It's perfectly legal to fly a straight-in final at an uncontrolled airport. It does not contravene any CAR. If it did, then every pilot that ever flew an instrument approach to an uncontrolled airport would have received a registered letter from Enforcement.
i would argue if you make any 90deg turn onto final, you were on a base first
Wrong. Please show me the definition of the dimensions of the circuit in the CARs. Hint: you will not.
Let's say I fly west to an airport 100 miles away and join a straight-in final and land on runway 27. Are you seriously arguing that any turns I made 100 miles away were in fact a base leg for the circuit?!
Really? how hard is it to push the little button and say "taking off 07" or say "landing 25" If it was another GA plane and not the same company, you could be sure there would be some big penalties being dished out, either way there will be some fines here for sure. What does the M in MF stand for? CARS 602 lays it out pretty well, both of these guys are in violation of several regulations. Personally, I have nothing against people trying to make a living cropdusting but if you're going to be incompetent and negligent then hit the bricks, drive a taxi or something.
Hedley wrote:It's perfectly legal to fly a straight-in final at an uncontrolled airport. It does not contravene any CAR. If it did, then every pilot that ever flew an instrument approach to an uncontrolled airport would have received a registered letter from Enforcement.
i would argue if you make any 90deg turn onto final, you were on a base first
Wrong. Please show me the definition of the dimensions of the circuit in the CARs. Hint: you will not.
Let's say I fly west to an airport 100 miles away and join a straight-in final and land on runway 27. Are you seriously arguing that any turns I made 100 miles away were in fact a base leg for the circuit?!
for f's sake, i didnt say it wasn't ok to turn straight in final at an ATF, i said you cant call a base to final turn a straight in final. hint: take 2 seconds before your urge to argue takes over your higher reasoning centres, to read and understand. secondly, if youre going to give an example to prove me wrong, use one that makes sense. 100NM final? i mean i know you like to try to come up with your witty little ways to try to prove your points, but please base it in reality...at least if you want any credibility. next, i said "TURN ONTO FINAL" not "TURNS AT ANY POINT IN THE FLIGHT BEFORE FINAL", jesus man are you so hell bent on being a ***** why you don't take the time to read all the little words too?
and for my final point, i said "I WOULD ARGUE" followed up with "IMO", as opposed to your very tactful 'wrong. Edited
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Last edited by Widow on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:profanity and personal attack
Maybe you should go to SK and tell them yourself. Oh, wait this is an anonymous internet forum and people like you do this kind of thing here...
They made a mistake and they will be fined for sure, whether they go driving taxis after this, I don't know.
Hey, do whatever you want in SK then, I for sure as shit ain't going there anytime soon. There have been too many occurences recently involving poor pilot decision making, we need to raise the bar a little and be more professional and show proper "airpmanship/airwomanship/airpersonship". Something that seems to be going the wayside in lieu of saving money and getting the job done. When you are PIC, in the cockpit, the only regulators watching you is yourself.
Heliian wrote:Hey, do whatever you want in SK then, I for sure as shit ain't going there anytime soon. There have been too many occurences recently involving poor pilot decision making, we need to raise the bar a little and be more professional and show proper "airpmanship/airwomanship/airpersonship". Something that seems to be going the wayside in lieu of saving money and getting the job done. When you are PIC, in the cockpit, the only regulators watching you is yourself.
I agree with the airmanshp, but sending pilots to drive taxis is something I disagree with. Start by showing your are more than an armchair pilot here and maybe people will start to listen to what you have to say.
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Last edited by nacho on Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
CpnCrunch wrote:
It is illegal to make right-hand turns in the circuit. It's spelled out pretty clearly in the CARs and TC will bust you for this.
Once you are in the circuit it's not legal. HOwever, you can claim you joined a long final (vice a right base)
Kind of correct. You can certainly join on a long final, but you can't do it from a 'right base'. The 'base' leg is part of the circuit, therefore if you say you 'joined the circuit via a right base' (as the CADOR said) then it is always illegal (unless of course the aerodrome has a right-hand circuit). The legal way of doing it is, as Hedley says, to just do a long straight in final. You might have done a right-hand turn sometime before that final, but it is not a 'base' leg - it is just some right-hand turn you did before entering the 'circuit'.
Hopefully, it's their first infraction and they won't have their licences suspended. As for the taxi comment, just got a little fired up as I have no respect for people who blatantly flaunt the rules, IF that is the case here. As for the approaches, I have done very few circuits in a helicopter and most are done just straight in and if so required, a quick join to final. Always stating your intention and talking to other a/c in the vicinity for conflicts. Aerial spraying is a very dangerous job and requires loads of skill and attention so that's why I'm kinda dumbfounded that they wouldn't realize the importance of communication while zinging around at low level, especially if they knew of company traffic in the area.
Tim wrote:i would argue if you make any 90deg turn onto final, you were on a base first. it might be a long final, but that just makes it a long base IMO.
Hedley wrote:It's perfectly legal to fly a straight-in final at an uncontrolled airport. It does not contravene any CAR. If it did, then every pilot that ever flew an instrument approach to an uncontrolled airport would have received a registered letter from Enforcement.
i would argue if you make any 90deg turn onto final, you were on a base first
Wrong. Please show me the definition of the dimensions of the circuit in the CARs. Hint: you will not.
Let's say I fly west to an airport 100 miles away and join a straight-in final and land on runway 27. Are you seriously arguing that any turns I made 100 miles away were in fact a base leg for the circuit?!
for f's sake, i didnt say it wasn't ok to turn straight in final at an ATF, i said you cant call a base to final turn a straight in final. hint: take 2 seconds before your urge to argue takes over your higher reasoning centres, to read and understand. secondly, if youre going to give an example to prove me wrong, use one that makes sense. 100NM final? i mean i know you like to try to come up with your witty little ways to try to prove your points, but please base it in reality...at least if you want any credibility. next, i said "TURN ONTO FINAL" not "TURNS AT ANY POINT IN THE FLIGHT BEFORE FINAL", jesus man are you so hell bent on being a ***** why you don't take the time to read all the little words too?
and for my final point, i said "I WOULD ARGUE" followed up with "IMO", as opposed to your very tactful 'wrong. Edited
How the landing aircraft joined final is a moot point; I wouldn't be surprised if Enforcement doesn't even bother to give it more than a cursory discussion. What they are going to nail his hide to the wall for, is landing on an already occupied runway; his "I thought he would hold his position til I was clear" defense, won't hold water. As I'm sure he realizes.
shitdisturber wrote:How the landing aircraft joined final is a moot point; I wouldn't be surprised if Enforcement doesn't even bother to give it more than a cursory discussion. What they are going to nail his hide to the wall for, is landing on an already occupied runway; his "I thought he would hold his position til I was clear" defense, won't hold water. As I'm sure he realizes.
WELL said. Why the heck are we debating a final? Are pilots really so ego-istic we have to win every discussion? Even the tiny minor details? What's next? Whether a zebra is white with black stripes or black with white stripes?
I agree with Trey Kule. Glad you pilots got out okay, please don't do it again
Here is the only reference to left hand circuits. CAR 602.96(3)c make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;
Until someone defines when I am officially operating within the circuit, I will still maneuver for a straight in approach regardless of the direction I am coming from.
Randleman wrote:
WELL said. Why the heck are we debating a final? Are pilots really so ego-istic we have to win every discussion? Even the tiny minor details? What's next? Whether a zebra is white with black stripes or black with white stripes?
I agree with Trey Kule. Glad you pilots got out okay, please don't do it again
I just brought it up as a warning, because many pilots don't realize it is illegal. The danger (I believe) is that you could have a head-on collision with someone on the opposite base leg. In this case, though, it doesn't appear to have been a factor.
Doing a right-hand turn 4 miles out followed by a long final is perfectly legal, and also safer than joining 'right base' (as you're less likely to run into someone doing a left-hand turn at exactly the same place). Just make sure you never call 'base' when doing this
Randleman wrote:
WELL said. Why the heck are we debating a final? Are pilots really so ego-istic we have to win every discussion? Even the tiny minor details? What's next? Whether a zebra is white with black stripes or black with white stripes?
I agree with Trey Kule. Glad you pilots got out okay, please don't do it again
I just brought it up as a warning, because many pilots don't realize it is illegal. The danger (I believe) is that you could have a head-on collision with someone on the opposite base leg. In this case, though, it doesn't appear to have been a factor.
Doing a right-hand turn 4 miles out followed by a long final is perfectly legal, and also safer than joining 'right base' (as you're less likely to run into someone doing a left-hand turn at exactly the same place). Just make sure you never call 'base' when doing this
sorry cpn crunch, I wasn't really aiming that one at you. Moreso at the people who are crying about it above.
You have a good point, and I think that it's fair to say that a circuit is hard to define, and there's nowhere in the cars really about it.
Tim wrote:secondly, if youre going to give an example to prove me wrong, use one that makes sense. 100NM final? i mean i know you like to try to come up with your witty little ways to try to prove your points, but please base it in reality...at least if you want any credibility
If you make such a blanket statement as:
Tim wrote:i would argue if you make any 90deg turn onto final, you were on a base first. it might be a long final, but that just makes it a long base IMO.
Please refrain from lashing out against people finding "corner cases" which invalidate the claim of the aforementioned blanket statement.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer
Rosetown is an ATF aerodrome, it is not an MF. There is no requirement to use a radio. There is no mention of right hand circuits in the Flight Sup, so the right base is a violation, although that may or may not have been a contributing factor to the accident.
602.19 (10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is
no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or
landing path.
602.96 (2) Before taking off from, landing at or otherwise operating an aircraft at an aerodrome, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall be satisfied that
(a) there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle;
602.96 (3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall (a) observe aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding a collision;
The pilot that was landing is at fault first, you can't land when there is another aircraft on the runway, period. Even if you talk to him and he says it is ok, that is even worse because now you are performing a control function. You are the PIC of your own aircraft only.
The pilot who took off made a major mistake by not making sure the takeoff path was clear before commenced the takeoff.
Both pilots are in contravention of the regulations.
Larry
mashowski wrote:Rosetown is an ATF aerodrome, it is not an MF. There is no requirement to use a radio.
But it's a very good idea. Luckily nobody died in this accident, but there was a fatal collision in this month's ASL where one pilot died due to taking off without making a radio call and not seeing the other chopper:
I LOL'd