How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
... and as far as the provocative and Edited comment is concerned, you didn't miss much Blakey. I don't think it would have made you lose any sleep.
Peace out.
jjj
Peace out.
jjj
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
All is forgiven! 

Last edited by Blakey on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you!
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Not me, there must be more than one JJJ out there.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
JJJ, I would suggest that you have another look at your FMS - Collins allows you to input the runway length if it is different than the database, ie YXX with a runway under maintenance. I would bet yours will do that too. In fact, there are a couple of guys at work with Boeing experience, I will ask them. I will bet dollars to donuts that you don't get the manuals out and use the charts to work out your performance on a shortened runway.
If you know your FMS 100%, you are the very first pilot I have ever met who does. I'll bet you are the only pilot on the planet that does.
Despite your obfuscation, you can't honestly believe that this crew can have properly assessed this runway anomaly? I'll stand by my opinion, these guys are incredibly lucky that there was not a large hole to fall into.
"XSBank, you are throwing out a narrow list of possible scenarios." That's funny, JJJ, as I also said: "God just reached down to smite them, but He missed."
If you know your FMS 100%, you are the very first pilot I have ever met who does. I'll bet you are the only pilot on the planet that does.
Despite your obfuscation, you can't honestly believe that this crew can have properly assessed this runway anomaly? I'll stand by my opinion, these guys are incredibly lucky that there was not a large hole to fall into.
"XSBank, you are throwing out a narrow list of possible scenarios." That's funny, JJJ, as I also said: "God just reached down to smite them, but He missed."
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
I seem to remember an AC widebody going slightly off one side of a runway several months ago (I believe the nose-wheel was in the grass by a number of inches) and it was all over the news
WJ has had a number of fairly serious runway issues in the last several years, and none of them have ever made the news, or gotten anywhere near the attention
WJ has had a number of fairly serious runway issues in the last several years, and none of them have ever made the news, or gotten anywhere near the attention
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
xsbank, didn't mean to be so provocative. For your edification in regards to our ACARS landing distance calculator, should the runway be shortened via NOTAM, the calculator would not accept the full length runway designator for it's landing distance calculations.
For instance, CYYZ currently has the following active NOTAM:
So, a swing and a miss on that speculation.
Respectfully submitted.
For instance, CYYZ currently has the following active NOTAM:
If a crew attempted to send data for "full length runway 23", the server would return the message "INVALID RUNWAY" or such. A different code would thus be entered to determine the landing distance on this shortened runway.100420 CYYZ TORONTO/LESTER B.PEARSON INTL
CYYZ THR 23 DISPLACED 200 FT BEYOND PUB DTHR DUE OBST
1100 FT NE OF PUB DTHR 23, 38 FT AGL, 592 MSL, MARKED BY
ORANGE MARKERS AND WING BAR LGT EITHER SIDE OF RWY.
DECLARED DIST:
RWY 05: TORA 11120 TODA 11435 ASDA 11120 LDA 10985
RWY 23: TORA 11120 TODA 12104 ASDA 11120 LDA 10435
So, a swing and a miss on that speculation.
Respectfully submitted.
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
In the rush to cover for/bash Westjet I think the lesson of this incident has been lost. Runway shortened for maintainance/construction can be pilot traps especially when the runway looks OK except for the markings. On short final you see the whole thing and so the urgency to get the wheels on the runway may be less obvious.
my 02 cents
1) There could have been holes, ditches,, equipment etc etc in the closed portion which would have made this overrun a lot worse. Fortunately they got away with no damage but this was mostly due to good luck. To call the incident a non event IMO fails to acknowledge the potential seriousness of what happened.
2) A well trained crew in a servicable aircraft in relatively good conditions screwed up so if they can do it, so could I. Therefore I am going to plant a little flag in my brain and the next time I am landing on a runway with a closed portion I am going to make a extra reminder to make sure I consider the implications of the altered runway environment.
3) This is not a Westjet incident, or an airline incident, or even a jet incident. The factors that influenced this overrun apply to everyone including the 172 drivers.
my 02 cents
1) There could have been holes, ditches,, equipment etc etc in the closed portion which would have made this overrun a lot worse. Fortunately they got away with no damage but this was mostly due to good luck. To call the incident a non event IMO fails to acknowledge the potential seriousness of what happened.
2) A well trained crew in a servicable aircraft in relatively good conditions screwed up so if they can do it, so could I. Therefore I am going to plant a little flag in my brain and the next time I am landing on a runway with a closed portion I am going to make a extra reminder to make sure I consider the implications of the altered runway environment.
3) This is not a Westjet incident, or an airline incident, or even a jet incident. The factors that influenced this overrun apply to everyone including the 172 drivers.
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Exactly. In fact, the ICAO standards for closing a section of runway when there's a "large hole to fall into" at the end of it, are to:xsbank wrote: I'll stand by my opinion, these guys are incredibly lucky that there was not a large hole to fall into.
i) issue a NOTAM,
ii) lay a large white plywood "X" on the ground in of the large hole,
iii) place a sandbags on top of the plywood, and finally
iv) put red lights in front of the large hole (for night-time operations)
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
There was a bloody notam. The runway was lonng enough. They screwed up. Westjet does not get the same treatment in the media that AC does. Everyone loves to hate the big guy. When westjet becomes a big guy they better improve there training. Enough said...
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
SQ006 didn't exit the runway surface either but they managed to kill a lot of people. The people on this flight are lucky the barricades weren't more solid.
Running of the end of a runway in a transport category airplane is serious! Not saying it should be in the media though. They would only sensationalize it and mess up the most basic of facts. I'm sure Westjet is treating it as a serious incident though.
Running of the end of a runway in a transport category airplane is serious! Not saying it should be in the media though. They would only sensationalize it and mess up the most basic of facts. I'm sure Westjet is treating it as a serious incident though.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about our training - which is pretty damn good if I do say so myself.buss wrote:There was a bloody notam. The runway was lonng enough. They screwed up. Westjet does not get the same treatment in the media that AC does. Everyone loves to hate the big guy. When westjet becomes a big guy they better improve there training. Enough said...
Also, regardless of what company you fly for, what plane you fly, where you fly, and how great a flying demigod you may think you are, one day you’re going to make a mistake. It may be something small, it may not be. We all make mistakes. The lesson here is to try to gleam what can be learned from this and add it to our tool box. We all need reminders, this is one. The lesson here is it CAN HAPPEN ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, TO ANYONE. Stay vigilant.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
To the OP, no airline can manipulate the media. I can assure you that Westjet did not call any of the news wires to ask them to hold the story.
Not all stories make their way into newsrooms. On top of that, not all stories make it to the paper or the front page. There are all kinds of incidents with airlines that the press never find out about. This was one of them.
Not all stories make their way into newsrooms. On top of that, not all stories make it to the paper or the front page. There are all kinds of incidents with airlines that the press never find out about. This was one of them.
bmc
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
I don't think it was such a huge deal because from the original post it sounded like they went off the end of the runway. From my understanding this image the clipping portrays sounds a lot worse than it actually was. From what I understand the runway was under construction and there was confusion as to the markers that showed the part runway was which was not usable for landing. He was still on the runway technically. He did not go off the end. But I won't speculate anymore until I hear the full details.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
KAG over running the end of the runway seems to be a recurring problem with Westjet
so I guess you guys aren't learning from your mistakes. I don't want my family to be on
board when it becomes a lot more serious. I wouldn't be all smiles and raving how great
Westjet is because they handed out free bottles of water to the survivers.
so I guess you guys aren't learning from your mistakes. I don't want my family to be on
board when it becomes a lot more serious. I wouldn't be all smiles and raving how great
Westjet is because they handed out free bottles of water to the survivers.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
I'm off to work so I'll respond to your post later. EDITED
JJJ
JJJ
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
The 737 in general has one of the worst overrun accident/incident records of any modern airliner. India (Mangalore 2010), Indonesia (Manokwari 2010), Turkey (Instanbul 2009), USA (Chicago 2005), take your pick, those are only a few that come to mind.
You'd think maybe it would become more of a briefing point. Throw in a runway that's shortened by NOTAM and oops!
Not sure what a FMS will do to help/hinder stopping in the runway available? Know the length, calculate the weight and autobrake setting, and done...? But you can't get away with floating it forever. If you have poor landing zone discipline you can toss your performance numbers out the window.
I'm not sure why the particular type is this way. I used to fly it and there were a few times where it was a bit uncomfortable on 5000-6000ft runways. I suspect it's a combination of the fact that 73's are in kind of a medium everything category, weight and the type of airport usually being operated into. Guys flying into short strips all the time or landing very heavy aircraft tend be more disciplined about aiming points and stopping distances. And it's a light enough a/c that if you primarily operate into 10,000ft runways you can get away with sloppy technique. Perhaps coupled with it being the first transport category a/c most guys have flown and it handles so beautifully, like a lighter a/c. I dunno. Hopefully WS can learn from it. Not saying technique was at fault here, but it's certainly an issue with the type.
Gives me the willies though, every time I hear about someone running out of pavement before airspeed. I don't care if it was slow or if it ran into a cardboard box, it's still seriously wrong.
You'd think maybe it would become more of a briefing point. Throw in a runway that's shortened by NOTAM and oops!
Not sure what a FMS will do to help/hinder stopping in the runway available? Know the length, calculate the weight and autobrake setting, and done...? But you can't get away with floating it forever. If you have poor landing zone discipline you can toss your performance numbers out the window.
I'm not sure why the particular type is this way. I used to fly it and there were a few times where it was a bit uncomfortable on 5000-6000ft runways. I suspect it's a combination of the fact that 73's are in kind of a medium everything category, weight and the type of airport usually being operated into. Guys flying into short strips all the time or landing very heavy aircraft tend be more disciplined about aiming points and stopping distances. And it's a light enough a/c that if you primarily operate into 10,000ft runways you can get away with sloppy technique. Perhaps coupled with it being the first transport category a/c most guys have flown and it handles so beautifully, like a lighter a/c. I dunno. Hopefully WS can learn from it. Not saying technique was at fault here, but it's certainly an issue with the type.
Gives me the willies though, every time I hear about someone running out of pavement before airspeed. I don't care if it was slow or if it ran into a cardboard box, it's still seriously wrong.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
You hit it there... touchdown zone discipline.complexintentions wrote: Guys flying into short strips all the time or landing very heavy aircraft tend be more disciplined about aiming points and stopping distances. And it's a light enough a/c that if you primarily operate into 10,000ft runways you can get away with sloppy technique.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Collins FMS-6000
- Attachments
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Runway length.pdf
- (111.29 KiB) Downloaded 91 times
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Wow, to listen to you guys speculate, this crew must have floated 4000' past the touch down zone, then exited the surface at a high rate of speed while standing on the brakes, tires on fire, with full reverse thrust screaming. All the while never considering the option of a go-around because of the sub standard training dished out by a bunch of low-rent cowboys who don't understand an FMS.
GROW UP KIDS. I believe they were essentially at taxi speed, and confused about the markings. With any luck we will all be a little safer and more aware due to this incident.
GROW UP KIDS. I believe they were essentially at taxi speed, and confused about the markings. With any luck we will all be a little safer and more aware due to this incident.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
No speculation from me, just agreeing with complexintentions although I have been on several flights in the back deadheading when there has been an awful lot of float from carriers on this and the other side of the border. The predominant cause of runway over runs are long landings from unstable approaches and cases where the speedbrake is not armed.FOX69 wrote:Wow, to listen to you guys speculate, this crew must have floated 4000' past the touch down zone,
Westjet's overrun in YOW was due to both factors. The EMJ overrun in YOW this summer was due to a very long landing. We'll see what the cause of the WJ YXX incident is in due time but not stopping the aircraft in the available landing distance is a biggie.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
FOX69 you must have been one of the pilots flying it. You start by blasting us for speculating then proceed to say you think they were confused about the markings. Either way I bet it took you more than one try to pass your radio operater licence because anyone who didn't
understand what the markings were and decided to just keep going straight through them
must have eaten a few paint chips as a kid.
understand what the markings were and decided to just keep going straight through them
must have eaten a few paint chips as a kid.
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Taxi speed or not they went outside the runway boundary. Somebody wasn't paying attention. The B737NG can be safely landed in the distance available; and stopped. If it wasn't then something was wrong either equipment,procedures or awareness. To say other or make excuses is just that!
Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Using the logic of the "no biggy" crowd on here lets say that same aircraft with those shiny new tires took off and then missed a Cathay Pacific 747 on approach by 50 feet and both later landed uneventfully, then its a "no biggy" either. 

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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
Want a medal?hnl wrote:I fly the biggest airplane in the country and yes this indeed is a biggie. Had it been AC........
"Six of us broke formation, five Jerries and I". - George "Buzz" Beurling
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Re: How does WestJet keep this stuff out of the news??
That's great. We use the Smiths FMC. No runway length input, but we have a landing distance calculator that you input the runway, CRFI or reported runway condition or braking action from a similar type (none/good/fair/poor/nil), some environmental's, flap setting, and weight. Send that off and you get an ACARS back with the required runway length for each autobrake setting. If the stopping distance exceeds the runway length, you get a message back saying "LANDING DISTANCE EXCEEDED" If you enter a NOTAM'd runway without the coding for the reduced length, you receive a message stating "INVALID RUNWAY".xsbank wrote:Collins FMS-6000