Do We Need a change in Licensing?

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Lurch
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Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Lurch »

With all the talk going on about the ATPL requirements, and how low most of us seem to think they are. I've been thinking that we don't necessarily need to raise the requirements but add another license to the mix.

What we need is to bring back a Senior CPL to replace the current ATPL and increase the requirements for the ATPL. So that the traveling public get the experienced pilots they deserve we also change the privileges afforded to the licenses.
CPL, same requirements as before but less privileges

Privileges
(i) PIC of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs but not while carrying passengers operating under 604 or 703
(ii) Co-pilot of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs while carrying Passengers operating under 604 or 703

SR-CPL, same requirements as ATPL but another 25 instrument, this will stop most instructors from achieving the license with only instructing experience

1500 TT
250 PIC
100 Night PIC
100 X-Country
100 Instrument

Privileges

(i) PIC of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs while carry passengers operating under 604 or 703

(ii) Co-pilot of an aeroplane operating under 704 or 705

ATPL

3000TT
1000PIC
1000 Multi
500 Co-pilot
500 Instrument

Privileges

(i) PIC of an aeroplane over MCTOW 19,000lbs
I think the ATPL should be for Multi-crew, Multi-engine aircraft and the requirements should reflect that. This is why I believe the Co-pilot and multi time is important.

Thoughts???

I couldn't decided what to do with aircraft between 12,500 and 19,000lbs, maybe change the SR-CPL to PIC under 19,000lbs SIC >19,000lbs.

Lurch
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by black hole »

Sounds fair to me!!!!


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canadapilot924
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by canadapilot924 »

Glad to see the night XC will be gone...can't say I ever enjoyed or understood that one!
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Hedley »

There's this thing called ICAO ....

Let's say I agree with your requirements, for operating aircraft in Canada - this is a matter of safety.

Naturally, this requirement should apply to foreign crews operating foreign aircraft in Canada, too, right?

How are you going to enforce this? Is Canada going to resign from ICAO?
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Lurch
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Lurch »

Hedley wrote:There's this thing called ICAO ....

Let's say I agree with your requirements, for operating aircraft in Canada - this is a matter of safety.

Naturally, this requirement should apply to foreign crews operating foreign aircraft in Canada, too, right?

How are you going to enforce this? Is Canada going to resign from ICAO?
I did think of ICAO

You don't stop foreign operators/crews from operating within Canada's airspace as long as they are operating as per thier regs.

IF a foreign pilot wants to convert their ATPL over and don't fulfill the Canadian Requirements for an ATPL they are just issued a SR-CPL. Hours are hours no matter where they are accumulated and we should credit them as such, but that doesn't mean we need to honour their licences. I haven't checked lately but does a Canadian ATPL transfer straight over to a JAA ATPL?? I doubt it.

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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by North Shore »

Why the 500 Copilot requirement? Why not a requirement to have a type rating for the ATPL? I'd suspect, in practice, that a person would probably have both before the became eligible to PIC 19000+.
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specvis
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by specvis »

Yup, gotta convince ICAO. Least the headquarters are on our soil.

We just need to start flight training better or screen CPLs and ATPLs better. Because I agree, there is a problem.


You can't understand the value of having night cross-country experience?
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Last edited by specvis on Sun May 09, 2010 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I do not think the problem is the hours required matrix it is a generalized failure of the industry to adequately prepare newer pilots for their responsibilties as they move up the ladder. This starts with CFI's not doing their upmost to maintain high standards and adequately supervise their young instructors, and then continues with 703 Chief pilots who do the absolute minimum of training and tacitly or even overtly encourage and reward the "get her done" attitude that underlies so many accidents. The sad fact is it is only well into a pilots career generally when he/she gets to one of the bigger 705 operators, or a top tier corporate flight dept, that they will see proper SOPs that are always followed, real MEL's, quality training and a comprehensive air and ground support organization.

IMO It is not hours that underpins the supposed "professionalism" that the ATPL is supposed to represent it is the professional attitude of the license holder. This can be shaped, or not, regardless of where the pilot acquired the intial 1500 hours...but it requires a lot of work by all the participants and a commitment to aspire to the highest levels of knowledge, ability, and professionalism.
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specvis
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by specvis »

I completely agree with the above post. The free market is to blame.
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Randleman
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Randleman »

The problem with this, is you will screw over companies that take low time guys to be copilots on their planes-they won't be able to stick around with the hopes of moving up.

Personally, as a low timer, I hate the fact that even 250 hours PIC are required :P But if I think about it objectively, I like these requirements.

I just think you need to have the night x/country in there, it IS valuble.
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StudentPilot
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by StudentPilot »

Please tell me I'm wrong.
CPL, same requirements as before but less privileges

Privileges
(i) PIC of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs but not while carrying passengers operating under 604 or 703
(ii) Co-pilot of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs while carrying Passengers operating under 604 or 703
So as a CPL I can no longer fly a 172 with a passenger on board, but I can fly a Caravan/King Air/Twin Otter in hard IMC if it's just freight onboard?

Does instructing count as having a pax on board? If not, why can you instruct with a CPL but not fly a passenger around in the same plane?

I'd rather have a Senior CPL as a requirement for instructing over flying a passenger in a 172.
I'd rather have a Senior CPL as a requirement for flying a Caravan/King Air/Twin Otter freighter over flying a passenger in a 172.
S-CPL
(i) PIC of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs while carry passengers operating under 604 or 703
(ii) Co-pilot of an aeroplane operating under 704 or 705

ATPL
Privileges
(i) PIC of an aeroplane over MCTOW 19,000lbs
When can you fly a plane for 702 ops? Why not say an ATPL can be PIC of a 12500+ aircraft, since the CPL's cannot. Do you really need 1500 hours to be a Twin Otter FO? A business man with a 172 registered to his company needs 1500 hours to fly his wife or kids around?

I can understand wanting a S-CPL to fly a Caravan/Otter/King Air, but it's stupid to say a CPL can't fly a 172 or 206 with pax since they all fall into 703.

Keeping it simple, I'd go with something along the lines of:
CPL - PIC 702 & 703/FO 704
S-CPL - PIC 704/FO 705
ATPL - PIC 705/FO 705

When most countries throw new pilots into 737/320s, I think we can manage with new pilots sitting right seat in 1900s and Twin Otters. But this would really mess with Buffalo, wouldn't it?
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Aviatard »

If I'm a low-time pilot, I'd like the requirements to be reduced, and not increased.

If I'm a high-time pilot, I'd like the requirements to be increased to somewhere below my current experience level, in order to keep the low time people from competing for my job.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by ywgflyboy »

I am reminded of "If it ain't broken, it ain't worth fixing".

Is the current system really broken?

In my opinion, everyone currently is granted the permissions they fairly deserve with our current system. You can pic a small plane, and FO a big one (Iatra of course), then when you get experience you can get the ATPL.

If I was to suggest a change to anything, it would be the CPL itself. Sure you hold that fancy "Commercial" pilots license but you don't know squat about commercial operations. The CPL is a glorified PPL that the schools figured out to rip another 10k from your pocket (sorry, you do a poweroff 180 and a 300nm). The CPL should be focused on real commercial operations. There should be apprentice work which (a)shows what the world is like (b)helps make connections (c)learning how to make crew decisions because you aren't always going to have that instructor next to you bail you out.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by iflyforpie »

Aviatard wrote:If I'm a low-time pilot, I'd like the requirements to be reduced, and not increased.

If I'm a high-time pilot, I'd like the requirements to be increased to somewhere below my current experience level, in order to keep the low time people from competing for my job.
You said perfectly what so few of us would ever want to admit!

For those who have their ATPL (I have most of the requirements, but no immediate plans on getting one), what would your career have looked like with the 'new' requirements? Probably not as rosy as the one you are currently enjoying. :wink:

ywgflyboy wrote:There should be apprentice work which (a)shows what the world is like (b)helps make connections (c)learning how to make crew decisions because you aren't always going to have that instructor next to you bail you out.
This actually sounds like a good idea. For AME Apprenticeships, we have to do 70% of the tasks listed in our logbook to qualify for a license in addition to hours of experience and tests. Perhaps there should be similar tasks laid out for the budding commercial pilot to go to the next level. Though it would be nice of us to do this type of thing ourselves rather than being forced to do so by regulation.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I do not think the problem is the hours required matrix it is a generalized failure of the industry to adequately prepare newer pilots for their responsibilties as they move up the ladder. This starts with CFI's not doing their upmost to maintain high standards and adequately supervise their young instructors, and then continues with 703 Chief pilots who do the absolute minimum of training and tacitly or even overtly encourage and reward the "get her done" attitude that underlies so many accidents. The sad fact is it is only well into a pilots career generally when he/she gets to one of the bigger 705 operators, or a top tier corporate flight dept, that they will see proper SOPs that are always followed, real MEL's, quality training and a comprehensive air and ground support organization.

IMO It is not hours that underpins the supposed "professionalism" that the ATPL is supposed to represent it is the professional attitude of the license holder. This can be shaped, or not, regardless of where the pilot acquired the intial 1500 hours...but it requires a lot of work by all the participants and a commitment to aspire to the highest levels of knowledge, ability, and professionalism.
+1

I am perplexed, and slightly irritated by this bit though
lurch wrote:SR-CPL, same requirements as ATPL but another 25 instrument, this will stop most instructors from achieving the license with only instructing experience
First I would say that adding simply more hours to be completed never fixes anything. You don't think that people wouldn't find ways to get that time? Your only purpose for that requirement seems to be to penalize instructors, but I don't see the logic in where that future ATPL pilots will be better qualified and safer. Why not another 50 hours? How about 100? Is there currently a problem in the industry where former instructors are out there smacking up airplanes? As of yet I have yet to read in an accident report that the time the pilot spent instructing was a contributing factor.

Now that's not to say that there isn't a problem out there, but that's not where I feel the ultimate source is. The complaint here being that ATPL pilots aren't of high enough quality. If that's the problem, it suprises me that no one has brought up the fact that there is no flight test for the ATPL currently. If we're really that worried that a pilot isn't qualified to hold a position, why don't we test him?
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by goldeneagle »

Lurch wrote: SR-CPL, same requirements as ATPL but another 25 instrument, this will stop most instructors from achieving the license with only instructing experience

...

500 Co-pilot
Same old story, somebody with the 'I have arrived, now lets lock the doors' attitude.

Why the special emphasis on trying to lock the instructors out of the upgrade path ? Why the _requirement_ for 500 hours of co-pilot on the ATPL ? Consider this, one of the privileges of the ATPL is that you can be the chief pilot, which makes you responsible for the training program. I would suggest that since chief pilot privileges are attached to the ATPL, and with that comes a training responsibility, by your logic, then 500 hours of instructing should be a requirement for the ATPL. Rather than trying to exclude instructors from your upgrade path, your logic actually suggests that instructing experience should be required, because training responsibilities are indeed one of the privileges that come with the ATPL and it's associated chief pilot possibilities.

Then on the co-pilot time, well that's just stupid. I'm sure I am not the only one out there that has never held a 'co-pilot' position. I've got single pilot IFR time that counts up in the thousands, and I've got two crew time also counting up in the thousands. Would you exclude me from your new ATPL simply because I have spent all my two crew time in the command position, and never held the second position ? The irony, the only times I've ever been dispatched as a 'co-pilot', was as the 'supervisor' in an 'under supervision' scenario. I could understand a requirement for a minimum amount of multi crew time, but, if that is part of the requirements, any seat in a multi-crew cockpit should be fine. Some airplanes even have more than two seats for flight crew. Third crew position can come in the form of a back seat working engines, it can also come in the form of a 'cruiser'. There are indeed many different ways to gain experience in an sop driven multi-crew cockpit, and they dont all involve sitting right seat in a beech 1900.

And since you are so hell bent on filtering, lets go back to 6 or 8 exams for the license, like it was in the good old days when I got mine. Exclude the calculators while we are at it, you get two hours to write the nav test, using a wiz-wheel, with a pass mark substantially higher than what it is today. Make sure there is absolutely no way somebody can take a weekend crash course that spews forth 100 multiple choice answers and then pass the written exam on monday. Lets go back to the good old days, the nav test alone is 100 questions, and you need to be proficient with the wiz wheel to get the correct answers. Then the met exam, another 100 questions which you cannot pass if you cannot decode AND UNDERSTAND an entire wx brief for an area which you are not familiar, and figure out from that just how many hours in the future you can expect a wind shift at a given airport, and to what direction / speed it's going to shift. Hehe another irony, going back to the concept of 6 exams that are actually hard enough to require subject knowledge, you'll tip the scales back to those lowly instructors you seem to so despise. Teach met a few times in the cpl and/or instrument groundschools, and all of a sudden, those exams become trivially easy, no studying required. There is no way to more thoroughly understand a subject, than to teach it for a while.

Your idea of 'appropriate' requirements is nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse to say 'make what I have the minimum, then the job market wont be so tough anymore', then try wrap it up in a 'good for the public' and 'it will be safer' gift wrap. But your gift wrap doesn't pass the sniff test of somebody looking at the big picture, and not the pigeon hole single advancement path you chose to take. There are many different advancement paths in the business, and each one presents it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. And not all of those advancement paths lead to a union job driving the bus on scheduled service, which appears to be the only destination your requirements seem to consider.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by North Shore »

Big Pistons: Doesn't the Class 1 instrument ride count as a flight test? You need to have successfully done one within the 12 months preceding your application....
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Shiny Side Up »

North Shore wrote:Big Pistons: Doesn't the Class 1 instrument ride count as a flight test? You need to have successfully done one within the 12 months preceding your application....
That's not a test however that demonstrates what we want to make sure our ATPL pilots are capable of. The class 1 instrument ride doesn't test a candidate's ability to work within a crew for example. We should ask the question of what does an ATPL holder have to be able to demonstrate that his/her experience to this point should have given them.

What knowledge should an ATPL holder have?
What skills should they be able to demonstrate?
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Doc »

Throughout history, in every endeavor, be it aviation, or basket weaving, nothing has ever been perfect. What works for you today, may not tomorrow. Even in a perfect system, someone will find something that really "needs" to be changed.
Keep swinging at windmills there folks. It's not likely to make a difference. :smt040 :smt040
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Panama Jack »

North Shore wrote:Why the 500 Copilot requirement? Why not a requirement to have a type rating for the ATPL? I'd suspect, in practice, that a person would probably have both before the became eligible to PIC 19000+.

Your suggestion is not all that far off. Many countries (and I believe also ICAO Annex 1) specify that the qualifying flight to be eligibile for an ATP is to be as Pilot-in-Command in an aircraft Type Certificated for a minimum of 2-crew (in other words, a Part 25 aircraft-- requiring a type rating). Canada and the US have filed a difference with ICAO on this requirement for issuance of the ATP.

I remember a Transport Canada Aviation Safety Letter musing about this issue about 15 years ago.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by iflyforpie »

Doc wrote:Throughout history, in every endeavor, be it aviation, or basket weaving, nothing has ever been perfect. What works for you today, may not tomorrow. Even in a perfect system, someone will find something that really "needs" to be changed.
Keep swinging at windmills there folks. It's not likely to make a difference. :smt040 :smt040
:smt044

Funny, because if I had to chose one poster on here that epitomized Don Quixote...
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Ogee »

Lurch wrote:With all the talk going on about the ATPL requirements, and how low most of us seem to think they are. I've been thinking that we don't necessarily need to raise the requirements but add another license to the mix.

What we need is to bring back a Senior CPL to replace the current ATPL and increase the requirements for the ATPL. So that the traveling public get the experienced pilots they deserve we also change the privileges afforded to the licenses.
CPL, same requirements as before but less privileges

Privileges
(i) PIC of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs but not while carrying passengers operating under 604 or 703
(ii) Co-pilot of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs while carrying Passengers operating under 604 or 703

SR-CPL, same requirements as ATPL but another 25 instrument, this will stop most instructors from achieving the license with only instructing experience

1500 TT
250 PIC
100 Night PIC
100 X-Country
100 Instrument

Privileges

(i) PIC of an aeroplane under MCTOW 12,500lbs while carry passengers operating under 604 or 703

(ii) Co-pilot of an aeroplane operating under 704 or 705

ATPL

3000TT
1000PIC
1000 Multi
500 Co-pilot
500 Instrument

Privileges

(i) PIC of an aeroplane over MCTOW 19,000lbs
I think the ATPL should be for Multi-crew, Multi-engine aircraft and the requirements should reflect that. This is why I believe the Co-pilot and multi time is important.

Thoughts???

I couldn't decided what to do with aircraft between 12,500 and 19,000lbs, maybe change the SR-CPL to PIC under 19,000lbs SIC >19,000lbs.

Lurch
Good post Lurch. I guess like a lot of the older blokes here, I used to have the Senior Commercial licence. It was a very good progression with that scheme.
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Re: Do We Need a change in Licensing?

Post by Ogee »

Hedley wrote:There's this thing called ICAO ....

Let's say I agree with your requirements, for operating aircraft in Canada - this is a matter of safety.

Naturally, this requirement should apply to foreign crews operating foreign aircraft in Canada, too, right?

How are you going to enforce this? Is Canada going to resign from ICAO?
Just about to make this post, but I think that at the time Canada had the SCPL, many other countries didn't. I don't think Canada has to resign from ICAO if other countries don't use the SCPL progression. We take it on good faith that there licensing systems are adequate, not identical to ours, when we allow them to fly their aircraft with their crews over our airspace.
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