Ideal Glider Tow Plane?

[Cat Driver]

I am wondering, is this smelly stuff hazardous to human health?

It only affects the brain, after to much exposure you end up posting to often on Avcanada.....

[lilfssister]

That 'splains a lot

[Alexey]

Where possible in Canada to fly on a plane An-2 ?

[Finn47]

Maybe it´s worth mentioning that the Helsinki U of Tech students once (early eighties) designed a glider towing aircraft from scratch, the Valmet PIK-23 Towmaster. The idea was to have a nose gear design so any pilot could easily adapt to it and it could also be used for basic training in the winter season when there´s no towing activity & be economical to own and operate. It wasn´t a big success, however, only two were built but those two are still active (reg OH-TOW and OH-TUG )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_PIK-23_Towmaster

[andymackay]

Hi all - we used to operate C172 at our club until engine blew at 1290hrs TTSO. Looking at replacement - Wilga, FK9 (100hp Rotax microlight) or restore C172. Im in favour of upgrade to Wilga or FK9 (impressive demonstration given at home field - 600fpm 2-up in towplane with Grob Twin 2-up. Wilga is cheap but "different" and maybe scary to our pilots - anyone know what they are like to fly? I hear fuel burn is 55litres per hour, but quick turnarounds. Our C172 takes 9mins minimum cycle to 2000ft. We charge $48 to 2000ft and another gliding operation in NZ charges their Wilga at $44 to 2000ft - a case of economy through quick turnaround?

We are small club, 35 members, Grob Twin2, Blanik (u/s), PW5, Std Astir, private gliders include LS4, Mosquito, Ka6, Kestrel. Pawnee rejected due to fabric maintenance, single seat.

[iflyforpie]

Hi all - we used to operate C172 at our club until engine blew at 1290hrs....

...Grob Twin2....

That's probably why your engine blew...

[RatherBeFlying]

It's not so much how fast you can get a glider to release height as how fast you can get down to launch the next glider without shock cooling your engine. Many clubs have detailed towplane let-down procedures with specific CHT and airspeed limits.

The Wilga is a great towplane, but like the C-172 and other towplanes, you have to take care of the engine. The round engine version came with louvers to help in temperature control.

[nacho]

We have a 260 if you want it. Sometimes we go spray yards for weddings and gatherings, but no so much fungicides due to the requierd high volume.
I flew it not long ago and although I havent been in one for sometime it's not a bad one.

[Brewguy]

Extra 300!! Best towplane ever, check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beu9QiOk3dE

Great video. I love the inverted aero tow!

I don't fly tugs, but am a long time glider guy. The Pawnee obviously kicks some serious ass as a tug, and drags you up to altitude pretty damn quick, no matter what kind of glider you're flying. That said, if you can't find one, I think the Scout is a pretty good option too. I mean, the Air Cadets have one of the largest gliding programs there is, and operate quite a large fleet of Scouts; there must have been some reason why they chose it. Yes, they still have some L-19's, but as has been pointed out, it being a "warbird" etc...

One advantage I can see with the Scout (or a Citabria), is it being a two seater. If your club only has one tug, it may not be a great idea to only have a single seater ... how would you do tow pilot training / check-outs? I'd suggest every club have at least one 2-seat tug to start. If you need to grow your fleet from there, by all means, fill in the ranks with Pawnees.

[Old Dog Flying]

Many years ago the Air Cadet League in Sask was given a C-182 by the DND...for a very small fee...and I trained a couple of their pilots to fly the thing. We also installed a tow hook on an STC.

The engine did not last the glider training session at Rivers! You cant operate an engine/aircraft like the Point A to Point B C-182 and expect it to last very long as the system is not designed for glider operations requiring slow speed tows and rapid cooling in descents.

And now the Air Cadets in BC have bought a C-182 to replace their L-19. Will they never learn?????

[challydriver]

I'm sorry to say, but I don't really think there's such a thing as one particular aircraft being the "Ideal Glider Tow Plane."

It would depend on how much you're willing to spend to acquire it (used/new), what's reasonable for maintenance costs and how busy your gliding operation is. Then there's also the question of training new pilots to fly it.

The Air Cadet Gliding Program started with surplus Cessna L-19s (currently there's 15 of them) that they acquired from Crown Assets in the early 1970's for a very reasonable price. The deal also included four ex-military L-182s, which were sold off within 2-3 years to raise funs for the L-19 fleet. Yes, the L-182 was not considered suitable for towing when compared to the L-19. Three of the schools kept the L-19s (and even added a few more to the fleet) but the other two schools switched to the Bellanca Scout (currently there's 16 of them). From what I understand, the switch to the Scout was not because the schools were unhappy with the L-19 but because of cost of maintaining them and that they didn't want to run a mixed fleet. Is the L-19 the ideal tow plane (probably not); is the Scout the ideal tow plane (probably not), but those two aircraft work well for the Air Cadet Gliding Program (as well as many clubs). By the way, it would seem that the Air Cadets are starting to convert their Continental O-470 (213HP) powered L-19s to Lycoming O-540 (250HP) powered L-19 "Superdogs."

Would this be the ideal tow plane?

I sure like the sounds of it but for a club without an L-19 to start with, how much does a Superdog cost?

A few years ago, the Air Cadet League of BC started looking at replacing their L-19 which has been in service almost 35 years (55 if you count the time with the CDN ARMY/CAF). They picked the EADS Wilga 2000 for a number of reasons but one of the more interesting requirements was that it had four seats so could be used for fam-flying cadets during the winter months (when the gliders are not flying). As we know, EADS cancelled production of the Wilga as a cost cutting measure. Is the Wilga the ideal tow plane (probably not) but it met the requirements that the gliding school was looking for.

What about a traditional PZL-104 Wilga with the radial engine?

With the Wilga 2000 being a "One of a Kind" aircraft the Air Cadet League of BC decided to sell it and open the competition for a new tow plane again. This time, the league decided that a modified Cessna 182P was the best choice. It still meets the requirements that the Wilga 2000 did and it has a nosewheel so it's easier to train new tow pilots. Is it the ideal tow plane (probably not) but it's probably pretty cost effective and meets the current requirements of the school. From what I've heard, it outperforms the O-470 powered L-19s in the fleet.

Whether or not it's a good tow plane I really don't know but it does look pretty cool. Check it out at: http://www.sealandaviation.com/blog/?tag=add-new-tag

SAC & SAA Clubs seem to love the Piper PA-25 Pawnee. Just the fact that so many clubs use them would indicate that it's a great tow plane. I also love the earlier positive comments people made about the Pawnee. There's no doubt about it, the Pawnee is on the top of the list for great tow planes but I don't know if it's ideal?

How do you train new pilots on a single-seat Pawnee?

Also, and as people pointed out, it's a fabric airframe. Some operations don't want a fabric tow plane. Will you need to store your tow plane in the winter months?

I once towed for a very small club that had one 150HP Champion 7GCAA Citabria. It was cheap to purchase, cheap on maintenance but it sure didn't perform ideally on the hot days. Also, unlike the 7GCBC, the 7GCAA had no flaps; flaps would have been nice. Overall, for size/budget of the club, it was a good aircraft but we didn't have any heavy fiberglass two seat sailplanes. Had a fiberglass trainer entered the fleet, the Citabria would no longer have been the ideal tow plane for us. Our club always wanted a Pawnee or an L-19.

Then there's the PA-18 Super Cub. Have you checked out the price of a used Super Cub?

I know the Super Cub is a good performer but "ouch" on the cost to acquire one. To me, that doesn't make it an ideal aircraft for a club that is looking for a tow plane. Maybe the 7GCBC Citabria is more cost effective for only a very slight loss in performance.

Or what about the Diamond Katana Xtreme?

It can tow a sailplane and it has a liquid cooled engine which would be great for the issue of shock cooling however, how long does the Extreme take to do a 2000, 3000 foot tow?

Maybe the operation could also use the Extreme for some of the initial training exercises?

Have you checked out the prices on new/used Extreme configured for towing?

There's also the Aviat A-1 Husky, the Maule M-5 & M-7, Cessna 150/152 with 150 HP engines, the Robin & the Ralley; the list goes on and on...

Regardless, any aircraft that is being used to tow gliders with an air-cooled piston engines will have issues with shock cooling, L-19, Scout, Super Cub, Citabria, Pawnee, & yes even the 182 all have this issue. It is important for the operation to develop procedures to reduce thermal-shock to the tug's engine and ensure all the tow pilots follow them. The L-19s used by the Air Cadets were horrible with high OATs. The Air Cadet L-19's used to have cylinders crack all the time on the L-19 due to poor handling by the pilots, until thermal shock procedures were introduced. Notice that all the Air Cadet L-19s now have venturi cowlings (funky little <<< shaped vents on the lower engine cowlings) and the openings for air intakes have been increased in size. Some the L-19s built by Ector have cowl flaps, which helps. The new Air Cadet L-19 Superdogs have venturi cowling & cowl flaps.

I always hate answer a question with a question however, but I would ask what's the ideal glider tow plane for your operation?

You probably already know the answer based on your operations requirements. It just depends what fits in to your operation.

Whatever you choose, have fun with it and don't hit anyone on the way up or down.

[SuperchargedRS]

I've had good experiences with a Callair A-9, built from the ground up to haul alot, lands on anything, built like a truck




The ideal tow plane is a Pawnee or a Callair (or a BIG wench), at least that's what all the big outfits use.

[Pratt X 3]

I've had good experiences with a Callair A-9, built from the ground up to haul alot, lands on anything, built like a truck. The ideal tow plane is a Pawnee or a Callair (or a BIG wench), at least that's what all the big outfits use.

I find these wenches can carry a big load and manage to get things up but never on the airfield (unless all the gliders are back in the hangar!)

[SuperchargedRS]

*winch

My mind must have been....elsewhere lol

[culver10]

I totally agree with the above comments about the Callair. I have worked on many Pawnees and also a Callair. The Callair is built like a tank compared tp the PA-25. The drooping airlerons with the large effective flaps are a big bonus. Also the injected 290HP IO-540 on the A-9B is a great engine. I know of a A-9B tow plane located in central Alberta that is for sale, PM me if interested.

[Finnegan]

Something to look at if you're thinking of buying a Pawnee - the tube cluster at the base of the fuselage near the trailing edge can get corroded and it's a major structural point. As far as the smell - you'll get used to it very quickly, but people may shy away from you because it will permeate your clothes in short order. I flew Pawnees a few thousand hours and got poisoned a couple of times. (insecticides and a leaky hopper) Years ago, we would clean nozzles without gloves (I know, not too bright, but we didn't know any better). Now, if I could just get rid of that pesky third ear...

[V1 Rotate]

The 182 used by the BC Air Cadets is modified with a larger engine and it was mostly bought to replace the Wilga. It's cabin has also been "militarized" as well as an electronic engine monitoring system installed.

[structurespilot]

I sure everyones opinion would be different on this, but I tow banners in a C150 with a 180 HP engine conversion. Works great hear at 3500 ft. C150 has a factory tow hook you can order, and install. Best of all Cessna approves of the hook install, its not an STC, just optional equip. Ever notice most C150's have a rearview miror on the dash, thats why. I wouldn't think of it with the factory engine, the 180HP is key.
Super cubs and Champs are both good, but its harder to find low time pilots that have the tailwheel experience that you insurance will require.

That's my two cents.

[jonas]

Pipistrel Virus SW,


It tows much better than the Citabria, and you can use the spoilers to descend at 4,500 fpm.
fuel burn is maximum 5gph using premium unleaded.

No shock cooling either, since it's liquid cooled heads on the 912ULS engine.

$13,000 for an engine rebuild after 2000 hours.

empty weight is 635lbs, so the horsepower isn't wasted on the tow plane.
(climbs at 1700fpm when not towing, and cruises at 147 knots.)

Registered as either an Advanced Ultralight, or Amateur Built.