Fly into CYYT for a year. Rudder will be no problem.
I think there was a China airlines (can't remember who for sure) loss of control over the drink once and it had to do with the captain not using the rudders at all. Everything I've flown has yaw dampeners, but I still have my feet on the pedals, just in case.
Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
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Snagmaster E
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Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Money, wish I had it...
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Here you go: I only copied the Executive Summary for those of you who move your lips when you read. This is what regulators are fussing with:
Executive Summary
The most important job of the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is to protect the safety of the traveling public. We aim to achieve this goal through ensuring that operators provide effective and high quality training to flight crews and other personnel; identifying and implementing most effective practices; maintaining and improving critical infrastructure; ensuring compliance with laws and regulations; developing new laws and regulations when appropriate; and working collaboratively with all interested parties.
On February 12, 2009, a Colgan Air Bombardier Dash-8 Q400, operating as Continental Connection Flight 3407, crashed while on approach to Buffalo, New York. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) conducted a public hearing on this accident from May 12-14, 2009. During that hearing and subsequent congressional hearings on June 10 and June 11, 2009, several issues came to light regarding pilot training and qualifications, flight crew fatigue, and consistency of safety standards between operators.
In response to this information, on June 15, 2009, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and FAA Administrator J. Randolph Babbitt initiated a Call to Action on Airline Safety and Pilot Training for FAA, air carriers, and labor organizations to jointly identify and implement safety improvements. All participants have made progress toward completing goals and objectives stated in the June 24, 2009, action plan that resulted from the June 15, 2009, meeting.
• Fatigue—The FAA has made substantial progress toward developing a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) based on the Flight and Duty Time Limitations and Rest Requirements (FDR) Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) recommendations. We anticipate NPRM publication in the spring of 2010.
• Focused Inspection—The FAA inspected 85 carriers. Fourteen carriers were not inspected because they already complied with the intent of the Focused Inspection by having FAA-approved Advanced Qualification Programs (AQP). Seventy-six carriers (including the 14 AQP carriers) have systems to comply with remedial training requirements. An additional 15 carriers have some parts of a remedial training system. Eight carriers lacked any component of a remedial training system and have received additional scrutiny. Additionally, FAA inspectors observed 2,419 training/checking events. Corrective action is underway for those deemed inadequate.
• Training Program Review Guidance—The FAA has drafted comprehensive guidance for the industry and FAA inspectors as to how to review training in the context of a Safety Management System (SMS). Publication will occur in February 2010.
• Air Carrier Commitments—In response to Administrator Babbitt’s letter requesting written confirmation of commitment to practices discussed at the June 15, 2009,
1 12/31/09
meeting, the FAA received responses from 82 percent of part 121 air carriers. These carriers represent 99 percent of aircraft operating under part 121. For aircraft operating under part 121, 98 percent are operated by carriers who have, or intend to implement, an Aviation Safety Action Plan (ASAP) and 94 percent are operated by carriers who have, or intend to implement, both ASAP and a Flight Operations Quality Assurance (FOQA) program. Also, the largest passenger airlines have taken steps to increase communication, data sharing, and cooperation with their partner airlines on implementation of effective safety practices.
• Labor Organization Commitments—In response to Administrator Babbitt’s letter requesting written confirmation of commitments discussed in the June 15, 2009, meeting, all seven labor organizations responded favorably. To advance this effort, the FAA will host a gathering of pilot employee organizations in early 2010 to develop actionable guidelines on cockpit discipline and pilot professionalism.
• Mentoring—The FAA remains strongly committed to developing processes to effectively transfer experience among pilots. The FAA will ask participants at the planned 2010 gathering of pilot employee organizations to address this topic.
• Regional Safety Forums—To share the ideas generated at the June 15, 2009, meeting, listen to stakeholder comments, and collect additional ideas on enhancing airline safety and pilot training, the FAA hosted 12 regional safety forums around the country. Common themes included universal concern about pilot fatigue and labor/management conflicts, including disagreement as to where to draw the line in some cases between industrial relations and operational issues.
• Crew Training Requirements Rulemaking—The FAA received a large number of comments. The Agency has determined that it will be necessary to issue a supplemental (revised) NPRM to address some of the issues raised during the comment period. We expect to publish the revised proposal in early 2010.
• Guidance to Aviation Safety Inspectors—The FAA’s Aviation Safety organization (AVS) completed this action by including interactive, scenario-based workshops on regulatory oversight at its annual All-Managers Conference in August 2009.
The FAA accomplished significant work on the Airline Safety and Pilot Training Action Plan. Through the regional safety forums, the Agency gathered valuable information from the aviation community that has been, and will continue to be, reflected in guidance material.
The FAA is committed to completing these actions and to the continued improvement of Airline Safety and Pilot Training Action Plan initiatives. Follow up actions include a planned gathering of pilot employee organizations in early 2010 to develop actionable guidelines on professionalism and the transfer of experience.
2 12/31/09
The DOT and FAA will continue to work with all interested parties to address the issues raised by the Colgan 3407 accident and to protect the safety of the traveling public.
Executive Summary
The most important job of the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is to protect the safety of the traveling public. We aim to achieve this goal through ensuring that operators provide effective and high quality training to flight crews and other personnel; identifying and implementing most effective practices; maintaining and improving critical infrastructure; ensuring compliance with laws and regulations; developing new laws and regulations when appropriate; and working collaboratively with all interested parties.
On February 12, 2009, a Colgan Air Bombardier Dash-8 Q400, operating as Continental Connection Flight 3407, crashed while on approach to Buffalo, New York. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) conducted a public hearing on this accident from May 12-14, 2009. During that hearing and subsequent congressional hearings on June 10 and June 11, 2009, several issues came to light regarding pilot training and qualifications, flight crew fatigue, and consistency of safety standards between operators.
In response to this information, on June 15, 2009, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and FAA Administrator J. Randolph Babbitt initiated a Call to Action on Airline Safety and Pilot Training for FAA, air carriers, and labor organizations to jointly identify and implement safety improvements. All participants have made progress toward completing goals and objectives stated in the June 24, 2009, action plan that resulted from the June 15, 2009, meeting.
• Fatigue—The FAA has made substantial progress toward developing a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) based on the Flight and Duty Time Limitations and Rest Requirements (FDR) Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) recommendations. We anticipate NPRM publication in the spring of 2010.
• Focused Inspection—The FAA inspected 85 carriers. Fourteen carriers were not inspected because they already complied with the intent of the Focused Inspection by having FAA-approved Advanced Qualification Programs (AQP). Seventy-six carriers (including the 14 AQP carriers) have systems to comply with remedial training requirements. An additional 15 carriers have some parts of a remedial training system. Eight carriers lacked any component of a remedial training system and have received additional scrutiny. Additionally, FAA inspectors observed 2,419 training/checking events. Corrective action is underway for those deemed inadequate.
• Training Program Review Guidance—The FAA has drafted comprehensive guidance for the industry and FAA inspectors as to how to review training in the context of a Safety Management System (SMS). Publication will occur in February 2010.
• Air Carrier Commitments—In response to Administrator Babbitt’s letter requesting written confirmation of commitment to practices discussed at the June 15, 2009,
1 12/31/09
meeting, the FAA received responses from 82 percent of part 121 air carriers. These carriers represent 99 percent of aircraft operating under part 121. For aircraft operating under part 121, 98 percent are operated by carriers who have, or intend to implement, an Aviation Safety Action Plan (ASAP) and 94 percent are operated by carriers who have, or intend to implement, both ASAP and a Flight Operations Quality Assurance (FOQA) program. Also, the largest passenger airlines have taken steps to increase communication, data sharing, and cooperation with their partner airlines on implementation of effective safety practices.
• Labor Organization Commitments—In response to Administrator Babbitt’s letter requesting written confirmation of commitments discussed in the June 15, 2009, meeting, all seven labor organizations responded favorably. To advance this effort, the FAA will host a gathering of pilot employee organizations in early 2010 to develop actionable guidelines on cockpit discipline and pilot professionalism.
• Mentoring—The FAA remains strongly committed to developing processes to effectively transfer experience among pilots. The FAA will ask participants at the planned 2010 gathering of pilot employee organizations to address this topic.
• Regional Safety Forums—To share the ideas generated at the June 15, 2009, meeting, listen to stakeholder comments, and collect additional ideas on enhancing airline safety and pilot training, the FAA hosted 12 regional safety forums around the country. Common themes included universal concern about pilot fatigue and labor/management conflicts, including disagreement as to where to draw the line in some cases between industrial relations and operational issues.
• Crew Training Requirements Rulemaking—The FAA received a large number of comments. The Agency has determined that it will be necessary to issue a supplemental (revised) NPRM to address some of the issues raised during the comment period. We expect to publish the revised proposal in early 2010.
• Guidance to Aviation Safety Inspectors—The FAA’s Aviation Safety organization (AVS) completed this action by including interactive, scenario-based workshops on regulatory oversight at its annual All-Managers Conference in August 2009.
The FAA accomplished significant work on the Airline Safety and Pilot Training Action Plan. Through the regional safety forums, the Agency gathered valuable information from the aviation community that has been, and will continue to be, reflected in guidance material.
The FAA is committed to completing these actions and to the continued improvement of Airline Safety and Pilot Training Action Plan initiatives. Follow up actions include a planned gathering of pilot employee organizations in early 2010 to develop actionable guidelines on professionalism and the transfer of experience.
2 12/31/09
The DOT and FAA will continue to work with all interested parties to address the issues raised by the Colgan 3407 accident and to protect the safety of the traveling public.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
xsbank,
you asked why is there is all the magic? Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to imply that many could not get from A to B without the magic - a baseless argument.
The reason for the magic is that it generally does a better job than the steam. Refinements in the magic have taken out the third position in the flight deck. The magic has allowed more airplanes in a smaller amount of airspace. The magic has saved more lives than it has killed......
The refinements of magic have now spread to every system in an airplane and have created a new way to fly. It may not be flying that meets your arrogant definition but it is flying nonetheless.
Btw, I turned off all the fancy bits the other day and it was quite enjoyable.
JJJ
you asked why is there is all the magic? Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to imply that many could not get from A to B without the magic - a baseless argument.
The reason for the magic is that it generally does a better job than the steam. Refinements in the magic have taken out the third position in the flight deck. The magic has allowed more airplanes in a smaller amount of airspace. The magic has saved more lives than it has killed......
The refinements of magic have now spread to every system in an airplane and have created a new way to fly. It may not be flying that meets your arrogant definition but it is flying nonetheless.
Btw, I turned off all the fancy bits the other day and it was quite enjoyable.
Well said Mustard. Been there - done that - got the t shirt - can/would do it again.Mustard wrote:Actually no offense. I just wanted to jump in on the name calling. I'm accused of not being able to hand fly
an airplane just because I don't fly a little one anymore.
I bet an airbus pilot could fly a beaver from point A to point B before a beaver pilot could fly an airbus
from point A to Point B.
JJJ
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
ALPA safety chief: Basic flying skills eroding (this was a link that didn't work).
CAA Paper 2004/10: Flight Crew Reliance on Automation | Publications | CAA (Likewise).
TC website defeats me - look up the topic yourselves.
JJJ - YOU calling ME arrogant?
Sorry for all the edits -
CAA Paper 2004/10: Flight Crew Reliance on Automation | Publications | CAA (Likewise).
TC website defeats me - look up the topic yourselves.
JJJ - YOU calling ME arrogant?
Sorry for all the edits -
Last edited by xsbank on Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
There are a few occasions where pilots are almost forced into a reliance on automation. Some contributing factors that I have noticed are fatigue and unfamiliarity with the environment.
A pilot that sleeps in his/her own bed every night and operates into the same 10 airports is doesn't experience the extremes of the aforementioned.
The pilot that got a lousy sleep and has hurled themselves 17 hours into a some country for the first time will use automation as a crutch - good idea - I would. It can be difficult to let go of that crutch for some people.
The same people that complain about a pilots reliance on automation are sometimes the same people that bog pilots down in procedure that centre in automation. These same procedures add complexity and increase workload despite the intention to simplify and level down the automation.
jjj
A pilot that sleeps in his/her own bed every night and operates into the same 10 airports is doesn't experience the extremes of the aforementioned.
The pilot that got a lousy sleep and has hurled themselves 17 hours into a some country for the first time will use automation as a crutch - good idea - I would. It can be difficult to let go of that crutch for some people.
The same people that complain about a pilots reliance on automation are sometimes the same people that bog pilots down in procedure that centre in automation. These same procedures add complexity and increase workload despite the intention to simplify and level down the automation.
jjj
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
The only reason for "the magic" is cost. Aircraft are cheaper to build, cheaper to maintain, fly to destination using less fuel and need one less crew-member (remember the flight engineer?). If it was cheaper to use steam that would be the norm. Autothrottles save fuel, FMS is more efficient, IRS too.
As pilots, we should be frightened of the "next gen" aircraft because we will have even less to do in there. When 70% of the accidents (I read that somewhere - is it higher?) are caused by humans, don't you agree that losing the humans will lower the accident rate?
JJJ, I am not arrogant, I am a realist. The more the automation takes over, the more futile it is to resist. If you don't need to tune a VOR or an ADF anymore, why do you think that the ability to push on a rudder will be any more important? Except for the take-off and landing phase, modern aircraft are already flown feet-on-floor. Yes, we still monitor them, its a comfortable place to put your feet after all.
Why can't you see that stick-and-rudder skills will not even be required anymore, let alone practiced in the air?
In my business, we have a disease called "Autothrottle Cripple." Fail the ATS and speed control goes to hell. If the ATS was made to NEVER fail, why would this be an issue? It is still an issue because it does but that will change. Stick and rudder skills will vanish as they no longer are required. They are already less necessary than they were on, say, a 707. If the automation were a bit better, they might not even give you a stick, perhaps just a mouse or a track-ball, or maybe an iPad?
Then they likely won't need you. I certainly don't.
I'm outta here, time to go for a ride before the beer festival tonight!
JJJ, I was to be rude, but I agree with your last post - you did it while I wasn't looking.
As pilots, we should be frightened of the "next gen" aircraft because we will have even less to do in there. When 70% of the accidents (I read that somewhere - is it higher?) are caused by humans, don't you agree that losing the humans will lower the accident rate?
JJJ, I am not arrogant, I am a realist. The more the automation takes over, the more futile it is to resist. If you don't need to tune a VOR or an ADF anymore, why do you think that the ability to push on a rudder will be any more important? Except for the take-off and landing phase, modern aircraft are already flown feet-on-floor. Yes, we still monitor them, its a comfortable place to put your feet after all.
Why can't you see that stick-and-rudder skills will not even be required anymore, let alone practiced in the air?
In my business, we have a disease called "Autothrottle Cripple." Fail the ATS and speed control goes to hell. If the ATS was made to NEVER fail, why would this be an issue? It is still an issue because it does but that will change. Stick and rudder skills will vanish as they no longer are required. They are already less necessary than they were on, say, a 707. If the automation were a bit better, they might not even give you a stick, perhaps just a mouse or a track-ball, or maybe an iPad?
Then they likely won't need you. I certainly don't.
I'm outta here, time to go for a ride before the beer festival tonight!
JJJ, I was to be rude, but I agree with your last post - you did it while I wasn't looking.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
The stick and rudder skills for new gen guys get rusty for things like level offs and speed control w/o auto-throttle. Rusty but not gone for good. Perhaps these pilotos need to be afforded the time and place to keep up a little more.
Perhaps we could find the time for this by reducing some of the silliness that has evolved under the guise of Transport Canada like steep turns in the simulator or a stall sequence where we have to avoid all of the stall q's, or wind shear training after telling a candidate that he's gonna get "wind shear on this one." Wind shear training is good, don't get me wrong - just don't tell me its coming. The manoeuvres that actually require the autopilot to come off become nothing more than sim games.
Why not have a few exercises where we can bang around without any gizmos without the threat of not using an appropriate level of automation?
Why not have a few more exercises that distract a candidate into thinking the exercise is about one thing and then introducing a nice subtle additional failure of something else.
We used to go through Lear training at FlightSafety where they would pile and pile on failures until you broke. They got away from that when the corporate pussies complained about having multiple unrelated failures.
God forbid that an airline would introduce multiple unrelated failures even for the sake of training. Airline training is very good but it could be better for the re currents or upgrades if we had a little more freedom from Transport Canada. It seems silly to be burning sim time while having to pull out a COM to verify that you haven't missed any RVR 600 or RVOP/LVOP requirements as TC monitors a training event.
JJJ
Perhaps we could find the time for this by reducing some of the silliness that has evolved under the guise of Transport Canada like steep turns in the simulator or a stall sequence where we have to avoid all of the stall q's, or wind shear training after telling a candidate that he's gonna get "wind shear on this one." Wind shear training is good, don't get me wrong - just don't tell me its coming. The manoeuvres that actually require the autopilot to come off become nothing more than sim games.
Why not have a few exercises where we can bang around without any gizmos without the threat of not using an appropriate level of automation?
Why not have a few more exercises that distract a candidate into thinking the exercise is about one thing and then introducing a nice subtle additional failure of something else.
We used to go through Lear training at FlightSafety where they would pile and pile on failures until you broke. They got away from that when the corporate pussies complained about having multiple unrelated failures.
God forbid that an airline would introduce multiple unrelated failures even for the sake of training. Airline training is very good but it could be better for the re currents or upgrades if we had a little more freedom from Transport Canada. It seems silly to be burning sim time while having to pull out a COM to verify that you haven't missed any RVR 600 or RVOP/LVOP requirements as TC monitors a training event.
JJJ
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Hey guys just posted this video in its appropriate Turkish 737 thread, but i believe it would also apply to basic Stick & Rudder skill discusion .
http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 3635223001
http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 3635223001
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Just as there's at least two redundancies in each system means there will be two pilots for the same reason. The magic reduces costs and upkeep. You're there to oversee the operation and ensure that it operates in a fashion that's safe for the conditions. When there's failure, the QRH is a signal to clear your head.
A Beaver pilot would struggle with the programming of the glass but I think he would have his feet up rather quickly in a NG, but flying A to B doesn't really prove anything, its getting on the ground at the right "B" that counts.
A Beaver pilot would struggle with the programming of the glass but I think he would have his feet up rather quickly in a NG, but flying A to B doesn't really prove anything, its getting on the ground at the right "B" that counts.
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
70%, in itself, means nothing. You have to compare apples with apples. There are a lot more planes in the sky today than there were when we had F/Es. Aircrafts are, as a whole, much more reliable than they were, thus accounting for a lesser percentage of the accident causes.xsbank wrote: When 70% of the accidents (I read that somewhere - is it higher?) are caused by humans, don't you agree that losing the humans will lower the accident rate?
All in all, I don't think that the human factor is a more important contributing factor. It's just seems that way because other causes are down and the overall flying activity has increased by a greater margin.
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Flying Nutcracker
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Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
70% were caused by human factors, but how many accidents were prevented by human factors???
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
I think there are guys missing the point here -- entirely -- this is not about approaches - landings or leveling off -- it's about recovering from things that many of us will never see in our entire careers -- I think if we all look within ourselves ask and be honest - could you recover from a situation that Air France encountered - myself -- I truly don't know but what I do know is that I'm not properly trained to deal with that and I would be acting entirely on my experience and instincts.
Any one who tells me that the know they are "great" enough to recover (any type) for sure and with no questions or second thoughts from a stall/upset in IMC in turbulence is either the world's biggest fool and should not be flying an airplane or they are the world's biggest fool and should not be airplane an airplane and would be better off flippin burgers.
Any one who tells me that the know they are "great" enough to recover (any type) for sure and with no questions or second thoughts from a stall/upset in IMC in turbulence is either the world's biggest fool and should not be flying an airplane or they are the world's biggest fool and should not be airplane an airplane and would be better off flippin burgers.
Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA
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mel gibson
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Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Good post liquid Charlie .
A lot of accidents seem to be related to
things one does not see everyday, either
weather or mechanical.
Pay attention to your MEL's and weather.
Fly safe
A lot of accidents seem to be related to
things one does not see everyday, either
weather or mechanical.
Pay attention to your MEL's and weather.
Fly safe
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Yes, good post Liquid - you should have come by earlier!
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Boeing boy
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Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
Can anyone see aircraft manufacturers coming up with some sort of computer that deals with wake turbulence too?
Re: Stick & Rudder skills lacking in bigger Jet pilots?
I bet either pilot could fly either aircraft from A to B no problem, my grandmother could do that, but put them in the most unforgiving circumstances that the other might encounter during the critical phases of flight and that will be what separates the wheat from the chaff.Mustard wrote:I bet an airbus pilot could fly a beaver from point A to point B before a beaver pilot could fly an airbus
from point A to Point B.
They are two very different aircraft with very different skill sets required to operate those aircraft, and trying to compare the two is utterly ridiculous.
Apples and oranges fellas...put the d!ck rulers away.
