Instructor vs Student?

[bluenote]

Just wondering as I am still looking for that first instructing gig, Instructors have you had frustrations or collided heads with your student because they thought they knew everything and of course vice versa where you the student had frustrations and bumped heads with your instructor?

I am always curious on how I hope to deal with students when of course I ever get that first job instructing.

I am sure this subject has been talked many moons ago, just looking for updated versions.

thanks

[AJV]

Generally students or "clients" think you are pretty awesome, and they listen to you because they want to get their PPL/CPL and you are the key to getting it. On occasion you will run into someone who is more challenging, in that case you need to follow the flight instructor guide and if that fails then consult another instructor or your CFI, finally if you still don't see eye to eye then you need to pass them to another instructor who has a different personality than yours.

Hope this helps,
AJV

PS. Worry about getting your first few students and teaching them to the best of your ability before worrying about getting a difficult client.

[Heliian]

Attitude determines your altitude.

Cheesy, but dealing with peoples personalities is going to be a majour part of your work and don't forget that the customer is always right.

One of my favorite techniques is the compliment sandwich: Start with something positive ex."good job with that checklist." then tell them where they're lacking ex. "you could improve on those crosswinds, we got a little sideways there." and then finish off with another positive ex."good work with those radios" or whatever the student did well that day. Regardless, keep your ratio of positive to instructional comments up. It's very discouraging if all the student hears are negatives and corrections and they'll get frustrated and then pissy.

[Shiny Side Up]

Cheesy, but dealing with peoples personalities is going to be a majour part of your work and don't forget that the customer is always right.

Actually no, the customer isn't always right. Flight training isn't Wal-Mart. I would say that at least once a week or more a customer requests that I do:

1) Something illegal.
2) Something unsafe.
3) Something both of the above.

Sometimes they get pissy about it, and to be honest, these customers I can do without. I politely explain why I can't satsify their request once. They don't get another warning. Remember that the general public - who is often your customer - is largely ignorant of any regulations, safety requrements or performance limitations you will be operating under.

That's not to say that you can't do your best to make the customer happy, but don't put up with any shit. Chances are if you are uncertain whether its safe for you to do something they ask the answer is it isn't.

One of my favorite techniques is the compliment sandwich:

You stole that from Stewie's management handbook.

None the less it in essence works. The Good, the Bad, Where/what to improve. Give praise where praise is due, but never sugar-coat it. If it was all bad, then don't pretend they did well. Keep the critique objective and honest.

[flyingdiaper]

You, as instructor should have good overall knowledge of Aviation,
but it's impossible to know everything. If student shows-off something you don't know,
(for most of the time, it's kind of random non essential stuff)
you can admit that you didn't know, and praise them how they know such stuff.
If there's conflict between you and your student, find the answer together and
solve the problem right there and then. But don't ever try to defeat your student.
If you do, they'll keep on challenging you till they get their victory.
Always be positive, it's about good relationship that solves most of the problem.
Good luck!

[mcrit]

If you have a student that is dead set on ignoring your advice (I only ever had one like that) sometimes the best thing you can do for them is to politely let them stick their head in the meat grinder. By 'sometimes' I mean a situation where there will be no bent metal or blood spilled. One incident of that will most likely make them see the wisdom of your ways.
If you have a keener student that likes to dig up obscure knowledge and pass it on to you, encourage it. Like others have said, there is far, far to much aviation knowledge to ever fit in just one person's noggin. Unless that person is Bob Hoover.
If you have a student that just enjoys being a dickhead, find another instructor for them. There is almost always a noob class 4 that is desperate enough for hours that they will put up with it.

[LousyFisherman]

What about frustrations with instructors attitudes? How do you deal with a student that knows more than you? If you get an older student it is quite likely they can help you as a Class 4 instructor.

For example I knew more about engines, physics, weather and navigation than all of the Class 3 and 4 instructors I encountered during my PPL. Air law and physically flying the plane were lacking

Many times I would ask a question to be given an answer that was quite obviously incorrect. The attitudes of 3 instructors upon being informed of this were such that I would not fly with them. The 4th, took it as an opportunity to learn. Needless to say he got a lot of hours from me.

The following became my "test" question.
Why does maneuvering speed drop when the weight of the plane drops?
Don't tell me about the relationship to stall speed. I already know that.
Tell me WHY, in terms I can understand, even if it is not 100% correct.

Hint: The explanation should probably include the word acceleration.
Provide a real life example? A good one involves a tablecloth and glasses

And if you use a bucket on a rope analogy, I will never fly with you in either seat.

JM2CW
LF

[Big Pistons Forever]

Students tend to want to gravitate towards their comfort zone. So If the student is a Physics major than they probably will want to get deep into aerodynamic theory. This unfortunately is often pursued at the expense of other more practical knowledge deficits. At the PPL level there is a lot to learn so I gloss over most of the theory and emphasize the practical. So if a student wants to delve into the underlying theory governing the factors affecting manoevering speed I would first ask what are the POH provided speeds for the gross weight condition, mid cruise weight and light weight condition. If the student can not immediately answer the question (almost always the case) then that is tonights homework. At this point I will provide the relavent numbers and use them to demonstrate the fact that manoevering speed decreases with decreasing weight and repeat the brief FTM explanation of why. If they want to get into a theoretical discussion I tell them that they do not need a deeper level of knowledge than I have just provided them and they should use their study time to work on the practical study areas I have provided them. If they insist on pursuing this line of discussion I give them my aerodynamics reference books and then as a homework assignment tell them to provide me with the answer for our next lesson as as well as an additional assignment consisting of theory with a practical example like "what is happening if during the runup, as is the standard practice while leaning with the carb heat on, the RPM does not rise as the mixture is leaned from the full rich position, and what do you do".

At the CPL level, and again to use the example of manoevering speed, I would expand the discussion to include the concepts of Va and Vb and how/when they would be used during a flight, actions to be taken in rough air, and PDM considerations.
It is only for students working toward their instructor rating, where I would go fully into the aerodynamic theory.

I encourage all my students to expand their understanding of all elements of flight theory but knowledge aquisition in flight training has to be in the right order. Must Know - Should Know - Nice to Know.

The theory underlying the changes in Manoevering speed with weight is firmly in the Nice to Know catagory

[Tim]

BPF I agree completely. I've had students before who are so busy trying to impress with what they know about the periphery topics around flying, they forget to learn about the things they don't know about flying itself (one in particular REALLLLY sticks out). Sometimes you just need to know THAT something happens, not WHY it happens. Not knowing everything about Va doesn't mean you can't follow the limitations and be safe. I'm not advocating ignorance, but you can't learn EVERYTHING.

[hew44]

Generally students look up to you. I remember being nervous starting out instructing, trying to think of questions students may ask me. You'll find that the questions they ask you 90 percent of the time are very easy ones. You almost have to think that you know 100 times what they know, this will give you the confidence you need to answer a question (that being said if you don't know, never bluff, just say ya don't know).

The bad students aren't really the ones with poor knowledge or flying skill, its the pushy ones. Especially when your young, i was 20 when i was a class 4 and a lot of them tried to push me around then. For the pushy ones the best bet is intensity, scare the crap out of them in a safe way. Works like a charm.

[trey kule]

Lousy fisherman

When I was an ab initio instructor, many many many moons ago, I seldom answered any ppl students question. My reply was to look it up and then ask them for the answer at the next ground briefing. Why.. First of all, I just might be wrong and that would put a wrong fact or explanation in your head...harder to learn when you have to correct wrong facts first. And secondly because many private students , upon finishing training, may go on to fly hundreds of hours and for many many years without any further instruction...they need to learn how to find info. It is just to easy to ask an instructor.

Have to tell you though, that it seems to me that it really tells me something about a student who would pose "test questions" to their instructor. If you know the answer , and you are sure you are correct, why ask it? I can understand why many instructors might not know the answer. It simply is not required to fly safely as long as you understand that a lower weight means a lower man speed. There is a lot to learn as a ppl. K.I.S.S. If someone wants to learn more than that , that is great, but to use it as a test...you just might be giving people the wrong impression of your attitude.

And BTW, I did know the answer.

[LousyFisherman]

BPF and Trey, I would fly with you any time.

TK, the guy I ended up training with had much the same attitude as you. He would answer, but had no issues when I questioned him or pointed out he had to be wrong. We had many in detail discussions that went far beyond the "requirements". He learned a lot, I learned even more.

BPF, I agree maneuvering speed vs weight is in the "nice to know" category for a PPL. I think it is in the "must know" category for an Instructor. And an Instructor should know how to explain it. Or at least admit that they have "forgotten"

The point is not the instructors knowledge; it is his or her attitude.

If a youngster (forgive the term but my daughter is/was older than all the instructors I had) believes that a student should just accept their "wisdom" and should not question it then I do not want to fly with them. THEY ARE DANGEROUS!

The test question is not to test their knowledge, it is to test their attitude.

"Students look up to you." Hate to break it to you but the old farts probably don't.

The first 4 people to complete their PPL in my "starting class" were over 40. 3 of us used the same instructor, mainly because we had problems with "attitude" and were not going to tolerate it. Mind you, the 3 of us each ran a business, and over beer we figured the "problem" instructors were intimidated by us and used their attitude to hide their insecurity.

LF

[trey kule]

an interesting take..Just to point out that I did not start my career instructing. I became an instructor during an extended furlough period. I was pretty close to 40when I started instructing...

I never felt intimidated by older students, but I did find that some students who had successful careers or businesses seemed to feel that that entitled them to be experts in everything, and the odd one presented some challanges. And that was all about student attitude. In general though, those that start flying for pure recreational purposes are truly great to teach as long as they understand it is an education and not a substitute for a golf game. Learning to fly is the start of a time of enjoyment and fulfillment and not the start of the journey to the big iron Besides, they usually are not weighed down by the big watches. The absolute best students to teach to fly are those that when asked why they want to learn just say they really dont know...they just know they want to fly.

[LousyFisherman]

The absolute best students to teach to fly are those that when asked why they want to learn just say they really dont know...they just know they want to fly.

Amen, even as a teen-ager flying interested me. When, at age 48, I finally got to take the yoke/stick for the first time, I was hooked. Went home and booked lessons, 1 a day for the next 30 days.

I still couldn't tell you why I love to fly, I just know I do.

LF

[sarfarosh]

TK