Future AME Discouraged

[Stumper]

Repeat post, see below...

[Stumper]

Repeat post, see below.

[Stumper]

One more thing to add for the potential newbies...

Some of the "bright side" posters here (who incidentally have all disappeared since the light of truth has been shined on their BS) make it sound like you have full control of your career choices. Chose helicopters, day shift, 100k salary, location, heavy / line etc. The truth is that the first job is very hard to come by and you take what you get and once employed your career is way more influenced by the luck of what endorsements the company's decide to send you on, layoffs / bankruptcies, and the company that's willing to hire you while your on unemployment, then any personal choices you may want or hope to make.

For example, all the Skyservice guys that were making $37/hr a few months ago aren't going over to jazz (to do the same job on the same planes) for $23/hr as part of their aviation master plan. They are simply stuck doing what they have to to survive in this f'd up industry.

I find it very interesting that the positive crowd has to make believe to support there arguments then all disappear when BS is called. Look back on the posts and you will see that not one of them dared call BS on Pat, BRV, SeptRepair or myself. In fact often they conceded our points as true then claimed they were martyrs under attack for being positive, or simply disappeared.

[bombardierfixer]

Bright side poster here, we state our experiance get berated as "prozac AME's" ect. It gets to the point where there really is no point to re-post how much life sucks ect... I like my job, my scheadual works for me and my family. I work 5 on 5 off and I work days, evenings, nights. I'm married (first wife still) I have two kids. The pay isn't that great, its still more than the average afore mentioned level two power engineer in Calgary. Just because I don't hate my job don't label me, and the others that enjoy their jobs. I've been doing this for 10yrs. I've done heavy third party, small charter line, contract and now airline line. I've seen a lot of the M2 world, I'd like to see business stuff but I think I'm sticking around for a while where I'm at. So now I'm just going to sit back and not post because I'm going to get lit up (again) for not towing the this industry sucks line, and I'm not going to change anyones opinions and I really don't care. It gets to the point where in all of the screaming your message gets lost now I'm gonna troll for Strega.

Jon.....................................

[billy ray valintine]

Bright side poster here, we state our experiance get berated as "prozac AME's" ect. It gets to the point where there really is no point to re-post how much life sucks ect... I like my job, my scheadual works for me and my family. I work 5 on 5 off and I work days, evenings, nights. I'm married (first wife still) I have two kids. The pay isn't that great, its still more than the average afore mentioned level two power engineer in Calgary. Just because I don't hate my job don't label me, and the others that enjoy their jobs. I've been doing this for 10yrs. I've done heavy third party, small charter line, contract and now airline line. I've seen a lot of the M2 world, I'd like to see business stuff but I think I'm sticking around for a while where I'm at. So now I'm just going to sit back and not post because I'm going to get lit up (again) for not towing the this industry sucks line, and I'm not going to change anyones opinions and I really don't care. It gets to the point where in all of the screaming your message gets lost now I'm gonna troll for Strega.

Jon.....................................

bomb......
if you like the decline that is happening for M2 guys,that's your opinion.
your ten years in aviation doesn't even qualify with me.{I HAVE COATS FROM BANKRUPT COMPANIES OLDER THAN THAT!}
when we tell you guys the reality,we get accused of how much we hate life!!!!
give me a f$$king break.
stumper just gave a comparison of the ss guys to jizz guys and from my math that's a 14.00
dollar an hour difference.do you need more proof?,do you see where this industry is going?
if you want to go backwards in pay,go ahead but don't assassinate the guy's trying to stop it.
sorry if the truth hurts.

brv

[Stumper]

Bombardierfixer,

My post was not directed towards yourself, iflyforpie or roncoldlake. I think if you reread my posts you'll see that I have no problem with people that like their jobs as long as they provide true info as regards pay and working conditions as opposed to make believe or BS.

the pay can really suck up to not bad and even good. Pat has some points, but so does Pie. I've enjoyed it for the last 10yrs but I've been lucky...

I like my job, my scheadual works for me and my family. I work 5 on 5 off and I work days, evenings, nights. I'm married (first wife still) I have two kids. The pay isn't that great

I find the above to be a pretty fair statements. Though I would caution that any good pay to be found in this industry invariably tags along with a massive reduction to quality of life.

I do wonder why in light of some of your admissions you would so strongly recommend the trade to others...

from my math that's a 14.00
dollar an hour difference. do you see where this industry is going?

Sadly it seems there are some who can't see.

[The Weasel]

I find it very interesting that the positive crowd has to make believe to support there arguments then all disappear when BS is called.

My apologies. I was out of town enjoying some vacation time

I don't know why you would call it make believe. My experience in this industry is just that, my experience. It isn't a universal experience or an experience that averybody would want to have, and I made that clear from the begining. I don't know why there are some who would claim that the only experience in this industry is being treated like sh*t, and then get all bent out of shape when told that hang on a minute, it's not like that across the board. Because it's not horrible doomsday throughout the entire industry, despite what some say. It may be so in certain sectors, but the reality that life is actually bearable in others is not make believe or BS. It's reality.

Some of your guys' experiences may have been bad, but mine hasn't/isn't and I know plenty of others who are happy with the work. I haven't worked in airlines or fixed wing or structures or overhaul shop or avionics, so my experinces are limited to a point, but you guys can't go around bitching and whining that it's doom and gloom all throughout the industry, because that's simply not true. I've never claimed that it's all peaches and roses all the time, but it ain't anal rapings all the time either.

There is good and bad in this industry, just like any other industry out there. Some of you say that being a plumber or power engineer or working in the oil patch (or whatever else) is all that AND a bag of chips. Great. What are you still doing here then? But I'm willing to bet there's at least a handful of plumbers out there that will tell you that their job sucks, that the industry isn't what it used to be, that the new kids coming into the trade are spoiled little brats, etc. I watch Mike Holmes It's not all peachy over in that part of the world either. I've also spent plenty of time around the oil patch and there's bitching there too.

Bottom line is that I've had a good experience in aviation (or I at least have made the best of it), and others have as well. I'm happy with my work, my lifestyle, and my pay, and there are others who feel the same. The industry isn't all sh*t.

[The Weasel]

stumper just gave a comparison of the ss guys to jizz guys and from my math that's a 14.00
dollar an hour difference.do you need more proof?,do you see where this industry is going?
if you want to go backwards in pay,go ahead

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't work in airlines), but didn't Skyservice operate 757 type machinery, versus Jazz who run Dash-8 and CRJs? In my (helicopter) world, going down from larger to smaller (and less complex) aircraft generally results in a cut in pay.

[Heliian]

I woke up today and I still love my job. The pay is decent and the schedule is alright. Downside, it's pouring rain and windy as hell. If you don't like your job, find something else to do.
If you have a sense of humour, might I suggest watching the movie "Office Space", it's f ing hillarious and shows you that not even white collar jobs are all they're cracked up to be.

[conehead]

"Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't work in airlines), but didn't Skyservice operate 757 type machinery, versus Jazz who run Dash-8 and CRJs? In my (helicopter) world, going down from larger to smaller (and less complex) aircraft generally results in a cut in pay."

Jazz is operating 757's for Thomas Cook starting this fall. They were looking to hire 20 757 rated engineers. I hear they had no problem doing that. The pay starts at about $23/hr. It's a union rate. As someone else said, you do what you gotta do to survive...

[ourkid2000]

$24 is bottom of the payscale for an ACA AME at Jazz. Jazz's contract recognizes relevant field experience so if the 757 guys came over with any amount of experience, which I would imagine they did having 757 ACAs, then they would be getting a much better rate than 24. I know guys who came to Jazz starting at $28 with only a few years experience.

[billy ray valintine]

$24 is bottom of the payscale for an ACA AME at Jazz. Jazz's contract recognizes relevant field experience so if the 757 guys came over with any amount of experience, which I would imagine they did having 757 ACAs, then they would be getting a much better rate than 24. I know guys who came to Jazz starting at $28 with only a few years experience.

thanks for the info,but the wage is a joke.
in 1999 an apprentice i worked with just got his license and an endorsement and went to 29.00 per hour...... eleven years ago!.
glad to see things are looking up
when thomas cook is done their flying season,i'm sure we will be talking about the 20 guys that were hired for the 757's at jizz.
maybe in 5 to 10 years from now,the AME's wage will catch up to minimum wage in ontario.

brv

[Indanao]

I woke up today and I still love my job. The pay is decent and the schedule is alright. Downside, it's pouring rain and windy as hell. If you don't like your job, find something else to do.
If you have a sense of humour, might I suggest watching the movie "Office Space", it's f ing hillarious and shows you that not even white collar jobs are all they're cracked up to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8CrvGndKzE

[buck80]

"Future AME Discouraged" Pretty much sums up the trade in general...Discouraging...Me thinks you have answered your own question and your first impression is normally correct. "Grey Cloud over the trade" Right again... It appears your one step ahead of future AME wannabees..dont loose your ground.

Buck

[Pat Richard]

So what if you're stuck in the bush for 6 months of the year the rest of the time is yours. Also, for the 6 months i am in the bush all my meals and lodging are paid for too on top of my daily rate and flight pay bonus. The bush camps have come a long way in the past decade and most include internet and television. Why do you think i'm wasting my time with this forum in the first place?

I just caught the above.....my god, is this your sales pitch for "yay" side?? In your mind you seem to think you're in ame paradise. Wow, 'nough said.drugs

have the wall thicknesses increased over the years, or are people still being awoken by the sounds of their neighbor snoring/farting/belching/talking on the phone? Disregard if you are in a lovely tent(helicopter seismic) .
I too spent time I wish I could have back, sharing meals and living facilities with strange men, working with mother nature through all her fury through all seasons, etc, but i had a strange reaction.
I thought it sucked, and no amount of fishing ever made up for it.

Going by your previously displayed ego/arrogance, I fully expect you to respond with a diatribe consisting of details of your holidayinnlike camp accommodations. Right?
BBBUUULLLSHIT. I still keep contact with some heli ames, including great slave, and no one raves on like you do. Perhaps you are one of the 2nd class whiner tellyourkids speaks of, or maybe it gets down to just having lower expectations?

neverworkedforjazzpat

[Schimunga]

To Pat, Stumper and BRV--Have you guys ever thought of leaving aviation and trying something else? It might do you some good if you did. Then you might realize that other industries also have managers that don't give a f*ck about you, that you feel that the next guy who is an idiot is making more then you, that you are being backstabbed by co-workers who are moving up the corporate ladder, that you are asked to give up your plans to work late or work a weekend. Everything you guys bitch about happens in every other profession. I will be the first to say I was one of the guys who bitched alot about the state of the industry but once I left and seen what other professions are like, aviation isn't so bad.

Its like you guys can't stand the fact that someone actually likes aviation. What's up with that?

[lupin]

Yikes...

This Thread is depressing. Yet it seems to keep going and going.

In marketing class, you learn that a happy customer brings you two more customers, an unhappy customer will usually take away ten customers. I suspect we have a similar phenomenon happening here. The AMEs who are happy in their jobs, aren't spending their time on a forum praising the industry or painting the job as a hell with third world conditions, they are content and minding their business and day to day lives. The bitter employees whom have been dealt a bad hand and have been unable to find what they consider is acceptable conditions/wages are on here painting a dreary picture of the industry. I do not contest these posters' perception of the industry... but it is just that, their perception based on their experience and surroundings.

I have been working in this industry for 17 years, my pay is decent, my work conditions are amazing. I am not overworked and my time off is better then what most people get. I have never been out of work for any length of time, I am always able to find work (freelance sometimes,contracts or full time). There is a lot of money in aviation, you just have to choose what you want in terms of salary and conditions and act accordingly. (you might not be wrenching on airplanes if your goal is 100g/year in the short term) If you want a higher salary, maybe you need to consider going back to school for further educations? There are many employees who have transferred their skill to related businesses. I know of people working at CAE making over 80g per year...

This industry is amazingly varied, some companies will permit you to transition to flying, some will give you the opportunity to get a pilots license, others will give you travel benefits, some have flexible schedules. In bigger companies you can transition to training departments, customer support, maintenance control, airworthiness, planning etc... the possibilities are surprising.

If you are a newby... the first jobs might be harder to come by with the general economy presently in a downturn but similar conditions were around in the early nineties and most AMEs found some way to make it trough.

Éric

[itismedd]

The people that are saying negative things here to any newbie coming into this industry are just speaking from their experience, as the same thing goes for the positive people on this thread. The question is which side outweighs the other. I think the people that are happy with their job are far less than the ones that are unhappy( just a guess people). I for one am on the side of "this industry sucks", not because I am disgruntled, or a trouble maker. It is because after 18 years, I have come to the realization that maybe I should have chose something else. Why dont I get out you say......well maybe because I have 3 kids, a wife who depend on me, a mortgage, car payments makes it ...not so easy. So if its going to be hard to change my career maybe I can lend a few words of advice to the newcomers( when they ask ) to help prevent them from being in the same place 18 years from now and tell them to keep walking.

[Stumper]

Weasel,

I think you have a few more posts to respond to before you take the high road there buddy.

[Stumper]

Yikes...

This Thread is depressing. Yet it seems to keep going and going.

In marketing class, you learn that a happy customer brings you two more customers, an unhappy customer will usually take away ten customers. I suspect we have a similar phenomenon happening here. The AMEs who are happy in their jobs, aren't spending their time on a forum praising the industry or painting the job as a hell with third world conditions, they are content and minding their business and day to day lives. The bitter employees whom have been dealt a bad hand and have been unable to find what they consider is acceptable conditions/wages are on here painting a dreary picture of the industry. I do not contest these posters' perception of the industry... but it is just that, their perception based on their experience and surroundings.

I have been working in this industry for 17 years, my pay is decent, my work conditions are amazing. I am not overworked and my time off is better then what most people get. I have never been out of work for any length of time, I am always able to find work (freelance sometimes,contracts or full time). There is a lot of money in aviation, you just have to choose what you want in terms of salary and conditions and act accordingly. (you might not be wrenching on airplanes if your goal is 100g/year in the short term) If you want a higher salary, maybe you need to consider going back to school for further educations? There are many employees who have transferred their skill to related businesses. I know of people working at CAE making over 80g per year...

This industry is amazingly varied, some companies will permit you to transition to flying, some will give you the opportunity to get a pilots license, others will give you travel benefits, some have flexible schedules. In bigger companies you can transition to training departments, customer support, maintenance control, airworthiness, planning etc... the possibilities are surprising.

If you are a newby... the first jobs might be harder to come by with the general economy presently in a downturn but similar conditions were around in the early nineties and most AMEs found some way to make it trough.

Éric

Lupin, I think I know of you from a few other forums and You seem like a great guy...

From what I can tell you work for Air Canada. Should the newbies hope for the same run you've had (pension, benefits , pay, working conditions or are things looking a little less promising?

[ChallengerDan]

For what it's worth.... To any newbie trying to get into the AME business, make sure you are in there for the right reasons.
It's tough out there.... long hours, stress, know nothing bosses, departments run by accountants, less than stellar pay, etc etc etc.
All the bad things mentionned by the posters here are true.
But guess what.
I still love it.
I'm making as much money now that I was making 8 years ago, will probably never see the kind of money I was making 4 years ago, I rotate trough days and graveyard, 12 hrs, I have to make up every now and then for all the useless lazy arses that are just being around, not doing anything usefull.

Call me dumb, but I still feel really proud when my airplane is sitting on the ramp at 5am and ready to go.
I still get that warm fuzzy feeling when I fix some weird snag at the gate with the airplane fully loaded with pax, ready to go.
I am excited when I get to go on an AOG to a remote airport, because I know that I might deal with adverse conditions, I will most probably be working with no hangar, a 6 foot ladder when I need a 12 footer, the one and only tool that will make the job easy I most certainly left in my toolbox at the base, and nothing will cooperate to make my life easier. I will still get the job done.

Dont go in there for the glamour and the money.There's nothing like that. You will make decent money at most, and the only thank-you's you will receive will most probably be your owns. Nobody will remember all the cool feats you've pulled the one and only day you will f$%k something up. And believe me if you do work you will mess stuff up every now and then. Make sure it doesn't happen too often.
Most people I know are either divorced or single, so make sure you pass on some of the stuff in order to be home sometime.


I still love what I do.
Go for it. experience it, then stay in there or move on... your choice.

I've been in this business for ten years now, 4 th job. I have yet to find the perfect job. Will move to the next one when the time is right. I dont feel like i owe my employer anything, contrary to what i thought a few years ago. Once you get the first layoff notice, it sheds a new light on what they should expect of you, and what to expect from them. From them, in short, not much. Whenever they will give you something, it is because they need you to have it, not because you deserve it. Remember that.

[Pat Richard]

Thank you for your candor.

If you're still in love with what you have, that's your business, but at least you don't attempt paint a bullshit scenario.
I have experienced most everything you describe, including the initial excitement of going away to an airport for a AOG rescue, then realizing enroute what was probably waiting for me.

Great post.

[billy ray valintine]

i have to say that challenger dan kind of nailed it.
fixing the aircraft is the easy part.
it {the a/c} never say's a word to you,it just needs to be fixed ,that's what i enjoyed.
that was always the fun and easy part.
the politics and bullshit is what i detested {in so many words}.
a newbie needs to know what the ups and downs are of this industry .
what was once a sexy industry is not a sexy industry anymore.
if you want to fix a greasy old piece of shit that belongs in a scrap yard {and you will},go ahead but you have been warned!



billy has left the building

[Stumper]

Great post ChallengerDan, very fair.

I dont feel like i owe my employer anything, contrary to what i thought a few years ago. Once you get the first layoff notice, it sheds a new light on what they should expect of you, and what to expect from them. From them, in short, not much. Whenever they will give you something, it is because they need you to have it, not because you deserve it. Remember that.

Exactly my experience. You've been very lucky to only go through that once in ten years. After the second or third time or a few of the other major boneings that commonly occur in this industry you'll be just as jaded as the rest of us. This job knocks you down and just keeps kicking and kicking.

I'll bet even brv and Pat Richard were young, keen and optimistic once upon a time...

[MjrPainless]

Wow, im actually surprised that this thread is still going.

Ive heard that saying at work before, one good shoping exp, will bring in 2 customers, but a bad exp will tell everyone they know.

I think that im going to take that, and apply it here. I know you all you guys are being as true as can be. And i appreciate it. But for some reason when I posted this i thought that i was going to get something to the affect of "DO IT, its an awesome job", or, "the pay is actually quite good" It looks though as if i was wrong. Thats unfortunate.

Im still going to go on with taking the AME E course. And like some of you say, go for it. I am young, and well, life is all about the experiences right?

Now, im curious, is there anyone who is an AME E on rotary? If so, i think that im more interested in that then working on fixed. But I do welcome any input. I have read about the camps, and how the living conditions can be. Im just looking to get as much info as i can.

Thanks MjrPainless