Whoop whoop, pull up.

[righthandman]

Being a Pilot is one of the few professions where one has to continually prove themselves throughout their careers. We need to prove our competency every six months to a year in most cases (on top of having to verify our state of health). We can lose the privilege of earning our very livelihood more frequently than in any other career I would say. Doctors unless they are accused of some malpractice for example, simply bury there mistakes. The same can be said of most other chosen fields (I believe?).

I HATE being evaluated in general. So I suppose I can say... "Boy did I ever pick the wrong occupation"! I understand the need for testing to initially obtain any license however this never ending need to constantly prove oneself for the reissue/renewal of various ratings (PPC, IFR, instructor, Type Ratings etc.) gets a bit nerve racking and/or tiresome, don't you think?

[OceansEdge]

It's even worse if you're a dispatcher

I fully support the idea of annual competency checks - I just wished they were conducted by a DISPATCHER

Pilots - some, even most, have some idea what we do, some even have a great deal of respect for it, but few of them really understand that it is different. So having a pilot do your comp check is frustrating. I mean you really wouldn't want a dispatcher doing your ride would you?

[Meatservo]

Personally , I am glad as a member of the traveling public, that you guys are evaluated on a regular basis. I think they should go back to having real impartial examiners do the rides instead of company designated evaluators.

[Hawkerflyer]

Now that the CBAA is out I understand that Transport Canada will bring back the PPC for 604 ops.

[ditar]

Personally , I am glad as a member of the traveling public, that you guys are evaluated on a regular basis. I think they should go back to having real impartial examiners do the rides instead of company designated evaluators.

I tend to agree. I don't mind being tested regularly. In fact, I kind of look forward to it. The recurrent training gives me opportunity to practice things that I normally never have to do. I also think the elimination of the 2 year PPC is a good thing.

[teacher]

Recurrent 705 ops are a total and complete waste of time. Training to a standard and LOFT are the way to go. Actually learning something and training will make you a much better pilot than a damn 1 1/2 hour ride that proves nothing other than how well you can compose yourself in a flight test situation. Everybody knows that most pilots do stuff on a ride they would never do in real life, even in a real emergency. Spend that hour and a half and do something actually useful.

[sideslip]

I agree with teacher. You learn way more with training to standard and LOFT than a ride with your licence on the line.

[ditar]

I agree with teacher. You learn way more with training to standard and LOFT than a ride with your licence on the line.

I agree that emphasis should definitely be put on training to standard. The way I see it, the point of the ride is not to learn anything new, it's to demonstrate proficiency in what you already know. Once trained to standard, there shouldn't be any problem passing the ride. If someone falls apart under the stress of their license on the line how will they fare under the stress of a real emergency when their life may be on the line?

[ZBBYLW]

While training to standard should be the focus, the problem is alot of CCP's FTE's etc... Can be very easy on people, I just did a PPC ride this morning actually and the examiner was fair, but tough. This is how every ride should be, if you can not pass a ride like this you should be givin 1 (i repeat only 1) attempt at a re-ride. If you can not pass it on the second attempt, just like a written exam you should take some "time off" untill you can get things sorted out.

[teacher]

I know a lot of guys who would rather have an engine fire than a PPC ride. The way you perform on a ride rarely demonstrates how you will perform in the real deal. The reason? Second guessing everything you do.

Initial PPC than a second for good measure than LOFT every 6 months and trainers as well as yearly line checks are MORE than enough to ensure a pilot is proficient. The recurrent rides prove nothing. However doing 5 V1 cuts in a row proves that you can do it and do it well instead of doing 1 being watched by a dude with a clip board. You don't see doctors being retested every 6 months but they instead do lots of recurrent type training.

[It_doesnt_matter]

Well said Teacher.

[Meatservo]

Here we go comparing ourselves to doctors again. I agree there should be LOFT and training to a standard. AND RIDES. If you can't pass the ride, get out and make room for someone who can. If PPCs were conducted with uniform standards by impartial evaluators who have no business interest in the company (in other words NOT a company management employee) then they would weed out the weak as they are supposed to. As long as aeroplanes are still being controlled by humans (not for much longer I'm given to understand) those humans need to be evaluated and held to a higher standard than being given the benefit of the doubt by one of their peers during a LOFT session. Things are touchy-feely enough as it is without doing away with evaluation. I personally think more people should be failing and sent packing.

Really, I look forward to a flight test: it's the one flight after which there isn't a filthy cabin to clean up and crap to unload.

[railroad]

I worked in the patch with a welder. At the end of everyday, all his welds were X-rayed. There was no touchy feely crap. The next morning you showed up on site, and any welds that failed, had a ribbon and you (or somebody else) had to fix it. The job needed to be done right, no exceptions. Every weld, every time. Pretty simple.

[Snagmaster E]

Do the rides, they're a necessary evil. A refresher if you will. I agree, LOFT and all that is great, but rides aren't useless. Just do them and get them over with.

[x-wind]

I also look forward to rides, to an extent, because I come prepared and enjoy demonstrating my skill and knowledge. Indirectly its because I'm proud of what I do and how I do it. Furthermore, I completely agree that those whom conduct the ride should be unbiased/unrelated persons vice company check pilots. The big picture of it for me: self regulation just doesn't work in most cases.

This is a subjective discussion. Perhaps someone whose been flying for 25 years and is now on a Boeing or Airbus can objectively say its unnecessary and overly stressful for them to endure a consequential ride after ride every 6 months. But, there shouldn't be a sweeping statement saying we've to take away re-currency rides.

Teacher:
Rather have an engine FIRE then a PPC ride? You lost a lot of credibility, in my eyes, when you said this. Were you exaggerating or do you know a lot of pilots who would prefer an engine fire to a PPC ride?

Do we not have biannual, annual and out of phase training to do in addition to proving proficiency?

[OceansEdge]

..... Furthermore, I completely agree that those whom conduct the ride should be unbiased/unrelated persons vice company check pilots. The big picture of it for me: self regulation just doesn't work in most cases. ...

I don't know - in my experience - both as a chief dispatcher, and a company check dispatcher, and in discussion with company check ride captains, at least in this instance it does work. I don't know maybe it doesn't at smaller outfits where the check ride captain, chief pilot and DFO are all the same guy. But by and large whether or not Transport had even mentioned it in my monitor - I would have taken the perception of bias very seriously. Yeah there were times when my life personally and professionally would have been easier if I had passed a guy, but I didn't - because he wasn't ready. Having a pilot or dispatcher online who doesn't meet the standard is buying more trouble than any sensible manager or check ride captain/dispatcher ever wants. (In the end we went back and reexamined our training programme to figure out why a guy who wasn't ready got recommended for a check and made very appropriate changes to our programme)

.....
This is a subjective discussion. Perhaps someone whose been flying for 25 years and is now on a Boeing or Airbus can objectively say its unnecessary and overly stressful for them to endure a consequential ride after ride every 6 months. But, there shouldn't be a sweeping statement saying we've to take away re-currency rides.

Hurmmmmm maybe they're the guys who need it most - as a guard against complacency? *shrug*

[Brantford Beech Boy]

... Furthermore, I completely agree that those whom conduct the ride should be unbiased/unrelated persons vice company check pilots. The big picture of it for me: self regulation just doesn't work in most cases.

First and foremost, there are no more Company Check Pilots (CCP). We are all now Approved Check Pilots (ACP). There is a difference.
Also, in the capacity of ACP, we cease to be company employees and become delegates for, and responsible to the minister.

If PPCs were conducted with uniform standards by impartial evaluators who have no business interest in the company (in other words NOT a company management employee) then they would weed out the weak as they are supposed to.

Not sure about the companies you gentlemen work for but most of our ACPs are non-managment, line guys with no business interest in the company except to ensure our paychecks arrive in a steady and continuous manner.

and I take exception to you're calling out of my (our) professionalism with respect to maintaining impartiality and the application of uniform standards.


Walk a mile in the shoes before you start making such statements.

BBB

[teacher]

Just to clarify I'm talking about recurrent PPCs at the 705 level every 6 months as that is what I’m exposed to these days.

The fact that folks think that you "just have to get them over with" proves the fact that they are useless. Nothing is gained except for completing a list of things, checking off some boxes and sending it to transport. Nothing is learned and no skills are improved no better a pilot are we after one is completed. Extra trainers will always improve the skill of a pilot and a good examiner/instructor can spot problems during trainers. You don't need a ride to prove that you need extra work, screw up, press pause, rewind, go back do it again get some "training" and get better at it. When I was instructing I didn't need a "check ride" to tell when my students needed more work and practice. If you can't do it within the allotted training time than something is the matter. A pilot who is not “trainable” is one that has a problem not one that fails a ride.

LOFTS are amazing and expose us to things you may NEVER see on line and if you did you wouldn't have a WTF moment and be better prepared to deal with the emergency. LOFTS and trainers however are only as good (taken seriously) as the pilots who are participating. TC should have the right to do spot checks and make sure that the programs are running properly.

As for the "engine fire" remark it was a little tongue in cheek however for some the stress of a PPC is brutal to the point that they WOULD operate the aircraft better in a real emergency than during one that is being graded.

*off topic rant*

Why so annoyed about the doctor comparison? The only difference between a doctor and a pilot is the amount of school they have to do. Clerkship and residency is just like working the dock up to being an FO except they get paid half decent for it and they control their salaries by limiting licenses issued. My monthly responsibility for lives ratio far exceeds any doctor. I am friends with many doctors and other health care providers who make WAY more than I do and do NO RECURRENT TESTING but do plenty of recurrent TRAINING. Being a doctor is no magic nor is it that special. You just have to be willing to spend years in school making nothing in a cut throat system and fight to get the spot you want in residency. Sounds vaguely familiar doesn’t it.

[Expat]

Here we go comparing ourselves to doctors again. I agree there should be LOFT and training to a standard. AND RIDES. If you can't pass the ride, get out and make room for someone who can. If PPCs were conducted with uniform standards by impartial evaluators who have no business interest in the company (in other words NOT a company management employee) then they would weed out the weak as they are supposed to. As long as aeroplanes are still being controlled by humans (not for much longer I'm given to understand) those humans need to be evaluated and held to a higher standard than being given the benefit of the doubt by one of their peers during a LOFT session. Things are touchy-feely enough as it is without doing away with evaluation. I personally think more people should be failing and sent packing.

Really, I look forward to a flight test: it's the one flight after which there isn't a filthy cabin to clean up and crap to unload.

And as a Pax in a BE200, I would expect my crew to be able to take off with one engine, climb to pattern altitude, and land safely with one engine only. How often do they do it? Anything less is speculation, and BS.

[happydude]

I must say that I agree with Teacher and all those others that are not a fan of the recurrent PPCs. Like they said, it just proves that you can memorize and pass a test. That's all. It doesn't show how you will react in a real situation like a LOFT sim or line check can. When you do a PPC, you expect a V1 cut, you expect your engine to fail on an overshoot, you expect everything to happen. The real world doesn't work like that. Well we may be ready for the engine to fail on take off, do we really expect it to happen every flight?
Think back to doing your PPL and CPL, did your instructor train you just to pass the flight test or train you for the real world of flying? After doing many many engine failures at 3000' in a variety of conditions anyone can make a field. But what happens if you are higher or lower or you miss your field? Can you adapt to the situation or will you just sit back and let whatever happens, happen.
There's far too much stock put into flight tests (both intial and recurrent). Yes flight tests help when intially getting a license or PPC to prove you have learned the required skills. But when training for these skills, we need to know how to use them in a practical situation and be able to adapt them in different scenarios. After that, training to standard, LOFT sims and line checks are the way to go. It's a much more realistic scenario and will really prove the knowledge you have.

[x-wind]

I appreciate the different perspectives; you've caused some-more consideration OceansEdge.

Beachboy: 'First and foremost, its ACP not CCP'
What are some of the differences? How does it work that you become a delegate to the minister and not a company employee, was that the reason for the name change?

"Not sure about the companies you gentlemen work for but most of our ACPs are non-management, line guys with no business interest in the company except to ensure our paychecks arrive in a steady and continuous manner. and I take exception to you're calling out of my (our) professionalism with respect to maintaining impartiality and the application of uniform standards."

Most of your APC aren't management, but not all? Your line ACPs are interested in ensuring your paychecks arrive in a steady continuous manner sounds impartial, may be it isn't though..
We're all fallible and often times greedy; I don't believe there to be an interest in "calling out our industry", just discussion.

Teacher: The poll suggests most of us do them no problem-o. Not the attitude of 'just get them over-with', just saying.

[Meatservo]

BeechBoy, it sounds to me like you are very impressed with yourself. I however do not feel the same reverence for your position as you seem to. You cease to be a company employee, and become morally beholden to the minister. Really? Does this mean if you get fired over an unrelated matter, but happen to be acting in your capacity as a "Federal Agent", you can continue to hold your position? Does it come with a gun and a badge, or just a badge? The only reason I can think of that you would take personal offense to my previous statement, is that you consider yourself and your fellow "ACPs" to occupy a higher moral and intellectual plane than the rest of us lowly pilots. Get over yourself. It's too bad we can't all have officious twerps working for us who have such reverence for the sacred trust that has been bestowed upon them, and who can ignore the earthly pressures of the airline management environment by taking comfort in the enormity of the powers conferred upon them by the minister and indeed, her Majesty herself! Then I would have faith in airline self-regulation. Too bad the corporate brothers probably don't have as much respect for the lofty office of the ACP as you do. I think you would be surprised and a little disillusioned if you were aware of the professional ethics of some of your brother ACPs around the country. I envy your naivete. Just so we're clear, I'm not "calling out" anyone who has acted as an ACP. How do you know I'm not one? (Well, I'm not as it happens) But don't preach to me from your soapbox of moral rectitude. We all know better.

No offense.

[teacher]

True and in this business that's exactly what you need to do to stay in it however I and many others feel that it would benefit us and our industry more if we trained people rather than tested them.

[Meatservo]

I still don't understand your objection to a little test upon completion of the training. Some guys still can't pass the test after all the training. I have personally witnessed this. I would like to see these guys out of the cockpit and into some other role in society where they can contribute more fully, without killing people.

[Brantford Beech Boy]

..What are some of the differences? How does it work that you become a delegate to the minister and not a company employee, was that the reason for the name change?

A CCP is tied to one company and can only renew PPC/IFT for the company at which he/she is employed. When TC decided to cease performing rides, the CCP changed to the ACP program. Essentially the same but we are lo longer "tied" to the company and can perform PPC/IFT for anyone. No permission is required from our company in order to perform PPC/IFT at any other company.

As for being a delegate of the minister, check out TP11825E. Should answer your question.

..Most of your APC aren't management, but not all? Your line ACPs are interested in ensuring your paychecks arrive in a steady continuous manner sounds impartial, may be it isn't though..

just as impartial (or not) as any other line pilot in wanting his/her company to remain viable. That's all i was trying to say.


BBB