TCU(towering cumulus) penetration from airlines perspective

[magyar]

I have recently had some disputes over TCU saftey concepts. Once the tops are bubbling over 13000ft people at my work start to get all iffy about flying into them....For all you airline/jet pilots....would you guys fly into a TCU with say a top of about 13000ft, would you enter a hold in a TCU with the same tops? When/at what point do you guys start to divert around these beasts?


I appreciate any feedback
thank you

[flyincanuck]

How much hot coffee and red wine do you want spilled into laps?

Generally that's not really good for customer satisfaction.

Keep in mind you've got co-workers walking around back there trying to do a job.

If you know it's going to be bumpy, try and avoid it.

[slowstream]

We (CRJ900) avoid them and I would never accept a hold that put me in one

[into the blue]

In case of TCUs, cloud tops are not as important as the height difference between the top and the base. For instance, during relatively dry summer days in southern BC, over the mountains, it's not uncommon to have a pretty harmless CU with bases around 080-090 and tops at 130-140. However, I don't know exactly at what amount of "vertical development" a CU becomes a TCU.

[loopa]

I have also always wondered this. In 2007 I was on a transat A330 flight to Cancun and we were penetrating TCU's all over the place, and they weren't bumpy what so ever. Do you guys perhaps use the weather radar to determine how much precip there is before you penetrate a TCU?

Thanks!

[pika]

Short answer is avoid.

Have a look here for reasons why.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56087&hilit=pprune

[ditar]

When it comes to clouds with significant vertical development, my rule is I'd rather waste time and fuel going around them than lose my wings going through them.

[jjj]

To second a post from above.

Although a little TCU isn't inherently dangerous, it isn't difficult to avoid. Even the little ones are worth going around for the sake of protecting the FAs in the back who are on their feet. When balancing trays/bags/etc.. it doesn't take much to knock someone off balance.

Most of my deviations are for the benifit of my FAs. Communicate intentions clearly and concisely with ATC and enjoy a gentle slalom around the buildups.

JJJ

[yycflyguy]

What a bunch of pussies! Slam right on through em and show Mother Nature you aint her bitch.

[flyincanuck]

Post of the night! ^

Off to start the drinking now so I can be on his level!

[Severe Clear]

Forget the TCU's....

These guys got it all figured out!

http://www.convectionconnection.net/

[Slappy the Squirrel]

My question would be why would you fly through a TCU if you can just fly around it? If you have to go through it, then fine, but why make a choice to get all rattled up if you don't have to. Plus remember that TCU might be a t-storm in mere minutes.

Heck, if given the choice I'll skip around even a baby cumulus.

[C-FABH]

What a bunch of pussies! Slam right on through em and show Mother Nature you aint her bitch.

Didn't I meet you once, flying for Air France??

Sorry, too soon...

[Morav]

"Certainly there is no shortage of energy in the world above our heads. One thunderstorm, it has been calculated, can contain an amount of energy equivalent to four days' use of electricity for the whole of United States." -Bill Bryson

[The Old Fogducker]

From time to time I used with someone who drove me crazy ... and the weird thing was, I could see a problem starting to build 5 minutes before it came to a head ... as if I were having an out of body experience, but was powerless to stop the event from unfolding.

When he was designated Captain, he used to slam through boiling TCUs that would fill your windshield from 10 miles back and think it was just a normal part of flying to be bouncing around with gravel lifting off the floor and anything not tied down would float as if we were weightless in orbit or flying "The Vomit Comet" for astronaut training ... because you were cleared to a spot down a track to a navaid, and dammit, that's exactly what we were going to do. He thought I was incompetent for going around them, and actually reported me to the Chief Pilot once for doing so ... because I had violated the clearance. That happened even with permission to deviate as necessary.

His idea of passenger comfort was reaching over, and turning on the "Fasten Seat Belt" sign.

Stay out of them.

The Old Fogducker

[Pratt X 3]

No matter how well the flight went, no matter how much time you made up, it will all disappear just by flying through that one puffy cloud they weren't expecting which made them scream like a little girl and spill their coffee on their expensive suit.

[CBSW]

I'm new to the world of flight levels and IFR and the light to meduim weight turboprop world.

However...


Here's what I've observed..

Even a storm topped to 12,000 can throw a good ammount lightening and hail and cause you to pick up a healthy ammount of ice ..FAST. (I've seen it) If a TCU is that isolated.. why not avoid it?

Also, what about the stress imposed on the airframe of the aircraft? How do you know for certain how much ice you'll pack on in that cell and at what catch rate? Will the distribution of ice be uniform across the critical surfaces (doubt it) What if we were to have something else go wrong? Do we really want to add extra complexity to what would have been a normal uneventful approach? And if something DOES go wrong.. we have now added extra complexity to the situation..

just my .02

[groundtoflightdeck]

I haven't seen anything that tops less than 18,000 giving any sort of TSRA type stuff. 18,000 and under just pump through otherwise you are going to throw a wrench into ATC's plan and your own profile. The FAs should be in pick up and they can hold on for the 30 seconds you're in it. The thing is some are good some are bad, sometimes when you are penetrating a line you go through ones topping FL250. Its just a matter of experience to know whats safe and whats not. If you start dodging ones in the teens you'll end up all over the place for very little turbulence avoidance. Its all bumpy down low. Thats the medium sized jet persepective.

[crooked timber]

if the bosses are in the back, i'm going to do whatever i can to provide them with the most comfortable fight possible (happy endings notwithstanding). moreover, i want to get my money' worth out of those navcanada fees.

[photoplane1]

I don't fly jets but in the three year period of chasing storms with a Cessna for a film about flying and thunderstorms, I have observed pre-dawn lightning from cu topping out at only 12,000 feet. (Bases were 4000 AGL.) These were not necessarily adjacent to thunderstorms but they were in a highly unstable atmosphere. We all know that lightning suggests there's great potential for an exciting ride in any size aircraft. I would say the answer to the punch-no punch question at 13,000 should be derived from the air mass in question. Is the source of lift simply solar insolation or are there other lifting factors at work as well? A fair weather cu at 13,000 verses a rising cu at the same level in the warm sector of a low pressure area will be two very different animals.

[magyar]

Okay so starting this thread i had quite a different perspective up until last weekend. Quick answer, is don't mess around with TCU's, Mother-nature is POWERFUL. now for some more detailed information on my weekend TCU experiences;

Tops of the TCU seemed not to be greater than 14000ft BUT nevertheless it was still pretty intense when they were penetrated in a small Cessna. In climb attitude there were some prety sharp snap banks due to the turbulence. In the descents pretty much the same but it was a bit more severe at times with some major power reduction required at some points to stay out of the yellow arc. In both circumstances the turbulence was so server at times it caused some definite brief disorientation while in IMC and referencing the pitch and bank attitudes. Finally, there were a couple of times in the descent where i was PRAYING just to get out of the TCU because it felt like the plane was going to rip apart beacuse of the turbulence and at the same time it like i said was a bit disorienting.

there ya go folks some first hand experience....p.s. passengers will be scared so like people said in the thread it is wise to avoid for safety and passenger comfort, besides.. when you climb above the TCU you will see that they are indeed quite isolated and easy to maneuver around.

p.s.s. The youtube video with the T-28 flying through a TCU does not do justice to what one may experience in severity FIRST HAND.

oh yeah, and the information in the bottom right hand corner of a GFA is there to serve as a reminder

[2R]

What a bunch of pussies! Slam right on through em and show Mother Nature you aint her bitch.

The airplane in question was renamed from the owners friend to a more appropriate name.
Named after Roman feasting " The Vomitarium"

[bmc]

Easyjet got caught in some hail back in 2003. Read this and check out the pictures:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/9937 ... -hail.html

http://www.airliners.net/photo/402670/L/

http://www.airliners.net/photo/402669/L/

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/hb-iii/photo.shtml

[Sulako]

..18,000 and under just pump through otherwise you are going to throw a wrench into ATC's plan and your own profile....If you start dodging ones in the teens you'll end up all over the place for very little turbulence avoidance.

I strongly disagree with the above quotes.

If there's weather ahead, I couldn't care less what ATC's plan is for me - my plan is to not get my tail twisted, and to keep my passenger's flight experience an unremarkable one. I'll do what I have to do to avoid TCUs, and ATC can do what they have to do to keep separation between us and other aircraft. Of course I have the highest respect for ATC and the job they do, but some ATC stations don't have radar that depicts bad weather very well, so they might not understand the full extent of the weather situation. Bottom line: I'd never even consider flying through bad weather just to accommodate ATC - it's my ass in the front seat, not theirs.

[Expat]

Go straight to the point early turbulences, then turn right. Watch the airspeed build up, and go around. You do not lose any time that way...