Weight and Balance

[tkdowell]

With regards to weigth and balance, it is my naive understanding that:

1) It is unecessary for a pilot to bring on board a calculated weight and balane for that particular flight, but must have made considerations to ensure that he/she is operating the aircraft within the limitations bounded in the flight manual, with the exception of SOPs stipulating such.

2) It is required for the most recently ammended weight and balance for the aircraft as weighed by an AME to be on board the A/C.

If I a mistaken, please correct. I have scoured the CARs and have not found a good reference to summarize this.

[iflyforpie]

It is required for the aircraft weight and balance (empty weight and moment) and equipment list to be aboard the aircraft.

It is required that the pilot has ensured the aircraft has been loaded within the weight and balance envelope and is able to prove so during a ramp inspection should the situation arise.

So no, you don't need to bring your calculations with you, but it might be a good idea if you are close to limits and don't do math well under pressure.

[tkdowell]

It is required for the aircraft weight and balance (empty weight and moment) and equipment list to be aboard the aircraft.

Thanks for remarks. Do you know where I could find the source for this?

[Hedley]

I don't know of any specific CAR which states that you must carry a current W&B on board the aircraft. I do know that Transport likes it written into the Journey Log these days.

I think the relevant CAR might be: 605.03(1)(b):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#605_03

which states:

605.03 (1) No person shall operate an aircraft in flight unless

(a) a flight authority is in effect in respect of the aircraft;

(b) the aircraft is operated in accordance with the conditions set out in the flight authority

Now for the grey area. Clearly your W&B must be legal to comply with the flight authority - we all agree on that.

Now, is it your responsibility to prove to the Enforcement Inspector on the spot, when you are ramped, that you are complying with the above reg wrt W&B? I personally don't think so.

If the ramping Inspector believes your W&B is in contravention of the above CAR, they can lay a charge with respect to the above, and you can prove him wrong at the tribunal by bringing a calculated W&B. End of story.

There are all sorts of grey areas like this. For example, we as pilots are required by CARs to be current wrt 5 year and 2 year and pax carrying. Do you carry your logbooks with you? I sure don't. Could you prove during a ramp check that you were legal wrt 5 year / 2 year / pax carrying? Probably not. I sure couldn't, because I don't fly with a logbook.

Am I in violation because I can't prove on the spot that I am current?

I don't think so. The CARs don't require me to prove during a ramp check that I am in compliance with all the CARs - only that I must comply with them.

[iflyforpie]

I think you are right Hed. I went through the regs regarding W + B and I couldn't find a requirement to carry it in the aircraft, just that it must be current.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm going to take a stab at this and say that the following also probably apply:

703.37 (1) No person shall operate an aircraft unless, during every phase of the flight, the load restrictions, weight and centre of gravity of the aircraft conform to the limitations specified in the aircraft flight manual.

(2) An air operator shall have a weight and balance system that meets the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(3) An air operator shall specify in its company operations manual its weight and balance system and instructions to employees regarding the preparation and accuracy of weight and balance forms.

I suspect this is where things come in to play because if I look through our own operations manual, low and behold, to assist in determining the correct weight and balance of the aircraft, it requires for a current copy to be on board. Other charter operators probably have similar requirements. Its one of those things that they've went about in typical TC round-about fashion. Also relevant is CARs 704.32 and 705.39 which are identical to 703.37 quoted above.

Keep in mind then that in regards to the OP question the answer for case 1) and 2) would be depends on what your Company Operations Manual states.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Shiny

Your post only applies to flights operated under part 7 of the CARS. A private operator is operating in accordance with part 6, therefore I think Hedly is correct. The blanket "flight authority" statement would cover the requirement to assure yourself that the aircraft is within the weight and balance limits imposed in the limitation sections of the approved POH.

I was talking to the owner of a flight school a while ago and this issue came up. He required that a full weight and balance calculation be carried out before every training and rental flight. Part of his rational was if the student or renter pilot was ramped, there would be no doubt about the W & B. One thing is for sure if TC asks what you W & B is, and you have not done a full calculation, the only answer you want to give them is "under gross takeoff weight and with a C of G within the allowable range". If TC wants to dispute this than it is up to them to prove you wrong. BUT you had better be right......if you are flying over gross or mis loaded then you deserve everything TC throws at you

[Shiny Side Up]

Your post only applies to flights operated under part 7 of the CARS. A private operator is operating in accordance with part 6, therefore I think Hedly is correct. The blanket "flight authority" statement would cover the requirement to assure yourself that the aircraft is within the weight and balance limits imposed in the limitation sections of the approved POH.

Yup, it is correct that it only applies to part 7 operators. It is however where the concept comes from as many flight schools also have a charter OC, which then means that their aircraft must comply. I'm willing to bet many instructors don't realise that the AROWILL acronym often used to teach what must be on board often only applies to aircraft under the part 7, and then if its specified in the Ops manual.

[iflyforpie]

The acronym is what I remember plus doing MCM audits of our fleet (702/703) to ensure W + B reports are on board. Until I looked at the regs I didn't realize it wasn't applicable to Part 6.

[canadapilot924]

I'm willing to bet many instructors don't realise that the AROWILL acronym often used to teach what must be on board often only applies to aircraft under the part 7, and then if its specified in the Ops manual.

Shiny do you have a link for that? That's an important point i'd like to pass on

[Big Pistons Forever]

Your post only applies to flights operated under part 7 of the CARS. A private operator is operating in accordance with part 6, therefore I think Hedly is correct. The blanket "flight authority" statement would cover the requirement to assure yourself that the aircraft is within the weight and balance limits imposed in the limitation sections of the approved POH.

Yup, it is correct that it only applies to part 7 operators. It is however where the concept comes from as many flight schools also have a charter OC, which then means that their aircraft must comply. I'm willing to bet many instructors don't realise that the AROWILL acronym often used to teach what must be on board often only applies to aircraft under the part 7, and then if its specified in the Ops manual.

I think part of the problem is that many pilots think that because an FTU has a charter OC than all the flights must be operated under its provisions. The important thing to understand is what part of the CARS you are operating under with respect to any given flight, which for an FTU airplane could be Part 4, Part 6, or Part 7, all of which impose different regulatory and reporting requirements.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm willing to bet many instructors don't realise that the AROWILL acronym often used to teach what must be on board often only applies to aircraft under the part 7, and then if its specified in the Ops manual.

Shiny do you have a link for that? That's an important point i'd like to pass on

Actually if we get right down to specifics here, the only one of the documents which it is specified must "be on board" the aircraft is Log Book (and then only if the aircraft is going to have a destination different than its departure) if you follow the link in Hedley's post to the bottom of the page. The others all must either be available for presentation on request (A, R, I, and the second L ) or be available for use of the crew (O and in the above discussion of W in the case of aircraft operating under part 7). Needless to say the easiest way to fulfil these requirements is simply to make sure they are with the airplane when it is operating, especially since TC often doesn't accept copies there of (with certain exceptions, for instance a certified copy of the original Operation Handbook may be substituted for the original in the case of FTU aircraft).

I think part of the problem is that many pilots think that because an FTU has a charter OC than all the flights must be operated under its provisions.

It is also simplest to comply with the most onerus of the tasks presented all the time as well. An airplane which might be used for training and charter work in the same day, it wouldn't make operating sense to remove the unnecessary items when they weren't required, running the risk of forgetting them when they were required. By the nature of the business as well we are often preferring to overkill the paperwork than not have enough of it, no one's ever been written up after all because they were ramped and had too much paperwork.

It is possible/probable that I am not entirely correct, so feel free to modify the above as necessary.

[tkdowell]

Thanks for the posts all. Cheers.

[Bede]

Here's what I did. Make a WB for you and full fuel, than make one for you + pax+ full fuel. Do the same for no fuel. Plot the 4 WB moments on the chart and connect them making a parallelogram. So you can prove that for any combination of fuel and pax weight, you are within WB limits.

Also an AME doesn't weight the aircraft every time they do a new WB, they just do a calculation indicating the equipment they removed.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think part of the problem is that many pilots think that because an FTU has a charter OC than all the flights must be operated under its provisions.

It is also simplest to comply with the most onerus of the tasks presented all the time as well. An airplane which might be used for training and charter work in the same day, it wouldn't make operating sense to remove the unnecessary items when they weren't required, running the risk of forgetting them when they were required. By the nature of the business as well we are often preferring to overkill the paperwork than not have enough of it, no one's ever been written up after all because they were ramped and had too much paperwork.

It is possible/probable that I am not entirely correct, so feel free to modify the above as necessary.

[/quote]


I think the issue more often comes up the other way. That is students who have done all their flying at a FTU which is only operating under CAR 406 and has no associated charter OC (which I think is the majority). Since some schools won't even let students make a JL entry the knowledge of the required documents and what is necessary for regulatory compliance before /during/after a flight carried out under CARS part 7 is often very weak. For example most CPL students know that the static system/altitude encoder must be recertified every 24 months, but do they know what information the JL logbook entry must contain and/or that a altitude correlation chart must be carried in the aircraft ?