What are the best courses to take

[dirk82]

I think Im getting an idea of who these guys are that say they cant get a job or the indusrty is full, I have done my first few flights for my PPL and had my first ground school last night. There was approx. 10 people there. out of those ten 5 of them stared at there I phones texting the whole class and several times answered calls and slowly got up and yapped away as they were walking out of the room. Im not saying that they are not learning in these classes or that they need to be there, but all I have heard from so many articles and forums and web sites is your job hunt starts the day you start training. I can bet almost everything that any one of those 5 on their phones all night would not get any kind of recomendation from their instructors or even remotly be considered for an instructor job. Maybe Im way off base but these seem to be the kinda people that are just thinking they will float their way onto the indusrty and land a left seat 6 figure gig right out of school and wount except anything less.

[GTODD]

I think Im getting an idea of who these guys are that say they cant get a job or the indusrty is full, I have done my first few flights for my PPL and had my first ground school last night. There was approx. 10 people there. out of those ten 5 of them stared at there I phones texting the whole class and several times answered calls and slowly got up and yapped away as they were walking out of the room.

If that happened in my ground school class I hope that I would notice it and take it as a wakeup call that I am probably not putting enough effort into making the class interesting or worthwhile enough for the students who are paying to be there. Anytime you have a large class you are likely to get one or two lazy students who seem disinterested. But if half the class is not paying attention the problem is probably the instructor, not the students.

[dirk82]

I think he is doing a good job of keeping thing interesting, maybe its just me tho, Im so excited to be in there that it could be Ben Stien teaching the class and I would still be glued to the front. I just assumed I guess that since this is gong to be your career you would pay as much attention as possible, boring instructor or not. Its gona be your job. Do it right or dont bother showing up.

[Shiny Side Up]

Regardless of how boring the groundschool is it still isn't acceptable to text or answer your phone during it. Maybe its a different standard these days with kids. I was brought up during a time where if we wanted to communicate with someone in class we had to do this thing called passing notes, and if we were caught, the very least we could expect would be to be humiliated in front of the class, the worst was a form of corporeal punishment involving a strap or a yardstick.

If you're too cool for groundschool, then get the f*ck out. It ain't high school, you're only there because you want to be there. I realise there are some aviation prodigys that it might seem dull because you know everything - I can't tailor groundschool for each individual, so if you're some kind of idiot savant who has the entire CARs stored in your eidetic memory; at least sit, shut up and try not to be disruptive for everyone else's benefit. If you want to be a good student pretend to take notes.

[modi13]

A lot of hot-shot young pilots see the training more as a technicality and legal requirement than a necessity to learn. I was in a class of 24, and of those about half saw no need to pay attention in groundschool, or sometimes even show up. They skipped flights and showed up for exams without having studied at all; they were perfectly content with 60%, because that was all that was required. They had no interest in learning what they would need to know for later in their careers, only what was required to get licenced, and never considered how terrifying it is to think that there are people flying who barely know half of what they need to. I went on cross-country flights with a few of them, and they did things which were extremely dangerous, as well as causing delays to Jazz and WestJet flights; it was a direct result of their apathy, both towards their training in general and in ignoring the briefings I gave them before we took off. Most of those students failed out or didn't get flying jobs after, which is largely a result of the sense of entitlement they had: they expected to get an airline job immediately, and when that didn't happen they weren't willing to pursue employment. While I'd like to say that the industry is self-correcting, some of them still managed to slip into jobs, and I've run into captains who thought they'd "earned the right" not to cross seatbelts when the groundcrew was pressed for time. These are the people who are pilots before they take their first lesson, and expect to be treated like AC captains, even by their instructors. I'm not a fan of ramp work, but nothing knocks the arrogance off of one of them like busting their asses in the cold for a few months. For that matter, they're the ones who usually leave after a few days of real work.

[jump154]

Funnily enough, after 20 years out of education I recently went back to night school - and i've been tryly disgusted at the attitude of mnay of the younger student there. Not only is there is normal sketchy attendance, completing exams in 15 minutes, leaving 1/2 way through the class by those who 'have' to take the course as part of thier full time studies, but the incessant iphone/blackberry use, and even more annoying the students who sit and type incessantly on a laptop throughout the class. At first I gave them the benefit of the doubt, that they were taking notes - however it became clear that they are chatting on MSN/facebook, writing assignments for other classes, and doing everything apart from paying attention. Maybe it is because i'm paying $250 per class, and giving up my evenings that I am more committed, but they don't seem to be.

[glorifieddriver]

THE INDUSTRY IS FULL!

Have you looked into the job prospects of a 200h wonder (CPL, MIFR and all)? Have you really?
Even if you do get a job and build some time you'll probably end up on the shity end of this growing statistic viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65691&start=25&view=viewpoll.

+1
well said!

[SuperchargedRS]

Here is a thought for you shotgun your hours!

Find someone that wants to log hours as well, go to the US, split the rental cost of a multi (say a Seneca which goes for about 210ish wet) so your looking at about $105ish each,

one of you logs time "under the hood" the other logs time as the safety pilot (both are PIC),

get all your rating and license down south and convert back it to a Canadian CPL. Bada bing!

[fish4life]

I'm not sure of the situation where you live but if you can get your ramp/dock job while your working on your ratings this will cut down the time you have to do a ground job once your license's are done substantially. I know of a few guys, (myself included) who got on with an operations within a few months of all the ratings being completed because of this

[industrypolice]

Have some self respect..if your a qualified pilot you dont need to waste your life working ramp jobs..this is the modern day slave labour, that companies can get away with because of this whole belief that I have to sacrfice my dingity and health scraping crap off the belly of a plane. Last I checked a Doctor or a Lawyer didnt have to work as a janitor before getting there first job.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Have some self respect..if your a qualified pilot you dont need to waste your life working ramp jobs..this is the modern day slave labour, that companies can get away with because of this whole belief that I have to sacrfice my dingity and health scraping crap off the belly of a plane. Last I checked a Doctor or a Lawyer didnt have to work as a janitor before getting there first job.

Respect has nothing to do with the laws of supply of demand. The reality is the majority of todays operators hire to ramp or dispatch even Flight Training Units are increasingly starting new hires at the dispatch desk. Yes the occasional lucky guy gets hired staight out of flight school to a IFR right seat j/float pilot/full time isntructor job but most will start on a ground position. Taking a ground job doesn't mean you do not have any self respect it is IMO recogognizing that it is better to be working in the industry on the ground than to be on the outside looking in. If you are treated decently you can also learn a lot. The reality is the CPL course does not teach you anything about commercial flying. A stint in a ground job will be a good introduction to the reality of commercial flying operations. Yes unfortunatly there are some operators that abuse and lie to their rampies/disaptchers, but IMO most will give a guy/gal who has a good attitude and work hard, a fair shot, and those outfits who abuse their rampies usually also abuse their pilots so you are no further ahead in a flying position.

[GTODD]

Of course CFI's and owners are going to promote instuctors having to work dispatch before getting a flying job. Thats because they are managing a business, and it is their job to keep costs as low as possible. One way to minimize costs is to take advantage of eager new class 4's who will work for less than someone who is not a pilot and views dispatching/reception as a career.

The only way we can stop this from happening is if instructors/pilots do have some self respect and turn down these none flying jobs.

[Hedley]

IMHO the best entry-level job - eg for a PPL who is still working on his CPL - is line boy, pumping gas, whatever else needs to be done on the ramp. Learn the difference between 100LL and Jet-A. What's prist? What's an APU? Learn to move aircraft around the ramp without damaging them. Clean windshields, top up oil, shovel snow, remove snow and ice from aircraft. Hang around the hangar, maybe help with removing and re-installing a cowling or two. If you want, you can make a buck or two cleaning/waxing aircraft once you learn how.

I know the "white shirts" here will think this kind of practical hands-on experience might be beneath them, but trust me, it will make you a better pilot, and if you're not a total d1ck, you just might make some connections that get you a job later on. Aviation is all about whom you know.

A transient pilot lands, take him into town with you for lunch. He just might hire you to fly his twin. If he doesn't, you've made a friend, maybe he will recommend you to someone else. You do that enough times, you're going to connect.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get". Spend less time watching Mork & Mindy on the tube, and less time playing WOW online.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Of course CFI's and owners are going to promote instuctors having to work dispatch before getting a flying job. Thats because they are managing a business, and it is their job to keep costs as low as possible. One way to minimize costs is to take advantage of eager new class 4's who will work for less than someone who is not a pilot and views dispatching/reception as a career.

The only way we can stop this from happening is if instructors/pilots do have some self respect and turn down these none flying jobs.

So you are a brand new Instructor and you are offered a dispatch job (at the usual pathetic industry standard) which has opened up because the previous person has now moved up to a full time instructing position. I take it from what you have written ,that you would not accept the job because it is not a flying position. If I have correctly interpretted your post, than I think you would be making a big mistake, but at the end of the day you have to make your own decisions.
My personal observation is the majority of wannabe commercial pilots that would only accept flying positions as their first entry level jobs never find work..........

[GTODD]

I wouldn’t call the industry standard for a dispatcher “pathetic”.

I know a number of flight school dispatchers who are not pilots and they actually get paid quite well.

But it is has become common practice in the last couple years for flight instructors to work dispatch while getting paid substantially less than the “career dispatcher” who they replaced. This is a smart move by CFI’s and flight school management to minimize costs.

Just because you are a wannabe pilot/instructor you should not have to work for less than someone else who is not a pilot and does the exact same job.

I think it is important that instructors make the effort to figure out what the industry standard for a dispatcher at a flight school in the area is. Then they can make an informed decision to turn down any job that pays less than this amount.

If all instructors refuse to work these none flying positions for these discount rates the flight school management will be forced to go back to paying their employees a more respectable salary.

[Big Pistons Forever]

.

If all instructors refuse to work these none flying positions for these discount rates the flight school management will be forced to go back to paying their employees a more respectable salary.

This is a perfect exmple of what should be versus what is. I see no possibilty of what you are suggesting actually happenning therefore I have discounted your scenario when asked for advice on this topic.

[Shiny Side Up]

But it is has become common practice in the last couple years for flight instructors to work dispatch while getting paid substantially less than the “career dispatcher” who they replaced. This is a smart move by CFI’s and flight school management to minimize costs.

Just because you are a wannabe pilot/instructor you should not have to work for less than someone else who is not a pilot and does the exact same job.

You might be careful in making that assumption and as a bit of a favour I'll tell you why. I of course as a shoddy business manager often emply the instructors to cover the dispatch position when necessary. I do indeed pay them less than the regular "dispatcher". I put dispatcher in quotations because the term is innaccurate given what that individual does when say compared to the dispatcher of a passenger service or other type of flying operation, but the term will do for this discussion. Why do the instructors make less? What could be the reason for this injustice? The prime reason is that they don't do the same job. Often when instructors are used in thie position they are essentially phone answerers and there's nothing wrong with that. The "career dispatcher" usually has a host of other duties, but for a decently busy school is money well paid out if you want to run a tight ship. In reality if saving money was my prime objective, I'd just cover those hours myself - and do like some schools do, only pay the instructors when they're flying. I should say that the instructors in the past have occasionally refused to do such work which they felt was beneath them in which case I've covered it myself. I should also say that while the wage is less than what I pay the normal "career dispatcher" it is also a fair wage for the ammount of work I expect. It should also be noted that at a respectable school the "career dispatcher" is probably a long term employee - so when you as a new class 4 go to the table and say "I want to be paid more than Loni at the desk if you want me to do that job" you as the new instructor might want to aquaint yourself with how seniority works - yes, I know, inconcievable that someone who doesn't have a pilot's license might earn more money.

Back to my original point and how it affects you, a lot of these non-pilots who work in the aviation industry, often have a say in the pilots who get hired. They after all often have to work side by side with them. They also often are the ones who control access to the person who does the hiring as well.

In most cases I usually would be considered a God-forsaken socialist, and am a big proponent of equal pay for equal work. Be careful when demanding equal pay though in assuming you're doing equal work.

[GTODD]

Shiny side up thanks for the advice. But I wasn’t making assumptions; I was speaking from my own experiences from working with instructor’s, dispatchers at flight schools, and dispatchers at airlines.

Ground jobs are ok, as long as the pay is fair and you’re not being taken advantage of.
Early in my career I did have a couple of ground jobs, but I also politely declined the ground job offers where I felt the money was way too low. Those decisions have not hindered my career and as I have now had a number of different flying jobs and I think I am well liked by my current employer.

In my earlier comments on this thread I was referring to “dispatchers” that work at flight schools, not airlines.
In particular I was talking about flight schools that at one time hired a full time employee who didn’t have a dispatchers license but had the title “dispatcher” and paid them to sit behind a desk to do flight following and answer phone calls, etc. Some of these flight schools realised they could save a lot of money by sticking a wannabe pilot behind the desk instead and pay this person substantially less because they are a wannabe pilot. This is a shame because dispatching/flight following is a very important position and so the person doing it should always be paid well...even if they are a pilot.

I am not surprised to have gotten the response that I did from you and Big Pistons Forever because you guys are in management positions. My message was meant to be directed at the new instructor who reads this, and hopefully it will enlighten them a little...you don’t have to accept these low paying none flying jobs, I didn’t and I’m doing ok. I have many colleagues who have also gotten into this industry in the last 10 years with the same principles and they too are doing ok. The more pilots we can get to think this way the better this industry will be for everyone (by everyone I mean employees, not the employers)

Again, not trying to pick a fight with anyone, I just want to make sure new instructors realise that there are still a lot of schools out there that pay their staff fairly, and these schools have better reputations and provide a better product....also their staff is likely to show more loyalty to their employer, these are the schools that you want to work for.

[Shiny Side Up]

Again, not trying to pick a fight with anyone, I just want to make sure new instructors realise that there are still a lot of schools out there that pay their staff fairly, and these schools have better reputations and provide a better product....also their staff is likely to show more loyalty to their employer, these are the schools that you want to work for.

You should be more careful with your wording then. I understand what you're getting at and in general completely agree that no one should be volunteering work and no one should work for free. Everyone deserves to be paid for work done. Your statements come off though in the vein of:

1) No pilot should lower themselves to doing anything but flying, and

2) If someone with a pilot's license is doing one of those jobs they deserve more than someone without a pilot's license.

For some reason there's a lot of bad attitude amongst budding commercial pilots out there comming out of schools with white shirts and bars on their shoulders who think they should be able to just show up and fly the machine. I should say a good many instructors I've had give me a resume are the worst, where they refuse tasks like teaching groundschool, doing sim-work or doing exam review with students (all of which pay I might add, some on par with their in-air time).

Yes, yes, I'm an evil manager, fight the power.

[fly-drink-chicks-music]

I got my MIFR, so did 10 other of my friends. We graduated 2.5 months ago, 6 have jobs (dispatch-ramp) one is flying. The other few are in cathay interview process, cadet thing, and rest still looking. Im at a company where i just read was a 2-3 year wait by someone?! Last guy, was 11 months. Just thought id say that, and that networking is key.