Cheap Labour Required

[Doc]

"Northern Air is looking to fill a ramp position. The minimum requirement is 500 hours total time. This position will lead to a King Air First Officer position for the right individual. Accommodation in the company crew house is available."

Sure, Okay.

[JohnnyDrama]

Does Northern Air usually do this? I didn't think they hired ramp guys...

[On condition]

[moocow]

This position will lead to a King Air First Officer position for the right individual.

So does that mean they will still hire people who won't be FO but don't tell them that at the start? Guess I should just continue looking for a job in IT instead.

[Wantajob!]

MMMM that carrot tasted good!!

I am the last rampie there looking to replace. Started April 3 and already moved up to the flight line. I guess all you keyboard authorities know everything though. Go on Bash Away!!

[fingersmac]

This position will lead to a King Air First Officer position for the right individual.

So does that mean they will still hire people who won't be FO but don't tell them that at the start? Guess I should just continue looking for a job in IT instead.

No. It means if you're useless, then you'll be stuck on the ramp.

[petey]

No. It means if you're useless, then you'll be stuck on the ramp.

Exactly.
Sounds like a decent gig for the right person.
Don't hate the player, hate the game Doc.

[moocow]

@Wantajob : congrads on moving ahead with your career. Did the company have any kind of performance review with the rampies telling them if they are candidates to move into a flying position? Or do they just announce promotion as management decides?

[rocco1]

Doc, I am still awating for an email. Should I give up and make myself an idea about you just reading your posts?

regards
overseas

[Doc]

Don't hate the player, hate the game Doc.

Without the "player" there would be no "game".
I've seen far too may good players get screwed.

Happy for Wantajob, though. The simple fact that it worked for him, is no guarantee it'll work for the next guy....

[Doc]

Doc, I am still awating for an email. Should I give up and make myself an idea about you just reading your posts?

regards
overseas

That's not the way to go about getting one either. Do you not have a PM feature?

[LegoMan]

They've never done this before. They used to hire 500hr guys straight into the plane... don't be a whore and tell these companies you are not a ramp rat but a pilot.

[termerair]

don't be a whore and tell these companies you are not a ramp rat but a pilot.

Something you didn't do when you were working on the ground up North before going onto the flightline...

T.

[fingersmac]

The simple fact that it worked for him, is no guarantee it'll work for the next guy....

There's no guarantees in life!

I'd say better off working on the ground for Northern Air with a very good possibility of moving on to the flight line than sitting at home complaining about the lack of opportunities for low time pilots on Avcanada. There's nothing preventing you from quitting if you find the company isn't living up to it's end of the bargain. There's also nothing preventing you from continuing to search for that elusive entry level flying position while working the ground.

I've seen far too may good players get screwed.

And I haven't. I've met and worked with many that have made their way from the ramp to the flight line. There were a few that got screwed over the years but they screwed themselves by exhibiting a poor attitude and work ethic.

[Rowdy]

I've met and worked with many that have made their way from the ramp to the flight line. There were a few that got screwed over the years but they screwed themselves by exhibiting a poor attitude and work ethic.

Exactly. Dont be a retard!!

[Doc]

There were a few that got screwed over the years but they screwed themselves by exhibiting a poor attitude and work ethic.

Now, there's the crux of the whole problem. "poor attitude, and work ethic...." are subjective. That, simply translated, means somebody doesn't like you. Pure and simple. You want a pilot? Hire a pilot. You want a ramp person? Hire a ramp person.
The very fact that this particular company never used to do this, is proof enough they're just looking to cash in on the glut in the pilot market to get themselves cheap labour. Everybody knows pilots will work for peanuts. So, lets get a couple of them to do our ramp work. Stinks.

[Twigs&Berries]

Now, there's the crux of the whole problem. "poor attitude, and work ethic...." are subjective. That, simply translated, means somebody doesn't like you. Pure and simple. You want a pilot? Hire a pilot. You want a ramp person? Hire a ramp person.
The very fact that this particular company never used to do this, is proof enough they're just looking to cash in on the glut in the pilot market to get themselves cheap labour. Everybody knows pilots will work for peanuts. So, lets get a couple of them to do our ramp work. Stinks.

I'm not sure how you figure that "poor attitude and work ethic = someone doesn't like you". That's a pretty naive statement that I would expect to hear from someone with a poor attitude and work ethic.

Also I'm sure that many of the unemployed pilots on this forum would much rather be working towards a flying position than working at a hardware store. They might even be upset when told that they were ineligible for a ramp position because they were a pilot and the company is only looking for "a ramp person". Hhhhmmm .... if the hardware store took your advise they wouldn't even even be able to get that job at the hardware store because the hardware store would only be looking for a hardware person, not a pilot. Guess all the low time pilots should just sit around and wait for a pilot job and only a pilot job.

I didn't see anything about pay on the ad. How do you know that it is cheap labor?

[petey]

Without the "player" there would be no "game".

True; however, not unlike Major League Baseball circa 1994-95, the employer will use replacement players. There is an abundance of people willing to play.

[fingersmac]

Now, there's the crux of the whole problem. "poor attitude, and work ethic...." are subjective.

It's not subjective.

Sleeping at your desk at work; watching movies on the computer instead of keeping busy; complaining that it's too cold outside to help the shorthanded ramp staff load an airplane (and it isn't even winter yet!); consistently showing up late for work; sitting in the break room at every opportunity instead of finding something to do to keep busy; taking 2 hours for lunch instead of 1; disappearing when there's four airplanes waiting to be loaded simultaneously; not helping out others because it's "not your job/responsibility".

I could go on! These are all examples I've witnessed first hand as a line pilot and a ramp worker.

[xsbank]

Doc, with all due respect my friend, why do you bother? Us crusties think it sucks, but those who have done it obviously loved it, cannot fathom those of us who didn't do it, how we actually got to fly for a living without ramping. Its beyond them and totally incomprehensible.

You and I know that no company could use and abuse their workers like those who use rampies do. No 'normal' person would work his ass off and kiss other's asses and put in the long hours that rampies do for what they pay pilot wannabes. Only someone who wants to fly would put up with that crap.

Why would you stay and work for someone who treated you like crap after your checkout?

Funny how those who have been screwed that way are forever grateful and think everyone should have to do it just to prove to themselves that they weren't the only morons out there.

Once you realize that YOU ARE THE ONLY PART OF THE OPERATION WHOSE COSTS ARE NEGOTIABLE will you finally realize how you were screwed.

[Twigs&Berries]

You and I know that no company could use and abuse their workers like those who use rampies do. No 'normal' person would work his ass off and kiss other's asses and put in the long hours that rampies do for what they pay pilot wannabes. Only someone who wants to fly would put up with that crap.

You are making a lot of generalizations here. Not all companies abuse their rampies and not all rampies work long hours. Many 'normal' people go to work and do the best job that they can, no matter what the job and what the pay because they have work ethic and integrity (although I do agree that it is not normal to place one's lips on a bosses ass).

Why would you stay and work for someone who treated you like crap after your checkout?

I agree that you shouldn't stay and work for someone who treats you like crap, at least this way you can find out how they treat you before signing the usual training bonds.

Funny how those who have been screwed that way are forever grateful and think everyone should have to do it just to prove to themselves that they weren't the only morons out there.

Not all people who worked the ramp are morons. Not the most tactful thing to say.

Once you realize that YOU ARE THE ONLY PART OF THE OPERATION WHOSE COSTS ARE NEGOTIABLE will you finally realize how you were screwed

You should let the JAZZ pilots know that there is no point in striking, now that you've enlightened us to the fact that only rampie wages are negotiable.

[Wantajob!]

Point 1. Spent all last year looking for a strictly flying job. One year passed and all I ended up with was working in construction on the GROUND not building any aviation contacts and still just as far away from a flying job as the year before.

Point 2. I am banking more money in to my savings account now per month working on the ramp then I was able to last year working in construction

Point 3. Mon-Fri 8 hours a day, every 3rd weekend worked. Less hours per month than I worked in Construction.

For all the other Wannabes, maybe you should listen to these guys. Stay in your basement and wait for that direct entry flying job. It will come!

Anyways don't need to comment any more, I have to go study the SOP's for my new flying job!! Good luck to anybody who looks to this forum for advice!!

[flyinthebug]

Ok Doc. This is a topic we can never seem to agree on, so let me offer you a compromise.

Lets say that its a dual position, ramp and PA31-350 F/0 (Or Beech A100 or both). When there is a charter and its your turn, you drop the wrenches or broom or rags and you dawn your flight suit and jump in and fly. When you get back in 3.5 hours, you resume your ramp duties. Once you have proven yourself both as a pilot to the CP and a reliable team player (to the DOM), then you leave the ramp behind and become a full time pilot. How does that sound? FYI..This process rarely took more then 4-6 months and voila, they were full time pilots. Tell me please, how this was a wrong or bad process? The wages were kinda low, but I didnt ask for bonds or "pay me for the PPC". I had them sign a promissory note and only 1st yr or 1st PPC, then their word was good enough for me.

Im never going to get you to agree that its "ok" to work the ramp and that you gain invaluable experience in doing so.. because you always accuse me of slave labour. That said, the above is a close model of how we tried to do things over at our place...and I think most of the ramp/FO`s were happy because they flew 30 hours some months and 110 others. In the end, everyone wins. How can this practice be so frowned upon by such knowledgeable people like yourself?
The program at our old employer.. sucked a$$ and we both know it and agree on it. Two years sometimes before they even saw the right seat of a 208. That was ridiculous, but I am curious to hear your opinion of how we did things up north? Over to you....

[xsbank]

I have never argued against ramp work if you are actively getting checked out. In fact, I have never argued against helping out with all the tasks required in a company, if you are getting checked out. And after you are checked out, you should absolutely help out with all the tasks required. I am not anti-work, I am anti-slavery.

Of course all companies are not alike, but if you are not flying every flight that you are qualified for, getting actively checked out, they just want cheap labour and you are being screwed.

[50'minimums]

Congrats wantajob. Hard work, an upbeat attitude have got you into that desired seat. Looking forward to flying with ya, and good luck to the next rampie.... follow wantajobs lead and you can get your career started too.