Upgrading from Class 4 to Class 1 at once? (Instructor)

[van_pilot]

Just quick questions.

If I have all the requirements for class 1 instructor,
(10 recommedations, 750 instruction time, 80% for the written etc.)
Am I able to skip class 3,2 and do class 1 flight test right away?

Or Class 3 to Class 1? Is that possible? Anybody? Just curious.

[hairdo]

No. Have a read through 421.70 to 421.72 (something you should be familiar with if you are thinking of doing an upgrade, especially to a 2 or 1), in particular point one of each CAR.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_70
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_71
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_72

[Hedley]

Not according to the CARs.

421.70(1) says to get a class 3, you must hold a class 4.

421.71(1) says to get a class 2, you must hold a class 3.

421.72(1) says to get a class 1, you must hold a class 2.

You don't have a class 2. Therefore 421.72(1) applies and you cannot get a class 1.

Anyone else have a different interpretation?

[Walker]

Ya hate to say it, but if you need to ask such a question you are not ready to hold a 2 let alone a 1

[KK7]

What Hedley and hairdo said is exactly it.

Sometime ago when I was a Class 3 and met the requirements to be a Class 1, and did the flight test for the Class 2 then the Class 1 within days... but both had to be done. However since it was with the same examiner, and the flight portion of each flight test is virtually the same, the second flight test involved a very lax flight portion (one circuit, normal take off and landing, while he completed paperwork), since only a few days before he took me through my paces in the air and was satisfied. The ground portion of the flight test, however, was very different between each.

If you have a good examiner, it's definitely worth doing the flight tests if they treat it as a lesson. To get a Class 2, you require no training towards how to supervise instructors, and to get a Class 1, you get no training on how to conduct flight instructor training. You're kind of left on your own to figure it out. The examiner I had turned it into a full lesson, and although the ground portion lasted a few hours, he was good at not making me feel stressed, and I walked out of there a much smarter man than I was going in.

[HavaJava]

Does it not seem like the requirements to become a class 1 flight instructor (or even a class 4 for that matter) are rediculously low. I think the best thing we could do for this industry is raise the requirements for flight instructors. Especially for class 1's and 2's and any instructor who is teaching commercial/multi/IFR students.

Here's a novel thought...any flight instructor that teaches comm/multi/IFR students must have comm/multi/IFR experience outside of the flight instruction world.

Yes, I know that in order to get experienced flight instructors, flight schools and therefore students would have to pay more money to retain these people...well, there's another novel idea!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash flight instructors that are doing their best to scrape by, but having said that, the vast majority of comm/multi/IFR knowledge I've acquired has come from Line-Indoc Captains who are the true Instructors of this industry.

[KK7]

Here's a novel thought...any flight instructor that teaches comm/multi/IFR students must have comm/multi/IFR experience outside of the flight instruction world.

This is a great idea in theory. There are two schools of thought with regards to flight training, I'll call the N. American method, and the European method.

We all the know the N. American method: get a PPL, Instrument Rating, Multi Rating, CPL, then get an instructor rating then teach all of the above. We get young, less experienced pilots teaching new pilots to follow in the same footsteps - but it's cheap, and we produce very few career instructors.

In Europe, you get hired on as a Cadet directly into an airline that teaches you to fly the Airbus or whatever from semi-retired airline guys with lots of experience who are making good money, or if you go it alone you you need to be a millionaire to pay for very high quality flight instruction from guys with 30+ years of experience.

Both systems work, but is one better than the other? They both have their plusses and minuses. But many folks from Europe head to N. America to do their training because it is significantly cheaper than anything they can get in the EU.

Now some might say "Well we don't need to have it so cheap for kids to get their licences and start looking for jobs that don't exist in this industry." Maybe so, but if we had the European system it's quite possible that most of us in this forum wouldn't have enjoyed the career in aviation we've had to date.

[Hedley]

if you need to ask such a question ...

Most pilots in Canada don't have a clue what's legal and what's not. And, they don't know how to find out for sure. If they don't know, generally they just ask another pilot, who gives them their opinion. This is not a very good way to find the actual answer.

As a senior flight instructor, you're going to be one of the people that gets asked questions about the CARs, and you should be able to answer them. You certainly should be able to answer your own questions!

IMHO a class 2 instructor should be familiar with CAR 602, 605, 401/421, 405/425, 406/426 and flight test guides for starters. You should also have a clue as to when 702 and 703 apply!

A class 2 should also have a very good grasp of the theory of flight, and engines.

A class 2 should also be a pretty good stick in a single-engine trainer, and be able to smoothly and precisely demonstrate and explain any of the tasks in the rec/ppl/cpl flight test guides.

A class one instructor is a horse of an entirely different colour. That's all about teaching new class 4 instructors. The skills of a class 2 instructor must be a given, for a class 1 instructor. I strongly recommend any class 2 instructor get some ground instruction from a class 1, before they attempt a class 1 instructor ride.

Here's a free tip for you: I have absolutely no bookmarks into the TC website. Ok, I lie, maybe one or two. I never navigate the TC website, but I spend a lot of time reading it.

When I want to find something on the TC website - say, about parachutes - I go to Google and do a site-specific search. You do this in either of 2 ways:

1) enter this into the Google bar: parachute site:www.tc.gc.ca
2) if you can't remember the "site" thing above, used the advanced search option and do a site-specific search.

Here's the result. Click on it!

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sourc ... =&gs_rfai=

Next week: how to use quotes effectively in Google.

[KK7]

A class one instructor is a horse of an entirely different colour. That's all about teaching new class 4 instructors. The skills of a class 2 instructor must be a given, for a class 1 instructor. I strongly recommend any class 2 instructor get some ground instruction from a class 1, before they attempt a class 1 instructor ride.

+1

The Class 1 flight test was the longest flight test/exam I have ever had in my career from the very beginning to being a Captain in a 705 operation. It's not hard, but you will get slaughtered in it if you don't know your $hit. It was all the ground portion, because at this point it's all but certain you have a good handle on the aircraft if you've made it this far.

In my own test, the actual teaching a lesson bit of the ground portion was only done as a formality, and was very short. The rest of the time was spent discussing common problems students have, and how instructors deal with it, and how one can equip a new instructor with the tools to deal with this. PTRs were pulled out of all my own students, and those of the instructors I was supervised, and we discussed every line and comment left in there, discussed the good and the bad. After all that, it was a rainy day so many instructors were hanging about, so we all got together and I led a discussion about some common issues new instructors had with students, while the examiner both observed and participated in.

Not a single question was asked though. The three hour ordeal was entirely a discussion. At the end of the exam the TC inspector asked me if he had asked me a question, I said no. He said that's right, but he was paying very close attention to the direction I took the discussion in, and I could be sure that if I took it in the wrong direction at any point, he would have ended the flight test. In the end, the whole thing was a lesson, and I got a lot out of it, but at the same time he was monitoring what I already knew and observing very closely.

Sounds tough, but wasn't stressful at all... When you're at this point in your instructing career if this is scary, then you're maybe not ready for the step up. A lot of responsibility rests on your shoulders as a Class 1.

[KK7]

If I have all the requirements for class 1 instructor,
(10 recommedations, 750 instruction time, 80% for the written etc.)
Am I able to skip class 3,2 and do class 1 flight test right away?

Something just occurred to me about this...

The likelihood of this scenario occurring is extremely slim. There is no flight test requirement to upgrade from a Class 4 to a Class 3 - it's simply a paperwork exercise once you meet the requirements. So how would one amass 10 recommends, 750 hours of instructing time (of which 500 is ab initio) and not be a Class 3 assuming they must have sent three students solo at this point?

[FlaplessDork]

For me the Class 2 was the hardest flight test I have completed to date. They put me through the ringer.

Class 1 ride was the easiest flight test that I have completed. It was almost more of an instructional flight consisting of advice to train Class 4's. It was quick and to the point. It may have helped that I did my Class 2 only months before with the same TC Inspector, but who can say.

[Big Pistons Forever]

For me the Class 2 was the hardest flight test I have completed to date. They put me through the ringer.

Class 1 ride was the easiest flight test that I have completed. It was almost more of an instructional flight consisting of advice to train Class 4's. It was quick and to the point. It may have helped that I did my Class 2 only months before with the same TC Inspector, but who can say.

Same for me. They put the boots to me for the Class 2, but the class 1 ride was no big deal and as an earlier poster said was mostly a discussion. The flying part was barely 0.5. I got the distinct impression that the local feds had got together before hand and had allready decided whether they wanted me as a Class 1. Based on how I got treated I guess the answer was yes....

The fundamental issue IMO, is do you have the knowledge and experience to answer any question about airplanes, flying or teaching? The only practical way to get that know how is to work your way up the instructing ladder, including being the go to guy/gal for "problem " students, supervising Class 4's and performing the duties of Assistant CFI /CFI. In any case I think you would have to be a truely exceptional individual to achieve the Class 1 in the TC minimums and in my case, I had substantially more instructing time as well as significant other flying experience when I upgraded to the Class 1.

[Hedley]

you would have to be a truely exceptional individual to achieve the Class 1 in the TC minimums

+1

I just dug through my old logbooks and when I upgraded to a class 1 instructor, years and years ago, I had my ATPL, around 2,500 TT and 1,500 dual given. But, I may be a slow learner.

A lot of responsibility rests on your shoulders as a Class 1

Indeed. A class 1 instructor creates new flight instructors, who teach the next generation of pilots to fly.

[KK7]

But, I may be a slow learner.

Probably...

But, unless you're working at a flight college, it takes quite a bit of time to get to those 10 recommends. Most flight schools don't have enough full time students to go around, so your student roster likely involves people who come out once a week, recreational flyers who come and go, some students that will start, get halfway then get have something better to do with their time, lots of checkouts, night ratings, filling in for other instructors and so on. I think I had 1000 hours of instructing before I got 10 recommends.

[FlaplessDork]

In any case I think you would have to be a truely exceptional individual to achieve the Class 1 in the TC minimums and in my case, I had substantially more instructing time as well as significant other flying experience when I upgraded to the Class 1.

I have to look back at my logbook, but I think I had the minimum time. I had about 1200 hours when I did my 2 and I did the 1 not long after. Could have been that Class 1's were hard to come by at the time, so they passed the rejects.