WHY do pilots land gear up?

[Cat Driver]

It's one of the reasons I hire more based on personality rather than hours in the log book.

I have lost track of all the pilots I have hired over the years, but one thing I never did was use their personal log book part of my decision to hire them.

In fact I seldom even glanced at their log books.

[AEROBAT]

I wonder how many gear up landings have been prevented by the paranoia created here on Avcanada.

I think if our bitchin and complaining prevents one occurrence it will be worth all the hurt feelings out there.

I can't tell you the number of hate pm's I've got since this discussion got in full swing. Far more than pm's of support strangely enough which should be a concern of itself.

I don't have near the experience of Cat, Doc or Snoopy but those three I've learned over the years are normally pretty much bang on the mark when it comes to issues of safety and general piloting techniques. I think the industry could really learn a lot from listening to these three. I'm coming from the point of view of an operator so I can understand those spearheading safety disregarding my opinion thinking I am only interested in the almighty dollar. These three however to my knowledge are not motivated by any of these things.

Anyway I'll continue taking their message to heart and hopefully a few others will as well.

It is not only aviation that suffers under the rationalization of incompetance. Every industry has it. After following the thread under stall recoverey in Avcanada I realized flying is becoming as dumbed down as you can get.

[GoinNowhereFast]

I think if our bitchin and complaining prevents one occurrence it will be worth all the hurt feelings out there.

I can't believe that people get their feelings hurt by the bickering. Personally, I am afraid of landing with the gear in the wrong place and all this bitchin just reinforces my "healthy fear".

[Thanks Cat, "healthy fear" works better than "paranoia"]

[iflyforpie]

Rather than healthy fear, how about norms?

Norms is one of those 'dirty dozen' human factors, but healthy norms can be a good thing. Doing a gear check on final, every time, regardless of SOPs or other situation would probably prevent most of these from happening (perhaps the odd time someone might forget to do the regular and the final check). If you have two pilots doing this, the chances of landing gear up are almost negligible.

You don't need to say anything, you don't need to touch anything. Just look at the handle, the lights, and the mirrors as they apply before you touch the land or water.

Where am I landing and where is my gear?

The singular best piece of advise given yet...

[Cat Driver]

Yes paranoia is a disorder, healthy fear is beneficial.

One needs only ask would I rather fly with a pilot with a mental disorder or one with healthy fear?

[Cat Driver]

Actually iflyforpie it is where am I " landing " and where is my gear.

The reason I use that as my final decision to land is I fly so many different types of aircraft that I can not trust any other final check when it comes to where the wheels are..

[iflyforpie]

Actually iflyforpie it is where am I " landing " and where is my gear.

The reason I use that as my final decision to land is I fly so many different types of aircraft that I can not trust any other final check when it comes to where the wheels are..

Fixed.

[Carrier]

It seems like jet jockeys also do wheels up landings. Somebody who has got to the jet level ought to be very familiar with retractable gear.

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flyin ... ridge.html

[RatherBeFlying]

I started gliders in the Blanik LT-13 which comes with flaps and retractable gear. The idea behind that was that this was the first machine Soviet Block student pilots would fly in before some would eventually move into jets. It's also capable of limited aerobatics.

We regularly raised the gear at a couple hundred feet and put it down entering downwind.

Every few weeks somebody would land gear up and have to pay for a case of beer. We would raise the tail to put the glider on the nose skid, put the gear down and the next guy would fly it. It was a cheap lesson for the pilot and I do not remember anybody who did it twice.

In my current club the gear is left down, but on those somewhat annual occasions when I'm solo in a Blanik I raise the gear. The newer model Blanik makes it more interesting because the gear pushrod runs the opposite direction to raise and lower the gear; so, one looks carefully at the placards.

The current doctrine for retractable gliders is to raise the gear after release because many CG tow hooks come down with the gear and bad things can happen when the gear is raised with the tow rope still attached.

So when it's time to lower the gear, it's a very good idea to check the placards to make sure that you are actually lowering the gear instead of raising it.

[lionheart27]

Ok So I've read 3 pages of notes.

I think knowledge is power and the application of using it is etched in our memory, but to er-er is human!
Checklists have always been a part of my training and requirements in any airline("That's a pretty big gamble with a 30 million dollar plane Lieutenant")Have to add a factor to calculate by today's standards $. Hey we don't have the engineer(aka S.O.) much anymore but one flies the plane and one does the calls and checklists right?
On single pilot most aircraft are simpler to fly, hence single pilot, but a checklist is key. You run them in your head anyway so why not be thorough. Did your DFTE look the other way when you did your landing checks? I heard a good recommendation to fly a Constant speed, Retractable single before doing your twin as a prelude to mastering your checks and recoveries. Good Advice in my book.
We get so caught up in a Go-Around or an Engine Failure checks that we miss something. Hence belly up landings. I'd say its a good practice to do soft fields(landings) as a prelude to a nose gear failure, the most common. Simulator training should have this too.
Acronyms are always good. I like using those alot. Everyone probably knows HASSEL but not
MRCGHHALL. I personally like his one my instructor gave. ARROWJILI (she was a hot sexy mama)
WE should all know ANC.
So at least have the Acronyms down so if you forget the acronym will help you remember.

As for instructors some are good because they've been taught good. Bad habits stick to people like glue. Go to schools, meet the instructors, especially the CFI. Read up on them. Any accidents, air reg discrepancies , airworthiness issues, conditions of aircraft, shifty books, age and hours of the instructors,types of a/c, etc. They should respect this as their looking you up ad down too. What was funny at one place is the CFI/ Owner was wearing farm clothes and the instructors were in shirt and tie. Do the CFI and instructors talk the same lingity(Dr. Evil) and don't talking "sales".
As for Seneca and the 5kt crosswind, I'm sure that's for green pilots that have not mastered crosswind landings yet. You can still practice the technique. I remember my first crosswind landing which is when I learned to trust my instincts and training. I had only 12hrs, was practicing T/O's and Lndgs when the controller said lets go to XX runway. X-wind lndg (12kts) I set up in my circuit and increased 5kts on final (65kts) and went into a sideslip, flared too early and found myself wheelbarrowing. Fun Huh! Instincts told me to correct rudder and flare again abruptly. I landed safe almost @#$% my pants. Then as I'm taxing off I hear an CFI say, that's about all for today gentleman. Lucky for me I was flying a fixed gear C-152.

[Brown Bear]

Lets see now, the post above yours was dated Feb 4th, and yours April 11th. Nice to have your learned opinion on a subject you needed two months to read.

[YOWza]

One of the greatest differences between US and Canada in the flight training realm, is that in order to obtain a Commercial cert, you need a minimum of 10 hours of complex time. This is exactly what what I believe Hedley is getting at.

I wish they would implement that up here. I found it very easy to transition to multi after doing an FAA CPL. Something like an Arrow or a Cardinal RG(here come the tomatoes!) would be great to bridge the gap as it provides the platform to deal with the extra responsibility that comes with flying a complex plane. They're solid IFR trainers as well.

[Invertago]

I wish they would implement that up here. I found it very easy to transition to multi after doing an FAA CPL. Something like an Arrow or a Cardinal RG(here come the tomatoes!) would be great to bridge the gap as it provides the platform to deal with the extra responsibility that comes with flying a complex plane. They're solid IFR trainers as well.[/quote]


Since this thread is alive again... an Arrow or Cardinal would be great, except it is all about $. TC does not specify any requirement for the above aircraft in training, therefore students won't pay the extra for training, therefore flight schools won't make a buck using the above aircraft which is why in Canada if it isn't labeled C172, most GA pilots are afraid to fly it.

[lionheart27]

Lets see now, the post above yours was dated Feb 4th, and yours April 11th. Nice to have your learned opinion on a subject you needed two months to read.

I take it Brown Bear has welcomed me to the forum in his sarcastic way! Thank you!
I just wanted to be held.

I wish they would implement that up here. I found it very easy to transition to multi after doing an FAA CPL. Something like an Arrow or a Cardinal RG(here come the tomatoes!) would be great to bridge the gap as it provides the platform to deal with the extra responsibility that comes with flying a complex plane. They're solid IFR trainers as well.

Since this thread is alive again... an Arrow or Cardinal would be great, except it is all about $. TC does not specify any requirement for the above aircraft in training, therefore students won't pay the extra for training, therefore flight schools won't make a buck using the above aircraft which is why in Canada if it isn't labeled C172, most GA pilots are afraid to fly it.[/quote]

Shame why school don't adopt this as an option and students take advantage of it. Yes its about dollars, but don't employers see that as an advantage to someone who says "I'm a pilot, I have my CPL". A see what your saying from a school's point of view when a retractable means more maintenance issues. I think it stems from what the goals of the student are. Are you GA or Commercial? If your going for your CPL this seems like a given and since your going to amass PIC time to get your 200(100) why not. Maybe as a prelude to your MIFR. Most schools here in Canada would have the 172RG and the tomatoes would make a sporty pin stripe down the side!

[lionheart27]

Reason to have instruction improved!

[peakbagger]

I just started reading an excellent book called "Deep Survival" by Gonzalez (sp?)
It goes into the emotional and physiological battle each of us go through when faced with stress and fear on any level and has some very interesting ways to look at what we do in the airplane. I highly recommend it! It is done with case studies aswell which involve pilots falling victim to the black hole and get there itis.
Check it out! It has already made me rethink the way I approach those difficult situations.

[Invertago]

And how do you want instruction to improve? Do you need a reminder to put your pants on before your shoes? Maybe transport should insist flight schools put a "Gear down" check on all C150 check lists? Then make it a flight test item as well.

Don't blame your PPL instructor if you forget to lower the gear 5 years later in your career, it is a personal 'oopsies'


Nifty pics btw

[Dust Devil]

I fail to understand how "complex" instruction would help when most of the guys doing this stuff have far more than 10 hours in the aircraft they are bellying in. 10 hours in a 172RG or an Arrow isn't going to do squat.

[Invertago]

First pic reminded me of this one lol the way the guy is walking while noticing his pic being taken. I blame big foot!

[polar one]

I have had a little time lately, to give this whole issue some thinking. It used to be, that on simple aircraft we caried an "aide memoir"..not a checklist per se...and we used the "try my finger for size charlie" checklist.
But that does not apply to more complex aircraft, particularily two crew..where the pilots ae relying on one another to complete certain items.
Also, I have witnessed many times, single pilots simply miss items (such as insurring there is no fuel flow and there is oil press when starting a trubine)..items that could be costly if nothing else.

I agree that on a very basic plane, a written checklist should not be referred to. But catagorical statements like no one should a checklist when flying single pilot..not sure I agree with that..both panic and complecancy are the enemies here.

But the original issue is if there is a better way to teach/train... would be nice to see a summay from some of the intructor types a why they do what they do and why they feel it i better that other ways.

[lionheart27]

First pic reminded me of this one lol the way the guy is walking while noticing his pic being taken. I blame big foot!

I'm sorry but RMAOL!
That's just too funny that the pic is so similar. Even the arm movements. Wow!
Maybe a good way to remember gear down. Call it "the Bigfoot comes down'

I think we're getting instructing mixed up with landing procedure on the defensive end here.
But better instructing gives better pilot technique but the PIC still calls the ball.
I'll tell ya I don't want to be the one who explains to the CP or CFI that a belly up landing just occurred if it was unavoidable.
We go through mental if not physical checklists for everything anyway. You don't tell passengers oops I forgot right. We're talking about single piloting here so it comes down to a mental checklist.
I was taught to acknowledge gear whether your flying a C-150 or retractable twin. It should just be a standard practice. I think we get so caught up and used to flying fixed fear it becomes invisible until we get to a retractable and its forgotten.

[yycflyguy]

RMAOL

That's a new one for me.

[iflyforpie]

I was taught to acknowledge gear whether your flying a C-150 or retractable twin. It should just be a standard practice. I think we get so caught up and used to flying fixed fear it becomes invisible until we get to a retractable and its forgotten.

It's nice having planes where you can look out the window at the gear. I remember one flight where I selected gear down and saw the mains hang up. Reduced speed, recycled the gear, and got a safe indication. On every plane I can, I have a physical look at the wheels before landing.

The great thing about this is there is no need for a bs checklist or imaginary switch on fixed gear, just look out the window. The trouble is on most low-wing singles, there is no way to see the gear (twins and aircraft with tip tanks will have a place for a mirror).

I'm a big fan of having a wing mirror on a plane. Except for TC wanting 10 lbs of paperwork and thousands of dollars for an STC; installing a convex mirror on the wing of pretty much any plane would be a couple hour's work with some rivnuts, screws, high gauge sheet metal, and a convex mirror from Cambodian Tire rounding out the materials.

With a mirror, you can:
-See the gear is down.
-See the gear is up.
-See a damaged tire.
-See an oil leak or engine fire.
-See the prop(s) is really 'clear' before starting.
-See there are no chocks under the tires.
-See that baggage/pod doors are closed.

If every plane had a mirror (or visible gear) and every pilot was taught from day one to look out the window, I think it would be a long way to preventing these...

My $0.05.

[cyxe]

RMAOL

That's a new one for me.

I think I figured it out:

Rolling My Ass Out Loud

[yycflyguy]

RMAOL

That's a new one for me.

I think I figured it out:

Rolling My Ass Out Loud

I guess that's what you get after a night of suicide chicken wings and 4 pints of draught beer?