I've learn at school that they are dangerous inside, below and even at 20nm from it. You have many things that can affect the plane in a dangerous situation.
I've learned to avoid them and stay as far as possible from them.
But I always see some planes/copters going under it, or taking off right in it.
Is thunderstorms only affecting small planes?(but what about the copter i saw passing right under it)
Is there different intensity of thunderstorms? Like we can pass in a small one?
Or are these pilots just reckless and don't really care?
What about airline policies, they always let their plane land in them?
Thunderstorms are always different, some you need to be very far away others not so much. Most thunderstorms they can be only a few miles off the wing and you wont even feel a bump. I guess its all about reading the clouds.
I will get crapped on from a great height for saying this, but not every Cb is created equal.
A fast-moving, fast-vertically-growing Cb in a very humid and very unstable airmass with tops at 60k is a different animal than a sluggish Cb in more stable, dry air with tops below 30k.
Hedley wrote:I will get crapped on from a great height for saying this, but not every Cb is created equal.
A fast-moving, fast-vertically-growing Cb in a very humid and very unstable airmass with tops at 60k is a different animal than a sluggish Cb in more stable, dry air with tops below 30k.
It's all about the tops.
Crap away.
As someone who works around/under/beside them fairly often, I agree with H fully. There are places to be where it is safe, there are places to be (sometimes miles from it) that are not due to hail or wind shear and storm movement/direction. Sometimes a 180 or in my case getting to the ground fast is the only option, other times you can work quite comfortably in close proximity, but as with anything, appropriate knowledge is key.
I call BS on this guy. Anyone who has been to a aviation weather class in the last 50 years knows all about what happens when an airplane encounters a T'storm.
Unless I am mistaken, there is no explicit regulation regarding taking off or landing during a thunderstorm. When there's money involved, airplanes will fly in questionable weather conditions. It's up to you as the pilot to determine and mitigate the risks. Usually it works out fine, sometimes it doesn't. Read above posts to see there's no perfect answer, only rules of thumb and experience.
I'll agree with Hedley and stl about there being types of CB that can be handled an those that are to be avoided at all costs, although the ability to tell the difference between the two will come with experience and not from any book or video. I answered the way I did for that reason. Until you have some expreience, avoid is the word.
I had a very good friend who began his career in the military flying the Hump in a C-47, where you either learned very fast or you became very dead. In his experience moonsoon thunderstorms were ugly things, but were relatively benign compared to the monsters churned up in the southern US. He was also of the opinion that the CB's that are always found off the west coast of Africa, while pretty awful to look at, couldn't hold a candle to the home-grown variety right here in Canada. That was his opinion, and it must be remembered that he did much of his flying after the war for KLM on DC-4's which were not equipped with weather radar.
To further illustrate both Hedley's and stl's point, here are two experiences involving CB's. I did an IFR/PPC on the G1 in the summer of 1987. We were in Montreal and when the MoT inspector showed up for the ride a thunderstorm had moved to the vicinity of the airport. We agreed to taxi out and take a look at the radar to see what was what. The airwork was to take place up norht of Dorval around the Mirabel VOR with approaches at Mirabel. There were several cells around, but by doing a split-ass right turn off 24L the areas of heavy precip could be avoided. We took off, and the ride was uneventful, occasional light turbulence but very heavy rain. North of Dorval it was mostly broken cloud and the ride went well, although the missed approach at Mirabel had to be non-standard to avoid a cell sitting off the end of R29. End of story, no big deal. There were no high winds or heavy turbulence to contend with and it was a walk in the park.
A couple of years later we was returning from St. John's to Sept-Iles, via Wabush. There was no convective activity forecasted, but I had been listening to an AM radio station on an ADF and there was all kinds of static bursts, indicating there was some CB activity out there. A line of CB's had formed north of Baie Comeau, stretching NE and Wabush FSS had not recieved the SIGMET. We penetrated the line about 50 miles north of Sept-Iles and picked our way through on radar. By the time we finally broke out we were 30 miles west of the airport. By this time the line was about 10 miles north of the airport, a solid line of red on the radar. We were 10 miles final to R09, in the clear and cleared to land with the tower wind 140 at 12kt. At 8 miles final the wind began to shift, and at 5 miles the tower wind was 330 at 25. The wind continued to shift to the North and increase so that when we finally landed, on R05, the wind was 020 at 30 gusting to 45, with heavy rain and turbulence. If you must fool around with thunderstorms, may you always enjoy the former.
There are different phases, different types of thunderstorms and precipitation. With experience and careful planning, you can work with them. The key is to fully analyse the tops, the development and the displacement.
BUT
1- Taking off and landing in or close to them is a very bad idea.
2- Once in flight, avoid them by a good margin.
This afternoon I was returning from YWK to YHU. Delayed the departure because of many severe TS in Montreal. Once in flight, we had to zigzag in between many cells. Even 10 NM away we had turbulence, icing and the ADF was going crazy.
Sadly, like many things in life, you learn to deal with them from bad experiences.
My advice to you, if you fly a non pressurised, low performance, light piston aircraft, stay as far away as possible from any thunderstorm.
---------- ADS -----------
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
If you can get your hands on this book, it might be interesting reading for you.
Anvil of the Gods: Modern Airplanes Versus Violent Storms (Airmen & Aircraft)
Fred McClement (Author), Martin Caidin (Editor)
Although the book was written 40 years ago, the information about hail turbulence and so on is still relevant. A long time ago, I read about an airplane that entered a storm, executed a 180 degree turn, and flew out of the storm. The windows on one side of the airplane were broken by hail. I remember reading another story about an airplane that encountered a strong updraft that ended up lifting it to a high altitude where there was hail and severe icing and severe turbulence in IMC. A thunderstorm can have updrafts that exceed the maximum rate of descent of your airplane, and they can have downdrafts that exceed the maximum rate of climb of your airplane. Also the turbulence can be severe enough to exceed the maximum g-rating of your airframe.
They called it the anvil of the gods for good reason. Avoid them and live. At least until you can gain the experience to tell the difference between one thunderstorm and another.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by mdscientist61 on Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I was in cloud painting nothing but green and yellow, smooth as a babies arse, straining my left arm in order to pat myself on the back for avoiding the big nasty embedded cells when the Big Man Upstairs decided to bitchslap me with a quick bolt of lightning right on the tip of my prop. Yes, you should avoid thunderstorms. Sillyhead.
To this day whenever I see lightning in my general vicinity I pee a little.
Can't argue with much of what was said before. Two things I worry about are embedded Cb's that you really don't know are there (note no gucci radar or other stuff when I fly. But if prices keep coming down, maybe I'll get something with XM). The second one is being around all that metal on the runway while lightning is flashing off.
Was at the Ottawa airshow a good number of years back getting the airshow briefing for the day when one hit some 30 meters from us. There were a number of casualties, and if memory serves me correctly at least one fatality. I also had a friend get struck midair, blew a lot of his electronics to shit but managed to bring his fried craft home. And these electronics were hardened military ones. Those incidents have coloured my perspective just a bit.
The way I look at it now is that Cbs will give you no respect, so respect them.
Most of us will have or have had encounters of the direct kind and chances are more than once -- I can say it wasn't my most pleasant experience and having also been hit by lightning several times -- nope -- I much rather be drinking beer hands down.
Diverted to YOW (out of YUL) on Tuesday afternoon.
TS in the area.
I made minimums as was short final (maybe 100 ft agl) I could see lightning strikes on the field and the rain was incredibly heavy.
But the approach was stable, no turbulence really to speak of, and no wind shear. I got lucky. The biggest problem was the hydroplaning on the runway. On the flip side - going into midway a few months ago, no TS, just overcast, but the worst wind shear I've ever experienced at the bottom of the clouds, and again down close the the threshold.
Hedley is right - they are all different and can be treated differently.
However - if you don't have the right equipment, and the experience to know which is which, avoid them by at least 20nm. While I have no problem flying above or in close proximity to most CBs we get in BC, you won't catch me doing that with a storm coming up from the Dakotas or the Eastern States.
I've had smooth rides less than 5 miles from the edge of a cell, and moderate to severe turbulence 60 miles North of a line that went all the way from North Bay to South Dakota.
The biggest lesson I've learned is to trust your radar, but analyze it for errors as well. Attenuation can lead you to interpret a very nasty cell as "the way through" - I've done that, and it's not fun. When in doubt, give them lots of room, and if they're on your route, bring lots of gas...
On April 19, 2006, a Cessna 210 piloted by Crossfield was reported missing while flying from Prattville, Alabama toward Manassas, Virginia.[3] On April 20, authorities confirmed his body was found in the wreckage of his plane in a remote area of Gordon County, Georgia. There were severe thunderstorms in the area when air traffic monitors lost radio and radar contact with Crossfield's plane.[4][5]
...
The Gordon County Sheriff's department reported that debris from Crossfield's aircraft was found in three different locations within a quarter mile,[6] suggesting that the plane broke up while it was still in the air.
