http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le1600070/
Before I go any further, I should say thanks to 'skyhunter' for the pm a while back on this subject.
Anyway. While I am generally supportive of the conservative government I have to say this sole-source approach simply stinks.
The idea that the F-35 and only the F-35 will lead to industrial benefits for Canada seems crazy. Access for domestic industry has been the norm in large military procurements for ages. Just because the supplier changes from Lockheed to Boeing, say, or Eurofighter, doesn't mean Canadian industry doesn't get a slice of the pie. Am I crazy here?
A quick google on the subject will provide overwhelming evidence that we are planning to spend huge sums on an aircraft whose advantage, even the manufacturer agrees, lies in its stealth. An advantage that sounds like it might not be all its cracked up to be, even before the part where we find out we get the nerfed version to protect sensitive technologies. What one commentator likened to flying the 'manned decoy'.
I don't want to side with the Cassandras in the blogosphere who are predicting the end of western air dominance, I do think that Lockheed will in the end deliver an impressively capable machine; but for the price involved Canada should sure as hell be considering all the options available.
If the F-35 is so great it should win a competition hands down, and if it doesn't, we shouldn't buy it. Period.
ef
Here Comes the F-35
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'effin hippie
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
The problem is that having a competition takes years. Sole-sourcing is way shorter.'effin hippie wrote: If the F-35 is so great it should win a competition hands down, and if it doesn't, we shouldn't buy it. Period.
ef
The F-35 has more than stealth over its main competitor, the Super Hornet.
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Here Comes the F-35
Just an opinion piece but according to many it nails point right on the head.
A new weapon in the air
National Post · Saturday, Jun. 12, 2010
The first delivery of Canada's current fighter jets, the CF-18 Hornets, took place more than 25 years ago. The time has come to replace them. Toward this end, Canada now seems set on buying 65 American-built F-35 Lightning II fighters, in the largest military acquisition deal in our history -- for $16-billion, including 20 years of maintenance and support.
That's a lot of money at a time where there's not a lot of money to be had, so some sticker shock is understandable. But Canadians must understand that this is a once-in-a-generation purchase. And letting our air force simply rust away isn't an option: Without state-of-the-art combat aircraft, Canada simply cannot remain relevant as a military power that can project force overseas.
The F-35 isn't quite as impressive as the F-22 Raptor (which the Americans chose to build for their own exclusive use). But it is a multi-purpose aircraft that can perform all the essential functions required from our combat planes: ground attack, interception and air superiority. Unlike the United States, Canada does not have the option of maintaining varied fleets of combat aircraft to perform different functions:
We need one plane that can do it all.
Some have critiqued the F-35's maneouvering capabilities, and questioned whether its internal weapons bay can hold enough firepower (it can carry extra missiles on its wings, but that will reduce its stealth). These are valid concerns: As with all combat aircraft, the design of the F-35 is the product of compromise.
It is important to remember, however, that the Americans are committed to the craft, and are throwing huge resources at it. This means that any early problems that arise are likely to be solved with design fixes and retrofits. The F-35 is going to serve the U.S. Air Force and Navy in large numbers, and will also equip America's close allies, meaning that allied air forces the world over will be operating compatible aircraft. Canada already has contributed half-a-billion dollars to the design of the plane; and if it orders soon, it will receive some of the first to come off the assembly line, likely in 2017, just as our current Hornet fleet will be reaching the end of its service life.
Several other aircraft have been offered up as possible contenders for the next Canadian fighter, namely the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Both are excellent aircraft, but they represent the very best of the last generation of aircraft. The F-35 would bring Canada's air force to the very front of the pack technologically.
While some may be put off by the optics of the Canadian government sole-sourcing such a large contract -- bypassing a normal competitive bidding process and directly selecting the F-35 -- the move is defensible: The Super Hornet and Typhoon simply cannot deliver the stealth capability that the government has decreed to be a vital criterion for the next Canadian combat aircraft. The F-35 can.
More broadly, some analysts have suggested that the era of manned military flight is over -- or at least nearly over -- and that lower-cost remotely controlled drones, capable of manoeuvres that would crush a fragile human pilot, are the way of the future.
The utility of drones for military operations is unquestionable (as the Americans now are demonstrating in Pakistan), and the day may indeed come when robots fight our wars for us -- on air, land and sea alike. But that day is not yet here. A drone must either be controlled by a pilot operating at a remote location vulnerable to radio jamming, thus rendering the drone useless, or must control itself, through its own internal software. Despite exciting breakthroughs in computing, we are years away from being able to safely entrust our most powerful offensive weapons to a computer program. For the foreseeable future, the pilot remains the critical component of any air combat system.
In this regard, the F-35 is the right choice. Canadians should rest assured that our pilots will be getting the best plane available. The government should proceed with the purchase without delay.
.
Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/wea ... z0qenDaZkx
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A new weapon in the air
National Post · Saturday, Jun. 12, 2010
The first delivery of Canada's current fighter jets, the CF-18 Hornets, took place more than 25 years ago. The time has come to replace them. Toward this end, Canada now seems set on buying 65 American-built F-35 Lightning II fighters, in the largest military acquisition deal in our history -- for $16-billion, including 20 years of maintenance and support.
That's a lot of money at a time where there's not a lot of money to be had, so some sticker shock is understandable. But Canadians must understand that this is a once-in-a-generation purchase. And letting our air force simply rust away isn't an option: Without state-of-the-art combat aircraft, Canada simply cannot remain relevant as a military power that can project force overseas.
The F-35 isn't quite as impressive as the F-22 Raptor (which the Americans chose to build for their own exclusive use). But it is a multi-purpose aircraft that can perform all the essential functions required from our combat planes: ground attack, interception and air superiority. Unlike the United States, Canada does not have the option of maintaining varied fleets of combat aircraft to perform different functions:
We need one plane that can do it all.
Some have critiqued the F-35's maneouvering capabilities, and questioned whether its internal weapons bay can hold enough firepower (it can carry extra missiles on its wings, but that will reduce its stealth). These are valid concerns: As with all combat aircraft, the design of the F-35 is the product of compromise.
It is important to remember, however, that the Americans are committed to the craft, and are throwing huge resources at it. This means that any early problems that arise are likely to be solved with design fixes and retrofits. The F-35 is going to serve the U.S. Air Force and Navy in large numbers, and will also equip America's close allies, meaning that allied air forces the world over will be operating compatible aircraft. Canada already has contributed half-a-billion dollars to the design of the plane; and if it orders soon, it will receive some of the first to come off the assembly line, likely in 2017, just as our current Hornet fleet will be reaching the end of its service life.
Several other aircraft have been offered up as possible contenders for the next Canadian fighter, namely the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Both are excellent aircraft, but they represent the very best of the last generation of aircraft. The F-35 would bring Canada's air force to the very front of the pack technologically.
While some may be put off by the optics of the Canadian government sole-sourcing such a large contract -- bypassing a normal competitive bidding process and directly selecting the F-35 -- the move is defensible: The Super Hornet and Typhoon simply cannot deliver the stealth capability that the government has decreed to be a vital criterion for the next Canadian combat aircraft. The F-35 can.
More broadly, some analysts have suggested that the era of manned military flight is over -- or at least nearly over -- and that lower-cost remotely controlled drones, capable of manoeuvres that would crush a fragile human pilot, are the way of the future.
The utility of drones for military operations is unquestionable (as the Americans now are demonstrating in Pakistan), and the day may indeed come when robots fight our wars for us -- on air, land and sea alike. But that day is not yet here. A drone must either be controlled by a pilot operating at a remote location vulnerable to radio jamming, thus rendering the drone useless, or must control itself, through its own internal software. Despite exciting breakthroughs in computing, we are years away from being able to safely entrust our most powerful offensive weapons to a computer program. For the foreseeable future, the pilot remains the critical component of any air combat system.
In this regard, the F-35 is the right choice. Canadians should rest assured that our pilots will be getting the best plane available. The government should proceed with the purchase without delay.
.
Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/wea ... z0qenDaZkx
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eightzeroummmseven
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
Why do we need to project power abroad? We aren't an aggressor nation. We should be investing in defensive fighters. Stealth aircraft aren't needed for that.
Re: Here Comes the F-35
The pilot in me says "ooohhh shiny lets by fighters" but I think the money would be better spent buying better armored vehicles and helicopters to support the boots on the ground. All the hornets have been doing for the last decade is intercepting airliners and ultralights. I'm all for spending on equipment to support the military, but if we only have one dollar, lets give it to the army, they're the ones we keep sending to the front lines.
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
Let me say - I'm all for re-vamping the Canadian Forces....................But - I don't think we need this Stealth fighter. The cost for me is the biggest thing. It has balloned almost 150% since the program started, and by the time the planes are ready for delivery - the cost is estimated at $115 million per copy!!! 
You could buy 2 1/2 super hornets for that price.
The other things wrong here are they are a single engine plane. Even with turbine reliability - failures still happen. Probably not much to worry about if you have say 400 planes - but 65??? We bought 125 F-18's 25 years ago and we are down to 80 or so now. Where will we be in 25 years of F-35's? 65 is barely enough from the start.
We don't need stealth - any conflict we get into there will be many other nations involved - they can do the stealth missions. I think for a small economy country like Canada that does mainly peackeeping - Quantity should take a higher priority to "Gucci" options.
You could buy 2 1/2 super hornets for that price.
The other things wrong here are they are a single engine plane. Even with turbine reliability - failures still happen. Probably not much to worry about if you have say 400 planes - but 65??? We bought 125 F-18's 25 years ago and we are down to 80 or so now. Where will we be in 25 years of F-35's? 65 is barely enough from the start.
We don't need stealth - any conflict we get into there will be many other nations involved - they can do the stealth missions. I think for a small economy country like Canada that does mainly peackeeping - Quantity should take a higher priority to "Gucci" options.
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'effin hippie
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
Maple, that article is the precise set of assertions that concern me, and it is most definitely an opinion piece.
The conservative government is making a 'don't rock the boat' argument for remaining involved, essentially committing to the F-35 as much for political and economic reasons as military.
I haven't heard a damn thing from the guys on the pointy end regarding what the Air Command actually wants, although 'anything, as long as its new' might be the gist.
As for stealth, yes, sure, the F-35 is stealthy, but not that stealthy to start with, will spend most of its service life in an environment where potential threats have been engineered for 2 or more decades to defeat stealth, and as a bonus will have the most advanced aspects of its low-observable technology withheld to safeguard US secrecy.
There is more to current fighter design than stealth, including but not limited to advanced electronic warfare suites, datalinks, and radars; helmet mounted weapons cuing; and unprecedented power to weight and agility. All of which are most certainly available in other designs.
If we are committing to 20 plus years of operating an A/C, surely we can spend a fraction of that time at the beginning making sure we're making the right decision. So far I see this being politically driven, if the Air Force guys stand up and say 'this is the machine, no question, just get it going' then I'll shut up. But I don't buy for a second that this is the only thing that can do the job for Canada.
ef
The conservative government is making a 'don't rock the boat' argument for remaining involved, essentially committing to the F-35 as much for political and economic reasons as military.
I haven't heard a damn thing from the guys on the pointy end regarding what the Air Command actually wants, although 'anything, as long as its new' might be the gist.
As for stealth, yes, sure, the F-35 is stealthy, but not that stealthy to start with, will spend most of its service life in an environment where potential threats have been engineered for 2 or more decades to defeat stealth, and as a bonus will have the most advanced aspects of its low-observable technology withheld to safeguard US secrecy.
There is more to current fighter design than stealth, including but not limited to advanced electronic warfare suites, datalinks, and radars; helmet mounted weapons cuing; and unprecedented power to weight and agility. All of which are most certainly available in other designs.
If we are committing to 20 plus years of operating an A/C, surely we can spend a fraction of that time at the beginning making sure we're making the right decision. So far I see this being politically driven, if the Air Force guys stand up and say 'this is the machine, no question, just get it going' then I'll shut up. But I don't buy for a second that this is the only thing that can do the job for Canada.
ef
Re: Here Comes the F-35
effin' hippie:
I had doubts as well, mainly because of the single engine problem. However, some much much more experienced pilots than me told me the JSF is the way to go. They were/are intimately involved in the process and know much more than any of us on this board.
I had doubts as well, mainly because of the single engine problem. However, some much much more experienced pilots than me told me the JSF is the way to go. They were/are intimately involved in the process and know much more than any of us on this board.
Going for the deck at corner
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eightzeroummmseven
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
Ooohh I wouldn't say single engine too loud around here.
Re: Here Comes the F-35
If/when we get the JSF, we will be Single Engine AND Single Pilot IFR. Apprently we're all going to crash and die.eightzeroummmseven wrote:Ooohh I wouldn't say single engine too loud around here.
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Here Comes the F-35
Here's another report against the F-35 in general.
May be we should look at the Russian PAK.
http://gizmodo.com/5561408/gajillion+do ... shoot-downLockheed Martin, makers of the Joint Strike Fighter, has been under huge pressure to stabilize the jet's skyrocketing costs. Production prices have nearly doubled on what was supposed to be an "affordable" fighter. R&D money is up another 40 percent. Some analysts predict the program could run as much as $388 billion for 2,400 jets.
So Lockheed decided "to trim 11 pounds and $1.4 million from each aircraft by removing shutoff valves for engine coolant and hydraulic lines and five of six dry bay fire-suppression systems," according to InsideDefense.com.
May be we should look at the Russian PAK.
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oldncold
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
ive said this ad nauseam //we canadains sit on the biggest pile of natural resources know to civilized world.
With the usa running a 13TRILLION national debt and going up by 5 billion A DAY , the time is not to far off that we will no longer have the luxury of living under the usa defense umbrella .
ergo we need to spend alot more than 65 fighters, more like 250 f35's n f22' if we truly wish to be a free nation with the teeth to back up the rehtoric of strong n free. as we move into the later part of this century . . china holds most of the usa debt and needs resouces and the developing world need them too. So lets no fail those who fell in previous conflicts into which canadians soldiers airmen and sailors did so with outdated equipment
With the usa running a 13TRILLION national debt and going up by 5 billion A DAY , the time is not to far off that we will no longer have the luxury of living under the usa defense umbrella .
ergo we need to spend alot more than 65 fighters, more like 250 f35's n f22' if we truly wish to be a free nation with the teeth to back up the rehtoric of strong n free. as we move into the later part of this century . . china holds most of the usa debt and needs resouces and the developing world need them too. So lets no fail those who fell in previous conflicts into which canadians soldiers airmen and sailors did so with outdated equipment
Re: Here Comes the F-35
Personally I dont think we should buy a plane that John Mcclane can take out with a piece of cement
http://movies.ign.com/dor/objects/49151 ... 62007.html
http://movies.ign.com/dor/objects/49151 ... 62007.html
Re: Here Comes the F-35
Very true, a F22 has two engines so a single piece of concrete couldn't have taken it out. No doubt the ruskies are already producing concrete launchers in anticipation of our F35 purchase!
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
F 35 it looks likes an effective brown people killer. Living in there mud huts riding there donkeys......
Or chasing down that c172 that violated toronto airspace.....
Or chasing down that c172 that violated toronto airspace.....
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eightzeroummmseven
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
oldncold wrote:ive said this ad nauseam //we canadains sit on the biggest pile of natural resources know to civilized world.
With the usa running a 13TRILLION national debt and going up by 5 billion A DAY , the time is not to far off that we will no longer have the luxury of living under the usa defense umbrella .
ergo we need to spend alot more than 65 fighters, more like 250 f35's n f22' if we truly wish to be a free nation with the teeth to back up the rehtoric of strong n free. as we move into the later part of this century . . china holds most of the usa debt and needs resouces and the developing world need them too. So lets no fail those who fell in previous conflicts into which canadians soldiers airmen and sailors did so with outdated equipment
oldncold,
But do you feel it's important for us to pay the extra cash for a stealth aircraft if it will be used in a defensive role?
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oldncold
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
defensive role umm? any fighter pilot worth their salt will tell you, and so will most hockey coaches that a strong offense is the best defense. however in this case having the best offensive tools will help mitigate the damage the population will have to endure in the defense of it home turf.
finally cost > lets not go there shall we for if we took all the billions pissed away on useless social programs that have not changed human nature one iota and wasted billiions on penalty for cancalled contracts for we would have the funds to by 500 new aircraft and ships . this country better get its collective head out of its behind. the world wants canada resources and at some price point they won't want to pay for them .if you are any thoughtful person about history or geo politics wars have started for a heck of alot less reasons.
The prevention of such conflicts was because those that wished to conquer were stopped or gave pause to the fact that they would get their butt kicked and then be subjucated themselves.
is the f35 the end all be all No but it is an important part of the overall tool kit in defense of our country. the biggest problem that us canucks have, is the endless debates over decades which result in hundreds of millions$$ sometimes billions wasted on process but no results that really matter. go in peace but lets buy the best kit for those we ask to be on the pointy end of the spear. eh! and in this lifetime not another 2generations down the road.
finally cost > lets not go there shall we for if we took all the billions pissed away on useless social programs that have not changed human nature one iota and wasted billiions on penalty for cancalled contracts for we would have the funds to by 500 new aircraft and ships . this country better get its collective head out of its behind. the world wants canada resources and at some price point they won't want to pay for them .if you are any thoughtful person about history or geo politics wars have started for a heck of alot less reasons.
The prevention of such conflicts was because those that wished to conquer were stopped or gave pause to the fact that they would get their butt kicked and then be subjucated themselves.
is the f35 the end all be all No but it is an important part of the overall tool kit in defense of our country. the biggest problem that us canucks have, is the endless debates over decades which result in hundreds of millions$$ sometimes billions wasted on process but no results that really matter. go in peace but lets buy the best kit for those we ask to be on the pointy end of the spear. eh! and in this lifetime not another 2generations down the road.
Re: Here Comes the F-35
America won the cold war by spending the russians in to ground. That war ended 20yrs ago. And america is piss broke. Where spending billions on war machines to kill people with stick and stones. Whats wrong with picture.
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
I say we get rid of the pilots and use some of these bad boys!
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
Instead of asking the government "why are you buying the F 35" you should ask "Why do we have a Military and what do we want it to do" . Untill you do that how can you have a rational conversation on what fighter to buy ?
The Canadian government has not been able to articulate a rational coherent policy on the role of our military since the cold war. The only extant document that attempts to address this issue is the "white paper on defense" still in force.....and written in 1994......
The Canadian government has not been able to articulate a rational coherent policy on the role of our military since the cold war. The only extant document that attempts to address this issue is the "white paper on defense" still in force.....and written in 1994......
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Old fella
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
We are spending umteem billions on these things because the Americans told us we had to..... and further more, you have to buy from us(Americans) and don't dare talk another country's aerospace producer because that will make us(Americans) mad with you. Canada, you have been warned, now tow the line.....
Re: Here Comes the F-35
Utter and complete BSOld fella wrote:We are spending umteem billions on these things because the Americans told us we had to..
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The Hammer
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
65 F-35's should protect Alberta's Oil for awhile but I don't know what the rest of you guys are going to do. BC can gettem stoned and MB can maybe give'm TB.
PS Super Hornet is based on a 40 year old design, sorta like putting a hemi and navigation computer in a Ford Pinto and calling it "NEW"....."your turn is coming in 500 feet"
PS Super Hornet is based on a 40 year old design, sorta like putting a hemi and navigation computer in a Ford Pinto and calling it "NEW"....."your turn is coming in 500 feet"
Re: Here Comes the F-35
You are aware we have 79 Hornets right now and some of them are used for training? If we contract flight training on the JSF, we would have a greater capability than we have now.The Hammer wrote:65 F-35's should protect Alberta's Oil for awhile but I don't know what the rest of you guys are going to do. BC can gettem stoned and MB can maybe give'm TB.
PS Super Hornet is based on a 40 year old design, sorta like putting a hemi and navigation computer in a Ford Pinto and calling it "NEW"....."your turn is coming in 500 feet"
As far as buying the SH, my analogy would be that were are buying a 2010 Ford F150, vice a 1983 Ford F150. Similar design, totally different plane.
However, the price of a SH is not as low as some tend to think here.
Going for the deck at corner
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Old fella
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Re: Here Comes the F-35
The declining super power still has it's grip and won't let go...........SAR_YQQ wrote:Utter and complete BSOld fella wrote:We are spending umteem billions on these things because the Americans told us we had to..
