you're based in YYC. Perhaps you're just tired from all the times you're being held up, slowed, flowed, vectored all to hell "for sequencing with traffic landing on the X'ing runway", or because we're inexplicably down to a single runway (not a terminal staffing issue, I'll have you know...........). All this to say is that your "woe-is-me" mentality and "NavCan sucks" rants appear quite rampant among the pilot community. Let's just say hypothetically, that if you were a controller, your tune would naturally be quite different. It may even be quite anti-airmen (like the bull some jaded controllers like to spew) but in the end you gotta hold some respect for the other side. I stay out of the cockpit, and pilots gotta stay away from thinking "Geez, if I were in charge, I'd be running a more efficient operation. I mean, what gives?" It's a thankless job that the general population has little idea about other than what they hear over the loudspeaker aboard the NG squawking the patented b.s. message "delays due to ATC" when maybe the little thing called a blizzard or thunderstorm at destination may be more responsible for that.

Just keep smiling, be happy you live in this beautiful country and have a great job, and keep thanking controllers when they do do a good job. After all, that poor bastard may have been sitting for 4 hours just to avoid "restricting" air traffic. Another nice day, best enjoy it.

[Braun]

+1 to cyeg66 posts. That is kind of what I wanted to say but I wasn't sure about how to say without sounding pitiful! Anyways last summer where I worked there where about 5-6 days in the summer where we ended up only 2 people for a whole shift for two positions. This wasn't due to people calling sick. We just didn't have the staff to stay within the legal parameters to staff everyone was doing maximum overtime and there is a limit to how much one can work. So we ended work 8 1/2 hours straight on the board, which believe it or not, is quite tiresome. We offered the same level of service as we normally would to ensure everyone got what they needed (except IFR trainers). Please not controllers who work their ass do not get paid more, get more credit, more attention or praise. Most controllers do their best to offer the best service as they can within their sandbox. We aren't just lazy mo'foers sitting down looking at a screen talking shit while you level off at 240... It is the sort of thing that I think we need to step back and say hey, these guys have a job to do so I will do mine and let them do theirs and that is the only true way to run things efficiently. I agree maybe sometimes things could be done a bit differently but things happen fast in ATC and not every decision can always be the best most efficient one. Sometimes we might make you burn a bit of fuel more or you might have a delay but we also help save fuel as often as possible and get you to where you are going as fast as you can!

[invertedattitude]

It's funny how pilots/airlines think we WANT to run short.

You can't just grow a controller out of the ground, it takes up to 2 years to fully qualify an IFR controller, if you want to blame the company, then tell them to start listening to the control group about how to fix the application procress!

[cyeg66]

It's funny how pilots/airlines think we WANT to run short.

You can't just grow a controller out of the ground, it takes up to 2 years to fully qualify an IFR controller, if you want to blame the company, then tell them to start listening to the control group about how to fix the application procress!

I also don't really want to mention CAATS and how much $$$ it has cost this company but it is necessary. In years past, it has been in the form of direct costs (development, implementation, etc) and it has now reared its ugly head (for far too long) in being responsible for delaying, canceling training (the sim is a mess). Hopefully, once this piece of shite system is fully in place, the company can seriously trim its budget in that domain and actually start saving money, and yes, returning it to its grateful customers....

[CCR]

CYEG66, great post! My original post was a rant for sure. I love when the system works and both sides work together as a team. I do my part by flying my aircraft safely and efficiently and by following your instructions as I know I'm doing my part to help your job go more smoothly. As I've pointed out, my job is not only flying the airplane but to consider commercial aspect i.e. costs, as well. While myself and my fellow pilots do not always have the "big picture", hearing the words "Delays due to staffing shortages" begins to build the perception that our team mates are not holding up their end of the bargain. I've talked to one of your supervisors last summer and from his perspective he understood that his company is offering a fee based service to a customer. Do front line controllers get that though? Does the company get that? By his admission, Nav Canada knows the airlines scheduling requirements well in advance and that helps the plan manpower ahead of time. "Day of" situations like you mention can greatly alter that requirement. Weather issues across the country are known and that's not really what we are talking about here. If the company knows that on a Saturday there will be XYZ number of scheduled flights into a sector and probably have a statistical number to use to consider flights above that, the schedulers schedule in a number of controllers. So how do we get to a short staff position? Legitimate sickness for sure. So how do they compensate? Call out for OT? But what happens when people still don't want to come in or there are people who call in for those "sunny day" book offs? What does a company do? Maybe Nav Canada needs a Reserve list You know, waiting by the phone all day to come in!!


So back to someone else's post...."It was a one off, get it over it"..Well, it's not really a one off. The collective pilot group in this country see's it all the time otherwise the perception would not be there. My impression is that it happens more from YWG west than it does in the east but that is once again pure conjecture. The point is, Nav Canada needs to as you say "listen to the controller group" and properly hire, train and of course pay new controllers and the controller group needs to put pressure on those who do book off for no reason to stop doing it. However one looks at it, it is increasingly difficult for airlines to find profits in today's aviation world. There are certain things Nav Can can control, ie excessive book of rates, proper staffing levels which lead to flight delays and there are things you can't control IE bad weather causing back ups. Both cost the airlines $$$ which in turn....costs me money!

[invertedattitude]

One final note, if it costs the airlines money, and the pilots, rest assured come contract time it costs the controllers money as well.

[Mohun]

I believe the controllers just got a 50% pay out of their sick leave bank at retirement.That may help with attendance/staffing.