Buying your own plane for the CPL - worth it?

[172PIC]

Just curious what people's opinions are on if it's worthwhile to buy your own plane for the CPL. I'm at about 140 hours, 40 solo already, but even then doing the quick math I'll spend close to $15,000 on rental on the 172s I'm flying to finish the CPL. There's C150s around selling for that.

So is it worthwhile buying, putting the time on your own plane and ending up with an asset at the end or is the risk of an engine overhaul, maintenance etc. not worth it and just go with a fixed cost for rent?

[Old Dog Flying]

I would suggest that if you can get an independent AME to do a thorough pre-purchase inspection and the engine is relativley low time than yes, it is worth the effort.

Everything comes at a cost but having your own aircraft when you want to fly, and where you want to fly at a reasonable cost is an asset worth having. When you are finished your CPL you then have the opportunity to either sell it or keep it as another means of transportation.

[lupin]

1100$ for insurance
at least 500$ for parking fees
1000$ min for an annual inspection (being an AME I do my own maintenance and my cost are way above that this year)

100$ nav canada fees (if your airport does not have landing fees)
22-24 liters per hour with avgas at 1.50 per liter

You have roughly 2500-3000$ of fixed costs, and for every hour flown you have variable cost in the form of oil and gas at a minimum.

Right now it is a buyers market, so you might have trouble dumping the plane back on the market when you are done. The fixed costs continue if you do not sell.

[The Old Fogducker]

I'm no longer expert on such matters, but look into the tax implications. Training for the CPL is deductable as an educational expense if flown through a registered educational institution (flying school) which may or may not be the case for hours flown on your own aircraft.

I've been out of that loop a long while now, but it may be the deal amker or breaker in your decision.

After having paid the bills on roughly 15 aircraft in commercial service, I would sooner own a show jumping horse ... they are a lot less expensive and costs are more predictable.

OFD

[cgzro]

if you are mechanically inclined and can find a mechanic that will supervise / help and sign then yes buy an old 150 with a good engine and it may be cheaper.
However if you have never done any automotive basic maintenance or cant find a mechanic willing to supervise you just keep on renting as it far cheaper.

[172PIC]

Thanks for the replies so far,

My uncle is an AME so I have that covered, grew up in a farm so I know basic mechanical stuff though I'd pretty much limit myself to changing the oil (I think that's as far as owner maintenance allows anyways). Airport I fly at has free tie downs too. I believe the club's instructor rate is higher for private aircraft so I need to do the math on that, the HST on my remaining training will be about $2000, I'd be able to claim the tax on the instructing back but not sure if I can for my expenses on my own plane, thanks for pointing that out.

The benefits to owning seem obvious but the downsides too, my main fear is buying one then 3 months in suddenly having major work on the engine coming up that grounds it.

[LousyFisherman]

Buy into a partnership.
All the benefits, none (well maybe a few) of the hassles of ownership.

Can be as low as 4K investment, 50/month, 50/hour wet for a 150.
Can be as low as 10K investment, 50/month, 100/hour wet for a 172.

Always check maintenance logs, reserve funds and whether the operating account is in surplus

If you're in Calgary PM me. Otherwise, start asking around clubs, posting want ads at strips.....

LF

[CpnCrunch]

I'd say go for it! Just make sure you get a good prepurchase inspection before buying, and then you are less likely to come across expensive surprises. Buy a plane that flies regularly and has good compressions. That is more important IMO than low SMOH.

The bigger problem is finding a reliable and trustworthy freelance instructor - there are a lot of shady operators out there.

[loopa]

PM "Randleman", he bought his own C150 for the CPL course, he was mentioning that it was worth it for him.

[burninggoats]

Just curious, but how do you figure that 60 hours of mostly PIC time is going to run you $15,000?

[172PIC]

Haven't started on the commercial itself, which is at least 35 hours dual required, plus the 60 PIC I need min, so 95 hours min, also I did the math based on the 172s I'm flying now but even with a 152 it's min $10k, plus I'm looking at it for hour building after the license, use for instructor rating etc.

My flight school does do instruction in private aircraft so I'm fine there.

[burninggoats]

ohhh my appologies, I was under the impression that all you really needed was 60 hours PIC and maybe some flt test prep. In that case it may make a little more sense to think of purchasing one, especially if you want to use it after for fun/building hours/instructor rating. The bottom line, however, is it will in no way cost you less money to go that way.

What it might save you is a lot of time. Many schools have a common problem in that the instructors are available much more often that the aircraft, especially class 1's for your instructor rating. Being able to fly whenever you want for as long as you want would be a real advantage for your time building and instructor rating in my, extremely expert, opinion.

[CpnCrunch]

The bottom line, however, is it will in no way cost you less money to go that way.

I think it probably will cost less owning his own plane - his uncle is an AME and he can help with the maintenance himself, so that is the main expense covered (or at least reduced). If he buys a 150 the cost will be about $1k a year for insurance and another $2600 for the avgas for 95 hours (less if he uses mogas) plus maybe a few thousand for maintenance at most if he gets a decent plane.

One thing to be careful with is to make sure you buy a plane that has a 406Mhz ELT (or at least bear in mind when buying that you will probably have to upgrade to one - cost about $1k plus labour last time I checked).

In today's aircraft market you are buying at the bottom so you are unlikely to lose much money when you sell the plane (as long as you don't overpay when buying - make sure your negotiating skills are honed

[into the blue]

My uncle is an AME so I have that covered, grew up in a farm so I know basic mechanical stuff though I'd pretty much limit myself to changing the oil (I think that's as far as owner maintenance allows anyways).

Not quite true. Here's the list of elementary work tasks that you can perform on your own (naturally, with a reference to your aircraft's Service Manual): http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... /a625a.htm

[KAG]

Aside from saving money, this is something that can go on a resume - you were an AC owner and have a true appreciation of what AC management is all about.
I’m sure with the right accountant with Tax know-how, you could incorporate yourself and use the training as a business right off

[172PIC]

One thing to be careful with is to make sure you buy a plane that has a 406Mhz ELT (or at least bear in mind when buying that you will probably have to upgrade to one - cost about $1k plus labour last time I checked).

Ya a 406 will be a must on any plane I buy, unless the cost reflects paying to put one in.

[g_goo_goo]

Apex out in Buttonville has quite a few 172's for sale now. High time approx 8000-10000 hrs. Looks like they were used for flight training. Wondering if it's worth it to buy one ($50K-$80K) and fly for approx 500hrs and then sell it. They look well maintained. Is Apex reputable?

[Big Pistons Forever]

[quote="g_goo_goo"]Apex out in Buttonville has quite a few 172's for sale now. High time approx 8000-10000 hrs. Looks like they were used for flight training. Wondering if it's worth it to buy one ($50K-$80K) and fly for approx 500hrs and then sell it. They look well maintained. Is Apex reputable?[/quote

I do not recommend aircraft ownership for CPL time buiders. Currently, it is very easy to buy an aircraft but very difficult to sell one. My WAG is most C 150/172's have been on the market for over 6 months. The other problem is many of these planes are on sale becasue major expensive maintainance is coming due. A common thing is to see the engine at or over TBO. The seller says that you can run it on condition, which is true but the engine doesn't owe anybody anything and could develop a terminal problem on the next flight. For a C150 you are looking at $20,000 for and overhaul and the labour to re and re. It could easily hit $25000 for a C172. There is no way you can get that kind of money back if you sell right away. If you really want to buy than get the nicest aircraft you can find and pay top dollar for a low time (low total engine time and overhaul less than 5 yrs old) with no corrosion good paint and interior and newer avionics. A "nice" aircraft has ramp appeal and will be easier to sell than a ratty one and a strong engine and good radios eleiminates the two money pits. Finally be prepared to spend $1000 for a full prepurchase inspection including jug removal by a shop not in any way associated with the seller.

[Bede]

I had access to a C150 for my CPL (my Dad's) and saved a ton of money. The best advice I can say is to make your you get a good AME and pay him good money for a real pre purchase inspection. I can guarantee, this will be the best money you spend. I'd stay out of the US market-too much crap for sale. Also, if you plan to resell, buy the best airplane you can- they are always easier to sell than a ratty junked out one.

[culver10]

Instead of buying a boring, clapped out 150, why not consider a C-140??? Tailwheel time is much more valuable for a low time pilot. Plus, a 140 is WAY more interesting to fly than a 150.

[Hedley]

Fabric airplanes are not a good choice for someone without a hangar.

[SuperchargedRS]

I think its a great idea! I wouldn't get a C150 or C172 as there are way to many of them. When you get done with your license not only do you have a CPL but a airplane! A metalized 140 or Luscombe would be nice, if you can handle a rag wing a 7AC champ cant be beat, EXCELLENT performer, great on gas and a overall nice plane

Only thing to keep in mind is if your going to just use it for hours and sell it, plan on keeping it for a few years (unless you want to whore it out for nothing). If you can, now is the time to buy.

Apex out in Buttonville has quite a few 172's for sale now. High time approx 8000-10000 hrs. Looks like they were used for flight training. Wondering if it's worth it to buy one ($50K-$80K) and fly for approx 500hrs and then sell it. They look well maintained. Is Apex reputable?

50-80k lol, man I can get this creampuff (with 2500TT, 330 SMOH on engine) for just over 50k without even busting the guys balls


If you pay 50-80k for a used spam can, please post your address so I can fly over and slap you!

[g_goo_goo]

The thing is I haven't got a clue about buying an airplane and to me 50K-80K sound perfectly reasonable but I guess there might be dishonest dealers or owner trying to dump stuff on the market and saying that they are in great condition while they are POS (not unlike buying a car). Typically how much can you bargain with the seller. I mean they might say 80K but expect only 60K... that's a big difference. I have no concept of what is reasonable price. I can see that in the US, they are dumping aircraft for dirt cheap; but in Canada the market could be different and generally everyone (the seller) asks top dollar. Any opinions???

[SuperchargedRS]

http://barnstormers.com/

First find what comparable aircraft are going for,

Second on the prebuy, deduct the price of any repairs needed or have the seller fix them as part of the sale.

Third hit them low and see where it goes, you want 50k I say I was budgeting for 39k, see how he reacts and that will let you know how bad he wants his plane gone (just like buying anything else).

If you can think outside the box a little, you should be able to get your CPL for more or less the same cost as the traditional method as well as having a appreciating asset to show for it.

64k (probably would take 50)


Want to have some fun? 32k


30k with 82 SMOH


32k with floats and wheels ...1300 SMOH


etc. etc. etc.

[lupin]

Thanks for the replies so far,

My uncle is an AME so I have that covered, grew up in a farm so I know basic mechanical stuff though I'd pretty much limit myself to changing the oil (I think that's as far as owner maintenance allows anyways). Airport I fly at has free tie downs too. I believe the club's instructor rate is higher for private aircraft so I need to do the math on that, the HST on my remaining training will be about $2000, I'd be able to claim the tax on the instructing back but not sure if I can for my expenses on my own plane, thanks for pointing that out.

The benefits to owning seem obvious but the downsides too, my main fear is buying one then 3 months in suddenly having major work on the engine coming up that grounds it.

You are trying to save money. Forget about the club instructors who charge a higher rate if you use your own aircraft. You should be able to find a freelance instructor charging 20-30$/hour. Instructors are usually incredibly underpaid, they will appreciate the higher wage you offer them.

As far as aircraft go, 50,000 to 80,000 is way to high of a price to pay for a training aircraft. Right now, it is a buyers market. If your uncle is an AME, you can probably pick up a c-172 with a mid time engine for 30,000 in the US right now. Importing isn't a big deal for such a price difference. Your uncle should be able to do a proper pre-purchase for you. A Cessna 120 or 140 can be purchased for 15g-25g and should give you all you need at a lower fuel cost. Re fuel costs, you might want an aircraft with the autofuel STC in order to reduce cost further. The Rotax 912 is a very desirable engine in an aircraft due to it's low fuel burn (sub 10 liters per hour in cruise). Another thing to consider is the equipment in the airplane. It's nice to have more navigation equipment when doing the instrument training. A friend just picked up an IFR equipped 1978 C-172 for 28G. It had to be imported but at least at that price you should be able to get your money back when you sell it.

As a pilot, an aircraft owner, an AME and someone who is doing training on his own airplane, I would highly recommend you look beyond the Canadian borders for price comparison. The average price for Canadian registered aircraft has not corrected for the US price drop. If you pay the high Canadian price, you will have trouble selling the aircraft when you are done. (remember a competitive price will give you the possibility to sell to either Canadians or Americans but a high price will limit you to the smaller Can. market unless your airplane has great value)

Feel free to PM me if you have more questions,

Éric