Where should I apply to start working ramp?

[Cat Driver]

Deleted.

[GUMPS]

Naturally Cat Driver DID have something to say

[fallex]

I think your going to find that most companies around will advertise 2+ years on the ramp right now, simply due to the fact that there is not much movement industry wide. One thing I've learned in my limited experience so far is that things change. Just because they say 2 years, doesn't necessarily mean it.. it could be 6 months or it could be 4 years. I've seen both. I was told 6 months to a year when I started, and 2.5 years later I got my chance. Point is, pick a company that represents somewhere you may actually want to enjoy working at while our there. Even if you plan to use them as a stepping stone, it will make the transition much less painful. Base your decision on aircraft you will fly, location you'll be working in, pay, and other potential benefits (ie, jumpseat agreements with other carriers goes a long way for morale in the frozen north!). Also, keep in mind a bigger company "may" generate more movement, when the industry picks up again or due to internal movement should the company acquire new aircraft.

Good Luck!

[GTODD]

Times have changed since the old pilots here started...Either adapt to the changes or move on.

Yes, but it's not like things have changed for the better. I don't think Bear needs to adapt, based on what he has said it sounds like he has had a flying job for years. He is just lamenting what this industry has become for the low timer.

[Brown Bear]

I'd work outside the industry before I worked a ramp for a company like Wasaya, or Buffalo.
That's what I would do. Of course, I'm old and jaded. I think new pilots are treated like absolute CRAP and, they don't have the balls to say..."NO"!

Bear, venture back into your den and stop your bitching. If someone wants to work the ramp while waiting for an opportunity to get into the right seat of an aircraft, that's their decision. Most future pilots would rather work on a dock or on a ramp around the industry they love rather then a factory job or something completely disconnected from their career goals. Times have changed since the old pilots here started...Either adapt to the changes or move on.

You really have absolutely NO clue, do you? Go ahead and kiss every ass in sight for a right seat......that's your choice. It's also your choice to stuff your head up your arse. The industry is going down the toilet. It's guys like you who are helping it take that route. It's guys like me, who are trying to open a few eyes to the simple fact that new pilots are being USED! If you really think I CARE, dream on.

[modi13]

I took a job working at an airline, not in a flying position, just for extra income. I had no intention of ever flying there, and they made it explicitly clear that it likely wouldn't get me a seat. Quite simply, being a pilot with no other skills or qualifications, my options were to work a non-flying job in the industry I knew, or start working in fast food or retail; for once, aviation paid better. The airline didn't only hire pilots, and they didn't treat the pilots who were there any differently from the non-pilots, so they weren't taking advantage of me. Should I have refused to take the job because I wasn't flying? Should they have refused to hire me because I was a pilot and it wasn't right to have me working a non-flying job? Should they turn down applicants who already know the industry and airplanes, and may be more qualified than anyone else for the position, just because they have a pilot's licence? Like I said, if it's mandatory to prove oneself, or the pilots are paid less than their co-workers, then I don't agree with it, but if they have an opening, and someone wants to work in that position, should they turn them down just because they're a pilot? Should a restaurant refuse to hire a cook as a dishwasher because they don't have any positions for chefs? In fact, refusing to hire people just because they're pilots is discrimination and grounds for a lawsuit. I would much rather work the ramp than go hungry if there isn't any work available in my chosen profession.

[Brown Bear]

I took a job working at an airline, not in a flying position, just for extra income. I had no intention of ever flying there, and they made it explicitly clear that it likely wouldn't get me a seat. Quite simply, being a pilot with no other skills or qualifications, my options were to work a non-flying job in the industry I knew, or start working in fast food or retail; for once, aviation paid better. The airline didn't only hire pilots, and they didn't treat the pilots who were there any differently from the non-pilots, so they weren't taking advantage of me. Should I have refused to take the job because I wasn't flying? Should they have refused to hire me because I was a pilot and it wasn't right to have me working a non-flying job? Should they turn down applicants who already know the industry and airplanes, and may be more qualified than anyone else for the position, just because they have a pilot's licence? Like I said, if it's mandatory to prove oneself, or the pilots are paid less than their co-workers, then I don't agree with it, but if they have an opening, and someone wants to work in that position, should they turn them down just because they're a pilot? Should a restaurant refuse to hire a cook as a dishwasher because they don't have any positions for chefs? In fact, refusing to hire people just because they're pilots is discrimination and grounds for a lawsuit. I would much rather work the ramp than go hungry if there isn't any work available in my chosen profession.

That's a different scenario. The company wasn't using the almighty flying seat as a "carrot" to hang in front of your nose. If you happen to be a pilot, and there's a good paying job at your local airline, as something other than a pilot, and not as a "stepping stone" to a cockpit, I see no reason whatsoever to not take the job. The networking that you could do here alone, is worth the effort.
Now, I know I'll get "slagged" by some who don't "see" the difference. If you don't "see" the difference between an entry level ground job, that MAY lead to a flying position, and taking a job, just to make money in a different capacity with a company who just happens to be an airline, then you are a supper twit.


I'll ad to that. Any company that hires for a non-flying position that could be preformed by a non-pilot, and requires the position to be filled by a "pilot", ignoring applications from non-pilots qualified to do the job (get real here...ANY non-flying job) would be equally guilty of discrimination.

[aV1aTOr]

airborn0710:
Skip past all the old timers who had jobs handed to them in their day. They are disconnected from reality. The fact is, as you are well aware, there are far more pilots than jobs, and the idea that we should all 'just say no!' and magically the operators will offer king air jobs starting at $50 000 to 250 hour wonders is a total fantasy. It's easy to tell a 250 guy without a job to 'have some balls and don't work the ramp' when you already have a flying job. You have a great attitude and you will get a flying job and go far. Put in your time, like everyone has to these days, and it will come.
As for your original question, CMA does take guys with your time (less than 250) as long as you've written the IATRA. However of course you are going to have to reach 250 by the time your number comes up for gs. Wait is ~2 years, I believe there's 10 guys on the list right now.
One day, when us young bucks are old and crusty, maybe there will be a pilot shortage, and newbies will be hunted down for turbine jobs. And we'll all whine and complain that 'no one has to pay their dues these days! Boy, in our day you had to WORK for that job and PROVE yourself to an employer! What a shame....'

[Brown Bear]

Hire me, and I'll do ANYTHING! I'll even supply the knee pads. Some of you deserve to be treated like crap, work for peanuts, pay huge sums of money for up front "bonds"......because you're all tramps. You've done it to yourselves. Enjoy.


Okay, I'll admit it. It was a bit "strong"......still really against the practice, though.

[modi13]

How is it any different than being given a number and told to go wait for the call, and then taking a job with them in the capacity I described above? Most companies don't treat their rampies poorly; many hire pilots to work alongside non-pilots, and treat them the same. Some do dangle the carrot, overwork and underpay them, make them scrub toilets and make it mandatory that new hires work the ramp for 6 months +, but most are fair. They aren't depriving you of a flying job by making you work the ramp; they're letting you wait for someone to quit, and keeping you gainfully employed until that time comes. If someone is willing to wait for an opening rather than going off to compete with every other 200 hour wonder with a float rating in northern Ontario, and they would rather load bags than flip burgers for an equivalent amount of money (and have the dignity not to fellate anyone in the meantime) then how are they whores?

[David Hasselhoff]

Well put Aviator.

Brown Bear, since you feel so strongly about this subject, would you care to tell us how (and perhaps more accurately...WHEN) you made your start? Me...I always wanted to fly in the military for many reasons. One of the biggest was quality of training and the great spot you are in to either continue your flying career with them or go straight to a major airline with no training debts. Unfortunately, my eyes went south far enough to disqualify me from that opportunity. Since the dawn of deregulation in the 1970's, its been a slippery slope for all involved in aviation. The worst offenders being management making bonuses for cutting wages and of course all the wonderful new flight schools and TRTO's that popped up promising every Joe-Schmo a ticket to the big leagues... never mind how many times it took them to pass a CPL/IFR... as long as they kept paying....Even Selkirk and Seneca grads and their like have to pay their dues on the ramp just like everyone else because of the surplus.


Perfect example....

http://www.globalpilottraining.com/trai ... gwoddXOPbg#

these was on the advert banner at the top of this website while I was typing this out....

It's simple supply and demand. Too many low time pilots. Too many schools pumping out even more every year. Give it another ten years and perhaps there will be a TRUE shortage... (not the shortage they flight-schools, type rating providers and pilot agencies keeping lying about to keep people paying and hopeful....) would we really need pilot agencies if there wasnt an oversupply? Of course not, because they wouldn't be able to peddle short term contracts or act as middlemen for shady "pilot-contractor" deals from such wonderful cadet programs from the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair...


Best way to solve it? Don't want to stir the pot too much, but here's my radical solution.... Strip each and every flight school of their ability to grant a COMMERCIAL pilots licence. A guy who wants to fly his family around can still get a full multi-IFR...but wont be allowed to work for hire.

Have TC do a thorough audit and bidding for a limited amount of training academies who run their programs like Seneca and Selkirk. Only those schools will be allowed to train professional pilots for the industry.

Lots of applicants, maybe start with larger first year intakes which get weeded down based on their performance in studies and flight training. Voila.... Pilots will be back to being an elite, white collar profession again.

airborn0710:
Skip past all the old timers who had jobs handed to them in their day. They are disconnected from reality. The fact is, as you are well aware, there are far more pilots than jobs, and the idea that we should all 'just say no!' and magically the operators will offer king air jobs starting at $50 000 to 250 hour wonders is a total fantasy. It's easy to tell a 250 guy without a job to 'have some balls and don't work the ramp' when you already have a flying job. You have a great attitude and you will get a flying job and go far. Put in your time, like everyone has to these days, and it will come.
As for your original question, CMA does take guys with your time (less than 250) as long as you've written the IATRA. However of course you are going to have to reach 250 by the time your number comes up for gs. Wait is ~2 years, I believe there's 10 guys on the list right now.
One day, when us young bucks are old and crusty, maybe there will be a pilot shortage, and newbies will be hunted down for turbine jobs. And we'll all whine and complain that 'no one has to pay their dues these days! Boy, in our day you had to WORK for that job and PROVE yourself to an employer! What a shame....'

[Brown Bear]

airborn0710:
Skip past all the old timers who had jobs handed to them in their day. They are disconnected from reality. The fact is, as you are well aware, there are far more pilots than jobs, and the idea that we should all 'jus

And you think we old guys are out of touch? Love to see some of you guys spend two winters in NW Ontario, flying right seat on DC3's. Nothing like waking a ski equipped Douglas Racer on a nice -30 day, while the Captain enjoys breakfast. We didn't have any heat source, so we had to dilute the fuel. Then spend an hour or so, freezing our asses off while we burned off the oil in the fuel tanks. Oil was delivered over wing via five gallon pails. Another delight. Nothing like sleeping in unheated trailers in Three Star sleeping bags. No cute aviation colleges to hold our hands. No girly little shoulder stripes. The flying jobs themselves were so miserable, we wouldn't even consider putting up with that crap without having an airplane to fly. Most of you would wash out in two weeks. Or sooner. Oh yah, we sure had it "handed to us". On a silver platter. News flash for you there.....other than a few months about four years ago....there have ALWAYS been more pilots than jobs!

[Rudy]

Try Nakina Air Service. There's been some movement off the ramp lately. You might be able to start as first or second in line for a flying spot.

[GUMPS]

Deleted

Forget it. Some people just stay narrow minded their whole lives.

[Randleman]

You could start with Perimeter and start bagging Chicken Delight.

You could always groom planes at Keystone. They will even pay you 9 dollars and hour and give you one day off per week!!

The lowest paying job at Perimeter is 25% more pay than a place like Keystone or Fast Air (not going on actual fact for Fast Air). For pilots, Perimeter has no training bonds, start at 27K, max out at 120K in a 10 year span, work 16 days a month. Rampies start at 14 or 15 an hour.

[chinglish]

You could start with Perimeter and start bagging Chicken Delight.

You could always groom planes at Keystone. They will even pay you 9 dollars and hour and give you one day off per week!!

The lowest paying job at Perimeter is 25% more pay than a place like Keystone or Fast Air (not going on actual fact for Fast Air). For pilots, Perimeter has no training bonds, start at 27K, max out at 120K in a 10 year span, work 16 days a month. Rampies start at 14 or 15 an hour.

I could be wrong but I don't think flapless was taking a shot at Perimeter. He or she was just stating the obvious. If you fly in Saskatchewan or Manitoba you get to do the odd KFC run. No need to get defensive about the company you so clearly work for. Out on the west coast it's all about the timmy runs. That's just the way it is.

[sstaurus]

airborn0710:
Skip past all the old timers who had jobs handed to them in their day. They are disconnected from reality. The fact is, as you are well aware, there are far more pilots than jobs, and the idea that we should all 'just say no!' and magically the operators will offer king air jobs starting at $50 000 to 250 hour wonders is a total fantasy. It's easy to tell a 250 guy without a job to 'have some balls and don't work the ramp' when you already have a flying job. You have a great attitude and you will get a flying job and go far. Put in your time, like everyone has to these days, and it will come.
As for your original question, CMA does take guys with your time (less than 250) as long as you've written the IATRA. However of course you are going to have to reach 250 by the time your number comes up for gs. Wait is ~2 years, I believe there's 10 guys on the list right now.
One day, when us young bucks are old and crusty, maybe there will be a pilot shortage, and newbies will be hunted down for turbine jobs. And we'll all whine and complain that 'no one has to pay their dues these days! Boy, in our day you had to WORK for that job and PROVE yourself to an employer! What a shame....'

x1000

[Randleman]

Brown Bear,

Don't forget, not EVERY place uses flying as a "dangling carrot." The company I am working on the ground for does not do that-they only put future pilot hopefuls on the ramp to fill space. A company like Keystone, is a different story. They work you on the ramp and say you'll get to fly if you do a good job, but have very little integrity in delivering that promise.

[North Shore]

est way to solve it? Don't want to stir the pot too much, but here's my radical solution.... Strip each and every flight school of their ability to grant a COMMERCIAL pilots licence. A guy who wants to fly his family around can still get a full multi-IFR...but wont be allowed to work for hire.

Have TC do a thorough audit and bidding for a limited amount of training academies who run their programs like Seneca and Selkirk. Only those schools will be allowed to train professional pilots for the industry.

Lots of applicants, maybe start with larger first year intakes which get weeded down based on their performance in studies and flight training. Voila.... Pilots will be back to being an elite, white collar profession again.

Yah, and all of those who can afford to go to Seneca and the like are going to be really happy doing all of the blue-collar jobs in Ft. LakeNowhere that there are out there

[OceansEdge]

The guys I went to Seneca with didn't seem to mind it too much

(and ya know I'm getting kind tired of this whole - anyone who goes the college route is some swaggering rich kid burnin' daddy's money stereotype - it wasn't 10 yrs ago and I doubt it is now. I went through I was a single mom - unemployed - and an accredited college programme was the ONLY way I could afford to keep flying - as it was eligible for full student loans - federal and provincial. Unlike the FTU that flat out lied to me about how they were JUST about ready to get their accreditation and I shouldn't worry - they be eligible for student loan status in NO time. And when my $7000 was gone - it was 'Oh so sorry - I forgot to tell you, we didn't qualify. Sorry 'bout that.' The college route is a perfectly viable option for many, and never in my mind a waste of time or money. Do try to remember it's not just a pilot's license you're getting out of it - but a college education TO BOOT.)

[Brown Bear]

Brown Bear,

Don't forget, not EVERY place uses flying as a "dangling carrot." The company I am working on the ground for does not do that-they only put future pilot hopefuls on the ramp to fill space. A company like Keystone, is a different story. They work you on the ramp and say you'll get to fly if you do a good job, but have very little integrity in delivering that promise.

You're correct, of course. Enough do use it as a carrot, then require you to take out a loan, or cough up money to continue your quest for a pilot's seat, to make it quite unsavoury. Hey, I realize we live in changing times. I'm just not sure the changes are always for the best. Bottom line. It's your money, your pride and your future. Not mine. Because I don't agree with a practice, that has become common place, does not make me less intelligent, or less in touch with reality than the rest of you. Proof? How many of you would jump at a right seat in an aircraft, with even a shit-bag company, than a ramp job with the best?

[aV1aTOr]

Brown Bear:
it has been pointed out to me, and I must admit, saying all old-timers had jobs handed to them in their day is sweeping and unfair. That aside, the same problem exists. If you were treated SO horribly back in your day in your first flying job, how is that so different from low timers working the ramp today?? Sure, you were flying an airplane. But they treated you like crap right? What excatly is the difference? As has been said, some companies really dangle the carrot and make false promises they don;t intend to keep to rampies. But many companies have established programs for low timers and do treat them fairly and a number on a list.
It would seem that taking that crappy bend-over flying job back in the day is no different than working the ramp and being treated fairly to boot.

[Brown Bear]

Brown Bear:
it has been pointed out to me, and I must admit, saying all old-timers had jobs handed to them in their day is sweeping and unfair. That aside, the same problem exists. If you were treated SO horribly back in your day in your first flying job, how is that so different from low timers working the ramp today?? Sure, you were flying an airplane. But they treated you like crap right? What excatly is the difference? As has been said, some companies really dangle the carrot and make false promises they don;t intend to keep to rampies. But many companies have established programs for low timers and do treat them fairly and a number on a list.
It would seem that taking that crappy bend-over flying job back in the day is no different than working the ramp and being treated fairly to boot.

After a year of flying the Doug, we had 1000 hours of DC3 time, and could move into the left seat. Where will you be after a year driving a fork lift around a ramp? 250 hours, and still looking for that first flying job? At any rate, you do whatever you want. You want to work a ramp for a year or more? Have at 'er.

[scopiton]

Sure, you were flying an airplane. But they treated you like crap right? What excatly is the difference?

the difference - like BB said - is that he was logging FLIGHT TIME.
between being treated like shit on the ramp or in a cockpit, I'd rather be in the cockpit.
obvious, but sometimes the obvious is hiding..... hehehe.......

[fish4life]

Brown Bear:
it has been pointed out to me, and I must admit, saying all old-timers had jobs handed to them in their day is sweeping and unfair. That aside, the same problem exists. If you were treated SO horribly back in your day in your first flying job, how is that so different from low timers working the ramp today?? Sure, you were flying an airplane. But they treated you like crap right? What excatly is the difference? As has been said, some companies really dangle the carrot and make false promises they don;t intend to keep to rampies. But many companies have established programs for low timers and do treat them fairly and a number on a list.
It would seem that taking that crappy bend-over flying job back in the day is no different than working the ramp and being treated fairly to boot.

After a year of flying the Doug, we had 1000 hours of DC3 time, and could move into the left seat. Where will you be after a year driving a fork lift around a ramp? 250 hours, and still looking for that first flying job? At any rate, you do whatever you want. You want to work a ramp for a year or more? Have at 'er.

I did my ramp time while doing a degree and working on my licenses at the same time. Just as I finished my degree I had 4 years of ramp under my belt and slid nicely into a right seat turbine job... how is this a bad choice at 21 I was flying a multi-turbine with a degree thanks to a great company to work for on the ramp where I had lots of fun... oh and they didn't pay crap on the ramp either so before you start bashing ramp jobs maybe you should see what people are actually doing out there