IFR in the mountains

[ditar]

Forgive me if I am ignorant, but I've spent my aviation career so far flying in the prairies, with only a couple of forays into the rocks. I understand many of the considerations that are involved when flying VFR in the mountains, but what about when flying IFR? As long as I follow the published procedures, what are the differences? Why do I need 500 hours of mountain time to be considered for certain jobs? I fully appreciate that if I deviate from procedures, the consequences can be much more dire than over the flatlands. In addition to the IFR procedures being generally more complex, what other factors and/or skills comprise mountain experience?

[200hr Wonder]

ditar, there are many little tips, tricks and considerations when flying into the rocks.

For example, the airport is rated at 1/2 and it really is a half mile with clag everywhere, how are you going to depart, which it is legal to do so and not hit anything? Climbing visual over the airport is not going to make it happen. What do you do when the engine cavs as well?

Take a look at Castelgar, the RNAV gets you down to 4500' ASL or 2876' AGL, tell me how can you safely get in at 2600' cloud deck? When is it safe to do it at that and when is it not?

There is no approach to Bella Coola BC, how can you get in? What are you weather limits, can you get in with a layer 6500', what about 6000'? If you do where are your danger points.

What about if you are unable to make the climb gradient on a single engine, what can you do to depart safely?

All these are things that you need to not only have considered but have contingency and be prepared for.

[pilotidentity]

I big part of flying IFR in BC is breaking out and canceling IFR. Sure you could follow the procedure all the time until lined up on final but that isn't efficient or fun. A little experience in the rocks can keep you out of trouble and give your passengers a smoother ride. The lighter and less powerful the aircraft you build this experience with is going to give you the best learning and respect for what can happen.

[Benwa]

Take a look at Castelgar, the RNAV gets you down to 4500' ASL or 2876' AGL, tell me how can you safely get in at 2600' cloud deck? When is it safe to do it at that and when is it not?

Please do tell !

[iflyforpie]

Take a look at Castelgar, the RNAV gets you down to 4500' ASL or 2876' AGL, tell me how can you safely get in at 2600' cloud deck? When is it safe to do it at that and when is it not?

Please do tell !

Approach Trail and .. run? (Just a guess, I don't have a CAP in front of me). Definitely need mountain skills for that!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Take a look at Castelgar, the RNAV gets you down to 4500' ASL or 2876' AGL, tell me how can you safely get in at 2600' cloud deck? When is it safe to do it at that and when is it not?

Please do tell !

Approach Trail and .. run? (Just a guess, I don't have a CAP in front of me). Definitely need mountain skills for that!

There is often a big hole in the overcast North of the bend in Arrow Lake. Circle down through that and have a look up the lake. As long as there is good vis you just follow the lake around and set up for the right base 15 at the Dam or continue right around the hill for the downwind 33

[200hr Wonder]

Benwa, BPF has it right, Arrow lakes, find the hole that is there quite often, down the hole, up past the dam and on in. Of course the *MOST* important part of that approach is having an out, IE being able to circle back up the same hole you came through if you drop in and don't like it. Also positioning your self to circle back around and out of the hole if you come round the corner and look up toward the damn and don't like what you see. Always giving your self an out if you change your mind on the way in.

Just like the Bella Coola question, shoot the approach at Anahime Lake and then head up the valley VFR, but there are 3 bends in the valley and you need to prepared to turn around at any of them if you look up the next leg of the valley and don't like what you see.

[SAR_YQQ]

For example, the airport is rated at 1/2 and it really is a half mile with clag everywhere

Being assessed (ie 1/2) has nothing to do with 1/2 mile visibility - unless I am misinterpreting your statement...

To the OP - mountain IFR is a whole new type of thought process - it isn't rocket science by any means, just requires more in the way of planning "what if".

Some things that are alien to prairie approaches - shuttle climbs on the beacon/fix/etc in order to reach 25nm MSA.

Climbing at Vy or Vx vice normal climb speed.

Descending with a sense of purpose, instead of just sedately doing it.

The previous posters have mentioned some other excellent examples of how experience flying in certain areas pays dividends. Most mountain IFR approaches require VFR + weather to get in (Cranbrook and Kelowna being the only real exception). If you have intimate local area knowledge you can get into those places.

[square]

Benwa, BPF has it right, Arrow lakes, find the hole that is there quite often, down the hole, up past the dam and on in. Of course the *MOST* important part of that approach is having an out, IE being able to circle back up the same hole you came through if you drop in and don't like it. Also positioning your self to circle back around and out of the hole if you come round the corner and look up toward the damn and don't like what you see. Always giving your self an out if you change your mind on the way in.

Just like the Bella Coola question, shoot the approach at Anahime Lake and then head up the valley VFR, but there are 3 bends in the valley and you need to prepared to turn around at any of them if you look up the next leg of the valley and don't like what you see.

Lol sounds you work at Carson!

And yeah mountain IFR is a lot different, the departure procedures are a big difference, and a lot of the places you go you gotta be able to cancel and transition to VFR if you want to make it. A lot of guys will have single-engine procedures planned out as well. You can do a pristine V1 cut and still be totally hooped once you enter IMC if you don't have any waypoints to program in for your climb procedure, shuttle climb planned. You'll find yourself a lot more vigilant on approach, knowing how near off your left and right are hills that top 10,000'.

[station60]

You're right, it's overrated. Let me know when you make it into CYXP in the dark with a gusty south westerly wind while following the only approach in there (NDB of course)... or better yet, since you're VFR experienced, go VFR Good luck.

[flying4dollars]

Climb gradients are a very big factor to consider when departing IMC out of airports in mountainous regions. If you lose an engine, you're in trouble. Also, flying in the rocks brings other dangers, such as dynamic and rapid weather changes, up/down drafts that can make you sweat even if you're VMC on a sky clear day, and illusions when flying in the shaded areas of valleys. Consider missed approaches, at night, in IMC, on a windy and snowy night, and you're really going to work for your paycheque. Lots of planning/thinking goes on when flying into mountainous regions. I'm from the coast, but started my career in the prairies. While I did gain good experience out there, I was humbled when I moved back to the coast to fly commercially. I'm still learning a lot, even going into the same places on an almost weekly basis after a years worth. This is why I love flying. The challenge never ends. But flying out here, you can truly appreciate companies requirements or preferences for mountain time.

[ditar]

You're right, it's overrated. Let me know when you make it into CYXP in the dark with a gusty south westerly wind while following the only approach in there (NDB of course)... or better yet, since you're VFR experienced, go VFR Good luck.

My intention was not to sound as though I think it's overrated. Quite the contrary, I appreciate the fact that there are many factors to consider, and I want to get a better idea of what they are. Like flying4dollars, I also would like to move back to B.C. some day to fly there, thus my desire to learn more about it. I appreciate the input so far.

[station60]

My intention was not to sound as though I think it's overrated. Quite the contrary, I appreciate the fact that there are many factors to consider, and I want to get a better idea of what they are. Like flying4dollars, I also would like to move back to B.C. some day to fly there, thus my desire to learn more about it. I appreciate the input so far.

I know, I was being an ass

[Anti-Ice]

VFR mountain procedures are hardcore...especially if you are doing off-strip work.

IFR mountain flying is no different than IFR 'prairie' flying.

As llong as you stick to the numbers and the published information you have no worries. Transprot Canada is ultra conservative.

That being said, if you do follow TC min's, you will not get in (ie' successful approach) very much, but you will be 100% safe. If you want to get in, you better read the above posts, and read some mountain flying books.