PPL expense compensation –permitted?

[nickorette]

Can you accept compensation for your expenses with a PPL? You wouldn’t be “making” any money, you’d be compensated for your operating costs (e.g. fuel, insurance, maintenance reserve, etc.)

I was thinking of one way of building a lot of time for a relatively low cost was to offer “free” sightseeing tours or something –with compensation paid for operating costs.

Is this something I could do with a PPL, or would I be required to upgrade to a CPL?

[Blakey]

Wait, I've got to get a bowl of popcorn and a comfy chair for this!

[. ._]

Here it comes! lil will blast in with a search slap, everyone else will get furious because of the "chisel charter" factor.

CARs will be quoted and egos will be bruised. A good ol' Avcanada newbie spank. Stay tuned...

-istp

[slam525i]

Try and be nice people.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#401_28

Short answer, only if you own the airplane.




(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(d) receives a reimbursement that
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

[Brewguy]

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)
<snip>
(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

This is the key part of that Reg. The passenger(s) have to be 'incidental'. What they mean by that, is you have to have been doing the flight on your own, even if no passengers were coming along with you.

Example: you own an airplane, and want to go somewhere (say a fly-in airshow, or away to a cottage, etc). You're going no matter what - with or without passengers. A couple of buddies want to come along ... there are 3 of you, so you split the "costs" 3 ways (including you paying your share).

That example would be allowed. Your situation - not so much.

So coles notes version:
- You own the aircraft.
- You are doing the trip on your own, even if no passengers come.
- Passengers happen to come along, so you split the costs evenly.

Clear as mud?

[Sulako]

Nickorette - the only way you can accept compensation for expenses from pax is if you are planning on doing a flight anyway, and someone asks to come along, and they only pay a share of the total costs of the flight, which are directly related to the flight.

It's really important to make the distinction that you have to be planning on doing the flight anyway whether or not a pax tags along ("carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight"). This means you can't do a flight where you ask "Where do you want to go, I'll take you there if you help with the costs". If you are already going from, say, Kitchener to London and someone says "Hey, can I hitch a ride with you, I'll help pay for gas", then it's okay.

Under these terms, you can't offer 'free sightseeing tours' unless you are already planning on going up flying during a nice day and someone happens to want to come along - under the rules you CANNOT tailor your schedule or destination around the passenger's desires.

It's also important to note that you can't have the pax pay all your costs, only a share. With a PPL and no operating certificate, there is zero way you can fly without paying some portion of the costs yourself, and absolutely no way you can make money on the trip.

If you disobey any of these rules and heaven forbid something happens, your ass will be grass and TC will be a lawnmower, which is not a good way to start a flying career, but would be a hell of a way to end it.


//Edit: Brewguy is mostly correct, but you don't actually have to be the owner of the aircraft, you can still rent one ("Owner or operator") and do this legally, as long as the pax (who are paying a share of the costs) are incidental to the trip.

[airway]

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

.

You don't need to own the plane. The operator can be the private pilot that is renting the airplane.

[slam525i]

You guys may be right. I'm unclear as to the definition of "operator". The CARs say

"operator" - in respect of an aircraft, means the person that has possession of the aircraft as owner, lessee or otherwise; (utilisateur)

Logically, if you're renting, you're the lessee, and so you're the operator, but if you look at CADORs, rented aircraft always have the "operator" listed as the flight training unit, and based on the screw ups, I'm assuming most of them are when the airplane is actually rented out (i.e. the FTU employee is not the PIC).

So, am I to understand that when I rent an airplane, I am temporarily the operator, and the CADOR entries for "operator" are done out of convenience?

[Brewguy]

Good catch guys.
Thanks for the clarification (on the owner or operator thing)- it's been a while since I had to quote the regs at someone.

[TA/RA]

Its that time of year again! Isn't it? The weather gets nice in the spring and we suddenly have a few dozen more adhoc sightseeing operators. I swear we should make this topic recurring national holiday.


nickorette, here is some contact info for you, I'm sure if you call these guys they'll be able to answer your question just be sure to provide your name a license number at the beginning of the call.

Tel: 604-666-5668
Ask for Jake.

[cdnpilot77]

LOL TA/RA....Nickorette, maybe you should have raised your hand and asked some questions at week 1 of PPL ground school.

[Sulako]

LOL TA/RA....Nickorette, maybe you should have raised your hand and asked some questions at week 1 of PPL ground school.

Smugness is not needed nor is it appreciated - it's a confusing subject and lots of people have misunderstandings around the legality of having pax pay for shared costs. Nickorette is asking now, which is fine - at least Nickorette is getting clarification before attempting flights like this.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Stepping far far out on a limb..........I am going to apply a reality filter to the above posts.

Nicorrette

I am assuming you are a new private pilot.

The above post accurately quote the regulations, and therefore severely limits the amount of any flight that can be shared. With respect to the question of operator as far as I know, nobody who followed the regulations on the amount (not the total cost shared, only fuel/oil/fees) and circumstances (passengers incidental to the flight) has ever been prosecuted on the basis that they were not the operator because the aircraft was rented.

So you have a bunch of friends who want to fly to city XXXXX to see the ball game (go for lunch, go sightseeing etc etc) and they are all willing to split the cost of renting the aircraft. This actually happens fairly regularly and for the most part nobody is going to care. BUT understand this not in accordance with the regulations, so if you are going to do this make sure you pay the full cost to the place you rented the aircraft, any "settling up" occurs in cash, and well away from the airport, you did not make a profit, and for God's sake keep your mouth shut.
Personally I do not have a big problem with the above because I think it is not unresonable and it is within the spirit of the regulations. The key part here is the incidental part of the transaction is maintained. They are friends and family and everyone has decieded before hand, including you, to go to someplace. You are not taking money away from a commercial charter operation, because your passengers would not have chartered an aircraft on their own.

Where this gets ugly is when soembody takes the next step and starts soliciting for passengers from the general public to pay a a portion or even all of the rental costs.
You are now offering a commercial air service without all of the required prerequists (aka the chisel charter). As soon as the local commercial operators find out they will report you to Transport Canada and you will be prosecuted. If you have any desires to have a career in commercial aviation you can forget about them and you will probably never be able to rent an airplane from any of the local operators again.

Bottom line: Full sharing of the rental costs happens all the time in the real world, but it is definitely contrary to the law.

Ducking and running for cover.......as the howling wolf pack of Avcanada commences pursuit....

[nickorette]

Ok, I understand. Thats for the clairifcation.

Now two questions:

If I get a private operating certificate (1600+/year CBSAA membership) what additional privaleges would I be given?

Now by "fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable" would this include the maintenance reserve? I'm assuming that it would not include yearly insurance.

Thanks for the help guys

[Big Pistons Forever]

Nic

There is much more than paying the 1600 dollars to CBAA to get a POC. You need to have an approved ops and maintainance manual, SMS, QA systm,executive managenment structure, approved training plan etc etc. In practice you only see POC's for companies operating turbo props and jets.

The Fee's the regulation is talking about are like landing fees, or other fees that are incured as a direct result of that particular flight.

[TA/RA]

I think BPF has it nailed. just be reasonable. Just know that if something happens during "your sightseeing flight" that you were "doing anyways" and anyone catches wind of what was actually going on then insurance will be void.

But in all fairness, we all have been blessed with the gift of flight and we would like to share it with our friends. I have taken buddies up and they have tossed me a few bucks to cover their portion. Like I said before, just be reasonable.

[Sulako]

Ok, I understand. Thats for the clairifcation.

Now two questions:

If I get a private operating certificate (1600+/year CBSAA membership) what additional privaleges would I be given?

Unfortunately, none, at least not in the way you are hoping for. Despite the somewhat misleading name, a POC doesn't give you any more leeway whatsoever re: charging money for flights - you aren't allowed to charter your aircraft out on a POC, that's what CARS part 702/703/704/705 Operating Certificates are for.

A POC is required when you privately operate a large airplane or a pressurized turbine powered airplane. unlike when you own/operate a Cessna 172, essentially you have to run your operation like a small airline operation. By "like a small airline" I mean you need to have qualified people in charge, you need a maintenance program, and you absolutely need an effective SMS system.

Basically it's a way of regulating expensive privately owned aircraft so that the rich people who own/fly in them have a higher degree of oversight than someone who owns/operates a light piston aircraft.

We run our Citation 550 under both a CBAA POC (for private/company flights) and under CARS 704 (for charter flights). When we run charters, we use our CARS 704 OC (and ops manual) and when we run privately, we use our CBAA POC (and ops manual).

The only real advantage to us having a POC on top of our CARS 704 OC is we don't have to multiply our required balanced field lengths by 1.6 like we do on charters, we aren't subject to the commercial operations approach ban visibility limits while in Canada, and when we fly into the US we can operate like a private aircraft, which means we don't have to get US customs clearance to proceed to each/every destination once we clear initial US customs. Oh, and we don't technically need PPC's to operate a private flight, but as all our pilots hold PPC's for charter ops anyway, that's neither here nor there.

[cdnpilot77]

LOL TA/RA....Nickorette, maybe you should have raised your hand and asked some questions at week 1 of PPL ground school.

Smugness is not needed nor is it appreciated - it's a confusing subject and lots of people have misunderstandings around the legality of having pax pay for shared costs. Nickorette is asking now, which is fine - at least Nickorette is getting clarification before attempting flights like this.

I am not one to go back on what I say but you are correct Sulako it was unnecessary and I sent Nickorette a PM already.

[CarbHeat]

With regards to passengers being "incidental", I foresee somebody bringing up the situation of a PPL building PIC time for their CPL. They're going to fly those hours regardless; however a part of their allowance to carry passengers is based on the fact that they'd like to have some of their costs subsidized.

[mashowski]

Can you take people for rides if the payment for the flight goes to a charitable organization?
Example; Pax donates $100 to the local aircraft museum in exchange for the flight.
Thanks,
LGM

[Prairie Chicken]

Mash, if you derive a benefit from the flight it becomes hire or reward, and therefore is not permitted. This would include the benefit of building hours toward a higher licence, or of a tax deduction from your charity, etc. The posts above are correct in that a) a pp cannot obtain any reimbursement except in the cases of pax splitting costs when they go with the pp & are incidental to the flight; and b) it happens in a few, quiet, insignificant cases & mostly no one cares until something happens or a cp or operator gets wind of it & cries "chisel charter".

On the question of operator, you are the operator if you have care & control of the a/c. This would include as the lessee or even if, for example, your brother owns the a/c & lets you use it periodically. When you do use it, you are the operator.

[Brewguy]

There is an exception to the rule...
If you are looking to build some hours, with someone else covering the costs, join your local CASARA unit as a volunteer. You will typically have to train/qualify as a spotter and navigator before being allowed to train as a SAR pilot, and there is also a minimum hours requirement for insurance. However, its a very rewarding experience, and you'll meet a lot of great people. Transport Canada is well aware of the program (in fact they work closely with CASARA), so you don't have to worry about any of this shady, pseudo-commercial stuff you're talking about.

Another type of 'free' flying you can do with a private license is to join a glider club as a tow pilot. Again, you'll have to join the club (pay a membership), have a minimum number of hours for insurance and meet other club-specific rules.

[Prairie Chicken]

Brewguy, you're right about CASARA, & bringing it up is a good point. I'm sure there is a statutory exemption which permits the CASARA flying but don't recall right off what it is.

I'm not so sure about the tow-plane flying though. I'm thinking that's still in the commercial realm.

[all_ramped_up]

And there is always the local Air Cadet Squadrons as well.

Sometimes they do Fam Flights and need Private Pilots for those. Worth checking in to.

Air Cadets pays for the flights and you get the hours. Volunteering with them as a Ground School Instructor is also a good way to reinforce your fundamentals in your noggin as well.

Win/Win Sitch-ee-ay-shun really.

[SK_pile_it]

this topic is a sketchy one, and I have spoken to a TC official in person about this matter. The problem with the term "for hire or reward" is a very grey area. The way they see it is that "reward" is not just a matter of money. Time building towards a commercial is considered a reward. My best guess around that one is to only have a cat 3 medical then no one can prove you are time building towards a commercial. As well you can collect money to cover costs but it cannot be free of charge to yourself. I guess what it boils down to is don't get caught. If no one says anything, you will be fine. The only way you will get violated is if someone reports it.
On the subject of CASARA, the time requirements are:
150 hrs PIC, with no less than 50 hrs on single pilot, non high performance, single engine land airplanes
For light multi engine airplanes: 1000 hrs TT, 100 hrs multi engine time and no less than 10 hrs on type and model. *note* for every 100 hrs multi over and beyond the requirement, the total time can be reduced by 100 hrs.
For retractable gear aircraft: 250 hrs TT and 25 hrs on retractable gear aircraft.
For float planes: 100 hrs TT on floats and 5 hrs on floats within the past 90 days