Superior Airways Ramp Job

[Gorgons]

$2000.00 a month salary

2080 hrs per year = $11.50 per hour

Many operators like to offer salaries instead of an hourly rate, their thinking seems to be that if you are a salaried employee they don't have to pay you overtime. That notion is simply not true and a violation of the federal labour code. Don't know if that's the intent in this situation but its a red flag.

I wonder how many hours per day are expected? Is it a Monday to Friday shift, weekends off? Or is it the typical Oh Stupid Thirty to Last Aircraft in the Barn O'clock, six or seven days a week.

[medEvac]

supply and demand!!!

2000 per month with housing isnt all that bad considering some one out there would do it for free...

now dont get me wrong i would love it if we all made more but i believe mike gives bonuses to his employees on top of that.

2-6 months at that wage and then you are flying and making way more.

there is a single pilot ifr competitor to superior in winnipeg that only pays their pilots 2500/mth, maybe thats a bigger problem

[LegoMan]

Deduct $450 out of your $2000 for housing. Considering it's Red Lake and most likely the person hired has a shit box for a car that mom and dad handed down to them because its so old and shitty the only thing left to pay is food and booze in which case you're still ballin.

[iflyforpie]

I have heard there are some interesting 'benefits' that come with working for Superior (so I hear... the use of a boat, dirt bikes, etc). For a guy trying to start out this might not be a bad place.

The only thing that irks me is flying job not guaranteed, yet CPL and IFR (which is already on its way to expiry) is required.

[Brown Bear]

The only thing that irks me is flying job not guaranteed, yet CPL and IFR (which is already on its way to expiry) is required.

So that "irks" you? They run an ad for a ramp person. You might get to fly....you might not. Frankly, I think that's better than telling you that you will fly....and then you don't?
If you want a guaranteed flying job.....don't apply to work on a ramp. This is not rocket science here. You're a pilot, sort of, keep your ratings and such up to date.
Keep in mind, this is a single pilot operation, so don't expect to be cut loose in a 'ho with 300 hours.

[Changes in Latitudes]

But you could be cut loose in their 206 with those hours. Just know when to say "NO!" to the owner.

[Brown Bear]

But you could be cut loose in their 206 with those hours. Just know when to say "NO!" to the owner.

I know the owner fairly well. If you do stand up to him and say "no", he'll respect that. But it is good advice. Anywhere.

[YWGGuy]

I have known some people who have worked at this outfit. Essentially it is a get to work at 0'dark thirty and then go home 16 hours later 7 day a week gig. It seems that he is picky on who flies his aircraft, and does not let lazy workers/poor pilots fly the fact of the matter is he encourages low experience pilots to fly when the weather is IFR, VFR because of the "high" MDA's at certain airports. While this may be fine for some guy who has been doing it for years - most of the people he has working for him do not have that experience at the start.

Remember folks, when it comes down to it and you do not feel good about a flight: SAY NO it may seem hard in your first job, worried about kissing ass to the boss, but you want to at the end of the day survive and make it past these companies there is a difference between "balancing making money against dealing with weather" and being down right stupid. It is all about self-preservation.

[into the blue]

Essentially it is a get to work at 0'dark thirty and then go home 16 hours later 7 day a week gig.

I have no problem moving to some godforsaken place and working hard to prove I am a reliable person, but...I would also want to be paid at least what would be equivalent to a minimal wage ($10.25/hr in Ontario), which clearly is not the case here:

16hrs/work day x 28 work days/month (i.e. 2-3 days off/month) = 448hrs/month;

2,000$/month ∕ 448hrs/month = 4.46$/hr (and that is before taxes and the housing deduction).

And those "benefits"? If that schedule really is true, you simply won't have time for anything other than cooking pasta and sleeping.

[flyinthebug]

Once again, a position with a decent op, decent owner, and "average" ramp pay, is now going to be slagged because some math major likes to work the #`s to suit his fancy. I get sooooo tired of the whining that goes on on this board! Its a decent job, and god forbid, you may have to work hard. Did you account for all the perks that go along with the job? or the days when there is no flying and you sit on your a$$ all day? This new generation of pilots is scary to me. Tell me gentlemen, what do you feel is a fair wage for this position? Maybe double what is being offered? Seriously, tell me what a rampie with 200 hours should make? When he/she is looking after 3-4 small aircraft and other ramp duties? 4000$ 5000$ a month? Do tell!

As for Superior Airways, MM is a decent guy and treats his people with respect and is known to be a fair owner. 2000$ a month to ramp for 2 Hos and 1-206 (unless his fleet had grown since 2007) is fair and offers a good opportunity to see some real world flying from the right seat...and work your way to the left.

[YWGGuy]

I think the issue here is not so much the pay, but the fact that he runs it so you are there from first flight to last flight 7 days a week. When comparing the "new generation" of pilots to the "old generation" there is a substantial difference, my dad flew on the coast for 2 years in a PA-31 and got hired at AC earning a decent wage. Now the "new generation" actually has to spent many years before getting a shot at AC (or WS) so we actually have to live with these conditions for many years. I know not everyone wants to go to AC or WS but for those that do it is a much longer road, and the pay at the end is not nearly what it used to be. Forgive us if we want livable conditions before we turn 30. For the record I never worked at Superior, however I have known people who have all my knowledge is second hand. I think the turn over rate there should say it all.

[LegoMan]

I think the issue here is not so much the pay, but the fact that he runs it so you are there from first flight to last flight 7 days a week. When comparing the "new generation" of pilots to the "old generation" there is a substantial difference, my dad flew on the coast for 2 years in a PA-31 and got hired at AC earning a decent wage. Now the "new generation" actually has to spent many years before getting a shot at AC (or WS) so we actually have to live with these conditions for many years. I know not everyone wants to go to AC or WS but for those that do it is a much longer road, and the pay at the end is not nearly what it used to be. Forgive us if we want livable conditions before we turn 30. For the record I never worked at Superior, however I have known people who have all my knowledge is second hand. I think the turn over rate there should say it all.

Exactly, I know a guy that went from flight school to instructing to 2nd officer at AC a year later back in the 80's. Now enjoying left seat on the 767. It's not that the new generation is lazy, it's that they have to spend a decade climbing a ladder of shit before they get a shot at something decent.

[loopa]

Correct me if I am wrong. 2k/month = 24k/year

Can somebody name of at least 4 well established 704 operations that hire F/O's and pay less than that / year? and work them hard as well?

It's great to see that everyone understand that we deserve to be paid more, but fact of the matter is, when it comes to doing something about it, the majority of us pull aside and let "the other guy" take care of it. Or we are too scared to say anything to our boss because we risk getting fired, and have mortgages to pay, etc.

So just like every one, suck it up, go to work, and learn a thing or two. You can't put a price on the experience you gain - especially since the most of you are mentioning that it's a decent company. Try going to work for a sketchy company, and then have to suck it up. I know nothing about Superior Airways, and am taking every one's word about it with a grain of salt. But it seems that finding some place "decent" for a low timer is basically as hard as trying to neutralize water in a mug when you're walking. I honestly don't think that there's a perfect company. If you find a perfect company, let us know! While there are GREAT companies, you will always find the odd person, or odd SOP that makes people speak up and complain about. Even the top of the top companies have their issues. What I think is important is that you join a company where you know that your goals are very close to the company goals. Because if they are, you're on the same page and will most likely develop a very good working relationship with your colleagues / management. When your goals are different, all of a sudden the negative perks of a company will shout at your face, and you will actually use those as reasons for not putting in the amount of work required, and start developing a bad working condition.

For most low timers, they have most likely at some point going through a company or two where their goals were not on par with the company. But from here, they built experience to which they can deem valuable in the selection process of companies to walk in resume's to in prospect towards future employment.

Best of luck

[into the blue]

Seriously, tell me what a rampie with 200 hours should make? When he/she is looking after 3-4 small aircraft and other ramp duties? 4000$ 5000$ a month? Do tell!

If you only want to pay $2,000 per month for this position, then please tailor the number of work hours so that you at least stay within the law. Am I crazy to look for a minimal wage? Is this way too much to ask? There certainly are ramp/dock jobs where you get paid an above-minimal wage, plus the overtime and all that.

[loopa]

Seriously, tell me what a rampie with 200 hours should make? When he/she is looking after 3-4 small aircraft and other ramp duties? 4000$ 5000$ a month? Do tell!

If you only want to pay $2,000 per month for this position, then please tailor the number of work hours so that you at least stay within the law. Am I crazy to look for a minimal wage? Is this way too much to ask? There certainly are ramp/dock jobs where you get paid an above-minimal wage, plus the overtime and all that.

You're right, but for people who only attempt to send e-mails through avcanada job ads, and on top of that, never go and meet companies in person? Do you think they will find these jobs? It might be rare, but I'm going to predict that the answer to that is no. But you're right, there certainly are some great companies to work the ramp for.

[Brown Bear]

Once again, a position with a decent op, decent owner, and "average" ramp pay, is now going to be slagged because some math major likes to work the #`s to suit his fancy. I get sooooo tired of the whining that goes on on this board! Its a decent job, and god forbid, you may have to work hard. Did you account for all the perks that go along with the job? or the days when there is no flying and you sit on your a$$ all day? This new generation of pilots is scary to me. Tell me gentlemen, what do you feel is a fair wage for this position? Maybe double what is being offered? Seriously, tell me what a rampie with 200 hours should make? When he/she is looking after 3-4 small aircraft and other ramp duties? 4000$ 5000$ a month? Do tell!

As for Superior Airways, MM is a decent guy and treats his people with respect and is known to be a fair owner. 2000$ a month to ramp for 2 Hos and 1-206 (unless his fleet had grown since 2007) is fair and offers a good opportunity to see some real world flying from the right seat...and work your way to the left.

Herein lies the problem (at least ONE of them) with hiring pilots for ramp jobs. These pilots have an overblown sense of entitlement. The guy posts a job, at a time when some of you snot nosed little brats would reportable kill your own mother for a job, and you slag it. I you don't want the frikken job, don't apply. Don't bitch and complain about it here. We just don't give a rat's ass.

[flyinthebug]

I think the issue here is not so much the pay, but the fact that he runs it so you are there from first flight to last flight 7 days a week. When comparing the "new generation" of pilots to the "old generation" there is a substantial difference, my dad flew on the coast for 2 years in a PA-31 and got hired at AC earning a decent wage. Now the "new generation" actually has to spent many years before getting a shot at AC (or WS) so we actually have to live with these conditions for many years. I know not everyone wants to go to AC or WS but for those that do it is a much longer road, and the pay at the end is not nearly what it used to be. Forgive us if we want livable conditions before we turn 30. For the record I never worked at Superior, however I have known people who have all my knowledge is second hand. I think the turn over rate there should say it all.

I can appreciate all you say here YWGguy. My Uncle had the same fate..swept floors for AC for 18 months, then stepped into the right seat of an Electra (sp?). I do understand its a longer road to the majors now then it was several decades ago. Its the sense of "entitlement" that the new grads have that concerns me. I have never seen the crew house in YRL for Superior, but I also havent heard anything negative about it, so I assume the digs are ok. You can live in the north and still enjoy a nice home. I had a great 3 bdrm condo in YEV and lived very well.

I watched Superior open their doors from the same field. I talked to the young crew he had and most of the guys enjoyed their experience there. I Understand that he may have you there for the 1st and last flight of the day...but again ill say that with only 3 small aircraft to ramp for all day everyday, how hard can that be? Im sure you get several hours in between flights to run home or do whatever business you may need to do. All in all its a decent place to start.

loopa...In answer to your question...Bearskin Airlines, Thunder Airlines, Central Mountain Air, Air Georgian, and Transwest Airlines... just off the top of my head. Bearskin new hire F/0`s earn close to 30K a yr if they time out..doing 14 take off and landings a day. CMA guys are lucky to make 19K a yr. Heck, even Jazz new hires only start around 33K. So relatively speaking, 24K a yr to start isnt so bad.

[Gorgons]

Okay here is my take on the job posting; it starts off by clearly stating they are looking for a full-time ramp attendant. Not a pilot, not an AME, just a plain old ramp attendant, no licenses, and no endorsements required position. I quote “This is not a flying position; however the opportunity to advance to a flying position will be available to the right candidate. People that are looking for a guaranteed advancement to a flying position need not apply.”

Bottom line, it’s a carrot. Upfront I’m telling you it’s a ramp position, not a flying position but out of the other side of my mouth I also saying but there’s a chance, just a chance… no promises, no guarantees.

So if I’m a prospective employee that is looking at the position as stated, a ramp attendant, not a flying position It would seem I get weeded out by the second paragraph.

Perhaps I’m not a pilot; I won’t meet his ideal candidate requirements of having a pilot’s license. Even worse I won’t have the all important current Mutli IFR.

Which is it, are you looking for a good candidate to fill a full-time ramp position or are you looking for a pilot that will try and grab the carrot?

The pay as stated is also an issue; it’s listed as a salaried position. Perhaps everybody on here thinks it’s acceptable for a pilot to accept a $2000.00 per month salary and get used and abused in the name of paying your dues.

But what about the guy that just wants to work on the ramp, a person that views it as a good job or a stepping stone job to the big ramps in YYZ, YWG, YUL etc. His wife and kids aren’t moving into the company flop house, so rent without utilities is more like $750.00 and up. Add a phone, some credit card bills, car payment and insurance, groceries. Better hope the wife, girlfriend or significant other is able to secure employment as well or you are sunk.

If you are in fact paid an overtime rate for anything above 40 hrs per week, then okay. The next concern becomes days off.

Can’t say I’ve ever met anybody that wants a job that has no scheduled days off or one every other Sunday.

MM has been pretty quiet on this whole thread; he usually chimes in to correct inaccuracies or speculation.

What say you?

[Changes in Latitudes]

Okay here is my take on the job posting; it starts off by clearly stating they are looking for a full-time ramp attendant. Not a pilot, not an AME, just a plain old ramp attendant, no licenses, and no endorsements required position.

What did you take this as?

The ideal candidate will have recently completed a CPL multi-IFR, with little or no flying experience aside from flight school.

[Gorgons]

Well I thought it was an ad for a ramp attendant, but upon further reflection and by the comments posted it would seem they are advertising for a pilot... correction, a low time pilot with a current multi IFR.

It appears a low time pilot with a current multi instrument rating is this company's idea of what an ideal ramp attendant candidate should look like on paper.

However its a one way street, you come to them with the desired ramp attendant qualifications and you get ahhhhh oh yeah a ramp job with the understanding that its not a flying position and anybody that thinks its going to lead to a flying position should not apply!

Not even a thinly veiled carrot!

[Brown Bear]

The pissing and moaning continues. I hasten to point out, that the F/O at Bearskin, making 30K a year, had to cough up ten thousand dollars, right up front for the privilege of working for that 30K. And some say this industry isn't totally fucked!

[fingersmac]

Well I thought it was an ad for a ramp attendant, but upon further reflection and by the comments posted it would seem they are advertising for a pilot... correction, a low time pilot with a current multi IFR.

It appears a low time pilot with a current multi instrument rating is this company's idea of what an ideal ramp attendant candidate should look like on paper.

However its a one way street, you come to them with the desired ramp attendant qualifications and you get ahhhhh oh yeah a ramp job with the understanding that its not a flying position and anybody that thinks its going to lead to a flying position should not apply!

Not even a thinly veiled carrot!

Huh?

I read it as come work the ramp and providing you're not lazy, have a poor attitude or a total moron then you'll eventually get flying. You just have to earn it not expect it.

[flyinthebug]

Huh?

I read it as come work the ramp and providing you're not lazy, have a poor attitude or a total moron then you'll eventually get flying. You just have to earn it not expect it.

[/quote]

fingersmac...You said in two lines, what i`ve been politely trying to say in several paragraphs. WELL said! You and Brown Bear get it.. why do so many not?

To add to what BB pointed out about Bearskin salary and bond, there are MANY other companies that pay new hire F/0`s less then 24K to start, and ask for $$$ upfront. If there is a young guy/gal reading this thread, I would urge you to get your teeth cut at a place like Superior. The maintenance is good, pay is fair, owner is reasonable, and life in YRL is pretty damn cool! I maintain that working the ramp (for fair pay and opportunity) is the best way to learn the ins and outs of real world flying. Even if its just listening to the pilots as you load their plane...ask questions and hear their wx decisions and pay attention to why they made them. Throw some bags, meet some people, learn some things and enjoy the ride! CYRL is sincerely one of the nicer places to be based. I started in YRL... 0.26 per SM (no base) on a 206 and flew my a$$ off to make 1800 a month...and was some of the best flying I ever did and met some of the best people there too! My 2 cents.

[Gorgons]

Wow, just wow! Ad says Ramp Attendant… but not just a person with the aptitude, intelligence and physical ability for the position, they want the prospective applicant to bring a current multi engine IFR to the party.

The ad doesn’t say if you work hard, display a great attitude and I like you it will eventually become a flying position. It says clearly “this is not a flying position”. No promises, no guarantee, period.

A great number of you are basically saying this is secret code for its not a ramp job really, its just paying your dues. He doesn’t really mean its not a flying position, if you tough it out it will work out in the end.

Wake up folks…This is the proverbial piñata and I’m surprised by the number of people that are saying go ahead put on the blindfold and take a swing, maybe you’ll get the prize inside!

What they really want is to get some help on the ramp, the hours are long and days off can be difficult to predict because it’s a non scheduled charter operation. Truth be told, nothing wrong with that, hundreds of operators have that business model. The phone rings and off to work you go, the rub is that you also need people to handle the other functions that come along with it. Things like maintenance, grooming, ground handling, fuel (I understand he recently purchased the ESSO in YRL).

Now he could go out and hire true dedicated ramp attendants but I’m guessing the reality is that he can’t find one guy to work the hours he needs for the salary being offered. It appears to me he is attempting to control costs. Hang the piñata over the hangar doors and qualified pilots will line at a chance to get the prize and in the process he controls his cost by offering what many are suggesting is an acceptable salary.

He hires a pilot with a dream and poof he has a fixed monthly payroll cost, $2,000.00 per month regardless of how many hours the person swinging the stick at the piñata works. The cheap accommodations… a bonus for the new hire? Well perhaps on the surface but the reality is the employer is all ready paying the costs of the house (a.k.a. a fixed cost) so all he’s really doing is lowering his costs by paying you less, disguised as a rent payment.

If he really wants to have coverage for the ramp why not hire a few (3) and create a rotating schedule. A morning shift, an afternoon/evening shift and one guy on days off, be a bit more creative utilize a 6 on and 3 off schedule for 3 guys. Pay a decent hourly wage, and in YRL that equates to something in the $15.00 to $18.00 dollars per hour range for labour positions and the costs are controlled and predictable, you have coverage for 16 ramp hours per day, 7 days per without encuring any over-time costs. Yeah the EI premiums he pays goes up because he’s added two people more than he wants, but in the grand scheme of things its peanuts.

Can’t believe how many on here are supporting the idea of openly hiring pilots to perform the ground tasks at what will ultimately prove to be really low wages because of the hours and number of shifts compared to the salary. Justification for this practice? simply because he knows they have a dream and will ignore all the warning posted in the ad that is not a flying position…no promises, no guarantees blah blah blah

The ad should not be wishy washy, and there’s no denying it is….he puts a faint hope clause in there right after the not a flying position remarks. It’s crap, say it like it is, either you promote guys from the ramp to the line or you don’t .

Tell them like it is, long hours with not many days off because I‘m only hiring one guy. Yeah the moneys not great compared to the shifts and hours your going to called upon to work. I’m counting on you to pull a big load, do that for me and you will get your chance when a spot opens up in the right seat.

Sixty days probation, can’t pull the load or carry the weight I put upon your shoulders you will be gone. If you make the sixty days you have my word you will get your chance in the right seat when the next slot opens.

[Naveed]

I think people forget quickly what it is like starting out. I am 2000+ without a job, had something like this pop'd up when the industry is slow I would of jumped on it, Even if you started as an FO you'd be expected to pay your dues. This is a position without a bond, and not a bad wage, for what it is, if it doesn't lead to a flying position for you, maybe you were lazy, who knows, this isnt the 60's anymore, we dont graduate flight school with stewardess hanging off our arm, we take what we can get, and by the sounds of it, its a ad (finally) being upfront as to what to expect, so take that what it is, and good look to those to apply. Red Lake isn't that bad, at least you'll have cell phone reception, unlike Pickle Lake.