Train in U.S.A. then licence in Canada?

[yousuckmonday]

Hope someone can help. I have finally saved enough pennies to take my PPL. Ideally, I would like to complete this in a month, shorter if possible. A couple of considerations came to mind.

a) my understanding from talking with other pilots is that the training is VFR and most schools cancel their lessons fairly regularly this time of year (winter) due to adverse conditions
b) the Canadian dollar is close to being on par with the US dollar

I started to look at flight schools at warm places in the States (Florida, Arizona, etc.). There appears to be a number of places that offer an immersive, "accelertated training" course which sets out an intensive 2 week syllabus with the idea that you would have 40 hours flying, ground school and other components needed for the FAA licence by the end of the two weeks.

My questions is, would it be possible to fly, learn, train in the US for two weeks and then do the flight tests as set out by Transport Canada upon return to the wild North?

[Big Pistons Forever]

At the Private Pilot Level (PPL) except for some special circumstances which will not apply to you, the PPL icense can only be transfered, not a portion of the US PPL training towards the license. You could get a US PPL and then transfer it over to a Canadian PPL though. Be advised though a realistic minimum for zero to US PPL at one of the big US schools in a hot and sunny place, is 4 weeks and this will be no holiday, it will be seven day a week bag drive.

Canadian Air Regulation 421.26 (8) applies to transfering a US PPL to a Canadian one. No additional training or flight test is required.

Licence Issued On the Basis of Foreign Licence

(a) An applicant who is the holder of a Private or higher pilot licence -aeroplane issued by a Contracting State shall be considered:

(i) to have met the ground school instruction requirement; and

(ii) to have met the written examination requirement and the flight test requirement, provided that the foreign licence was not issued on the basis of a licence from another State, and that the applicant:

(A) has met the flight time requirements specified in subsection (4);

(B) has obtained a minimum of 90% in the written examination Student Pilot Permit or Private Pilot Licence for Foreign and Military Applicants, Aviation Regulations (PSTAR); and

(C) has completed, as pilot in command or co-pilot in aeroplanes, a minimum of 5 take-offs and 5 landings within the 6 months preceding the date of application for the Canadian licence.

[5x5]

My questions is, would it be possible to fly, learn, train in the US for two weeks and then do the flight tests as set out by Transport Canada upon return to the wild North?

Quite simply "No". If it was possible to properly train for a PPL in two weeks, then everyone would do it. And it's not just weather that makes it impossible. There is simply too much to learn. As a reference, the Air Cadet programs that are run each summer at numerous schools across the country take almost 2 months. And this is with an intensive schedule of groundschool and flying that has the cadets fully engaged, all day long through the summer.

Most students find that even flying twice a day is quite tiring after a few days in a row. And those days don't include ground school as well. There is a lot of energy and time required to review and prepare properly for your lessons.

Although the course you describe sounds attractive - it just isn't realistic. If you were to start, you would most likely find yourself stuck in Florida after two weeks, no where near finished and then what would you do?

And personally, I don't think flight training is the kind of pursuit you want to take chances on. Cutting corners or rushing to get through might get you the licence, but how well trained and safe would you actually be?

[jump154]

Think of the journey, not the destination. SO what if you get a few lessons cancelled due to weather - gives you good practice at interpreting weather and making the "no-go" decision. Biggest no-go decision I had to make was for my PPL Ride - Examiner was ready to fly, conditions were borderline, i'm gald I said no!
My PPL took just short of 2 years, weekends and evenings - work schedule took it's toll with a few unplanned breaks - but at the end of it I have a PPL, and now have just over 100 hours - and for a recreational PPL that's all that matters (as i'm not looking to do a CPL in minimum time, make the hours for ATPL etc...)
I agree that I woudl have learned quicker and cheaper if I could have flown more regularly, less review lessons - but flying pre-PPL is just as much fun as post PPL, and i'm doing it for fun!
End of the day, I scored well on the flight test, and I've experiences over 2 years worth of weather. Still got piles of learning to go, but I have no regrets.
You sounds like you are doing this recreationally - maybe similar to me (early 40's always wanted to fly) - enjoy the ride, the talking on the ground, enjoy the journey.
Hardest thing i'm finding at the moment? Deciding what to do/where to go outside the structure of PPL training!

[Hedley]

what to do/where to go outside the structure of PPL training!

Easy! Start working your way down this laundry list:

Night rating
Retractable gear, constant speed prop, cowl flaps
Fuel injection / carburetor
Tailwheel training
Float rating
Glider licence
Turbocharged / Supercharged / Geared
Radial Engine
Biplane
Aerobatics
Ski-plane
Multi-engine endorsement
Instrument rating
Turboprop
Turbofan (jet)
Rotary wing
Engine mechanics (4-stroke, 2-stroke, turbine)
Airframe (tube, fabric, wood, metal, composite, paint)
Electrical & Avionics

That's the great thing about aviation. No matter how much you've done over the decades, you still haven't done it all. There is no person that has expertly flown (and can do major repairs on) all aeroplanes, helicopters, gliders, gyrocopters and airships.

[jump154]

what to do/where to go outside the structure of PPL training!

Easy:

Night rating
Retractable gear, constant speed prop, cowl flaps
Fuel injection / carburetor
Tailwheel training
Float rating
Glider licence
Aerobatics
Ski-plane
Multi-engine endorsement
Instrument rating
Rotary wing
Engine mechanics (4-stroke, 2-stroke, turbine)
Airframe (tube, fabric, wood, metal, composite, paint)
Electrical & Avionics

That's the great thing about aviation. No matter how much you've done over the decades, you still haven't done it all.

Can you send that list to my wife, with a recommendation!

I was meaning where to fly - suddenly the whole province openeed up and i'm spoiled for choice! I've now got a list of missions, ticking them off one by one as the bank account allows.

I agree about aviation - one of the lures was getting back into learning new things, and i've only just started.

[Shiny Side Up]

Hope someone can help. I have finally saved enough pennies to take my PPL. Ideally, I would like to complete this in a month, shorter if possible. A couple of considerations came to mind.

Why the small time frame? Hate to say it, but if you just have enough pennies, budgeting to travel across the continent, lodge somewhere and flight train hardly seems like an economical means of doing it.

[yousuckmonday]

Thanks to all for the replies. Very informative.

Jump154 - you have me pegged exactly. I'm just creeping up on 40 and have wanted to fly since knee high to a grasshopper. I'm not going to be flying 747s, but I would like to fly into the states from time to time. Otherwise I would consider the Rec Pilot Permit as an economical route to go.

Shiny Side Up - Why the short time frame? Well... I guess there really isn't one. Except that in a field where there seems to be more opinions than pilots (seriously, I have asked questions on things and had people preface their answer with "I'm of two opinions about that...") there is one opinion that rings through consistently. When learning study hard and fly often. What better avenue than to immerse one's self in the environment and focus on nothing else for a few weeks. When I look at myself I suppose that you could say I am a better sprinter than marathon . when it comes to learning things.
I understand that it pays off in the long run with regard to economics, too. While there is a happy medium, I have heard of people spending tens of thousands and taking years and years to licence. When if they studied hard and flew often they could have halved their expenses and time. With regard to economics, when the Canadian dollar is strong it would pay off to look into the States, wouldn't it? Particularly if there is a school that can offer an accelerated program and all other expenses that are right on par with a Canadian school that offers the same over the course of nine months. (refer to sprinter/marathon . metaphor)

[yousuckmonday]

Solely for the furtherance of the discussion, 5 x 5 had written "Cutting corners or rushing to get through might get you the licence, but how well trained and safe would you actually be?". I guess my take on this is that you would be as well trained and safe as anyone else who had just taken flight training and passed their flight test. Not to dwell on it too long 'cause it is probably a topic for a different thread, but would you rather fly number two with the guy who was an ace and caught on to the concepts as they were presented and was able to get through the training in the required amount of time or with the guy who struggled with rudimentary concepts and decision making for nine months before he was cleared to take his Flight test.
I'd like to think that safety starts well before getting to the airport. That is to say, if you are predisposed to being reckless and having a devil may care attitude then that is going to be reflected in your flight safety. Conversely, if you are likely to take a conservative approach, only there for the VFR recreational flying in well maintained aircraft then you would have a different level of safety when flying.

Like I say, probably a topic for a different thread.

[Shiny Side Up]

It is true that the more time you can dedicate to the task the quicker and cheaper it will be - in general. All I would say is don't restrict yourself on that time, or do something that may restrict it. Moving somewhere else might do so and put you in the pinch, just as bad weather here might do so. Deadlines and flight training don't go well together.

[5x5]

My comments were not that you can't learn well with a devoted, intensive program. In fact, there's a lot of value to going at it hard. Just have a more reasonable time frame in mind. The point was intended to be that any company offering a two-week "from nothing to PPL" course cannot possibly deliver unless they cut a huge amount of corners. And I would like to know who does their flight tests for them.

I have heard of people spending tens of thousands and taking years and years to licence. When if they studied hard and flew often they could have halved their expenses and time.

I highlighted the two big ifs in the quote as they are both based on the student's effort. It is unlikely that these people you have heard of took that long and spent that much because of the school. Check around and pick a school that will give you the time that you want. Typically, schools don't have a set time-frame and progress is dependant on the students willingness and ability to devote time. If you're ready to go full speed I'm sure you can find a school that will work with you and get you done in much less than 9 months.

[Hedley]

It is possible to get a PPL in 8 weeks. However, there are some catches:

1) you have a nice big pile of cash saved up in the bank

2) you have your medical done already, and you have paper in hand

3) you're full time. Flight training is your job. No other jobs, worries or concerns.

4) you're young. It's probably twice as hard to learn something new when you are 32 as opposed to when you were 16.

5) you have great aptitude for aviation. This is really important. Slow learners cannot learn fast.

6) wx is perfect. No rain, no snow. Unlimited VMC all day every day. Light winds only.

7) perfect maintenance, or unlimited number of airplanes available.

8) you have an organized instructor (or two) that's done this before, who will show up reliably, and won't take off for the right seat of a Navajo halfway through your training.

If you can align all of the above planets, yes, you can get your PPL from absolute zero aviation knowledge, in 8 weeks. You will initially spend half of the day on groundschool and half of the day flying. You should write your PPL exam about 1/2 way through the 8 weeks, with a resulting increased emphasis your flight training (navigation, cross-country, hood time) in the second 1/2. You fly the flight test in the last of the 8 weeks.

The above is certainly theoretically possible - the air cadets in Canada do something like the above, every summer - but for most people, it is difficult to muster all of the above conditions.

Do you have all of 1 through 8 of the above?

Now, once you get your "fast-track" PPL, you might be legal to not fly for another 4.999 years, but that wouldn't be safe or smart. You must keep flying regularly to retain your very quickly-learned skills, or they will quickly fade away.

The other thing you need as a pilot is a complete season. You might be the ace of the base during the summer, but you have a lot to learn about winter ops. How to safely clean ice and snow from an aircraft without damaging it? How to preheat? How to taxi and takeoff and land on snow and ice? With howling crosswinds? Whiteout?

I know that everyone is into instant gratification but the really neat thing about aviation is that you can't learn it all in one day. I realize this is an annoyance for many people - eg future Cirrus owners - but for the rest of us, it makes for a very pleasant and interesting lifetime of learning.

[Posthumane]

I've always wondered why people training for their PPL with the intent of doing it for the pleasure want to get it done as fast as possible. Granted there is the expense thing - the quicker you get it done the less you pay. However, unless you have an airplane lined up that you can cheaply fly right after your training then the expense will continue after you get your PPL as well (and if you DO have an airplane lined up, might as well just get it and use that for your training).

If you are going to be flying once a week after you get your PPL, you may as well do your training in the same way. That way you can see how much you retain between lessons and how much refreshing you need. It doesn't do much good to go through a fast track program for several weeks and then have no money left at the end and not fly for several weeks/months.

IMO - you are flying during your lessons so you might as well enjoy it rather than looking at it as a means to a goal, especially when that goal is being able to do more flying.

[FlaplessDork]

Hope someone can help. I have finally saved enough pennies to take my PPL. Ideally, I would like to complete this in a month, shorter if possible. A couple of considerations came to mind.

a) my understanding from talking with other pilots is that the training is VFR and most schools cancel their lessons fairly regularly this time of year (winter) due to adverse conditions
b) the Canadian dollar is close to being on par with the US dollar

I started to look at flight schools at warm places in the States (Florida, Arizona, etc.). There appears to be a number of places that offer an immersive, "accelertated training" course which sets out an intensive 2 week syllabus with the idea that you would have 40 hours flying, ground school and other components needed for the FAA licence by the end of the two weeks.

My questions is, would it be possible to fly, learn, train in the US for two weeks and then do the flight tests as set out by Transport Canada upon return to the wild North?

I agree with everyone regarding the next to impossibility of completing everything in 2 weeks, but to answer the other half of your question, yes it is possible to train in the U.S. then do your flight test in Canada. All you require is certification from a Canadian flight instructor that you meet training standards all flight exercises and ground school knowledge required for the Canadian License. You will need to meet the license requirements for the Canadian License, which your time in the U.S. will count towards. The standards for applying foreign credits towards a Canadian License without holding a foreign license are listed in CAR 421.26(9)(c).

[Big Pistons Forever]

This is the CAR's referenced in the previous post

(c) An applicant who does not hold a Private or higher pilot licence - Aeroplane issued by a contracting state may be credited foreign dual and solo aeroplane flight training time and aeroplane ground school time towards the knowledge and experience requirements for the issue of a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, if the applicant provides certification from the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane that all ground and flight training exercises have been satisfactorily reviewed.
(amended 2003/03/01

This is no paper exercise. If somebody showed up with say 30 hrs of dual from an American school I would need to see every manoever as well as a lenghly ground briefing going over all the PPL theory, and introducing the unique to Canada specifics. I would imagine we are talking 3 to 5 hrs airtime and the same again for the ground briefing.....or more if things don't go well. This is going to be a mostly sunk costs, and will negate some of the advantages of training in the US. I still think if you are going to go to the US for training the best way is to stay and complete the US PPL.

[FlaplessDork]

This is no paper exercise. If somebody showed up with say 30 hrs of dual from an American school I would need to see every manoever as well as a lenghly ground briefing going over all the PPL theory, and introducing the unique to Canada specifics. I would imagine we are talking 3 to 5 hrs airtime and the same again for the ground briefing.....or more if things don't go well. This is going to be a mostly sunk costs, and will negate some of the advantages of training in the US. I still think if you are going to go to the US for training the best way is to stay and complete the US PPL.

+1 I agree fully.

[Hedley]

A tricky detail is that PIC is defined differently in the USA as opposed to Canada.

[yousuckmonday]

5 x 5 - I apologize, I had misinterpreted what you had said initially and thought it was one of those flat out "no way in the world that is going to happen" type of responses. Thank you for clarifying.

Hedley - I appreciate the insight with regard to getting planets aligned, so to speak. That is precisely what I am trying to do by looking at places in the States. I was figuring that a willing spirit and an open mind ready to learn is only going to go so far if there is no plane to fly and/or zero visibility. Sure, there are no weather guarantees in Florida, Arizona, or Nevada, but on the balance of probabilities I would wager that it is at least warmer (and perhaps clearer) there than December in Canada (if that counts for anything)

Posthumane - Economics is a real driver for me. I have saved some money and have an opportunity to get a month off work to pursue this. If I can find the right plane, I would love to buy (or have the bank buy me) a plane and use it to train. Makes more sense to me than renting, short and long term.

Big Pistons/Flapless - Thanks for the CAR reference and your take on things.

As much information as I can get is truely appreciated. Thanks to all

[Shiny Side Up]

Sure, there are no weather guarantees in Florida, Arizona, or Nevada, but on the balance of probabilities I would wager that it is at least warmer (and perhaps clearer) there than December in Canada (if that counts for anything)

Keep in mind that they still celebrate Christmas down there so you might still lose some time due to the holidays. If you're as hell bent as it seems you might want to consider this, unless of course you can find someone who doesn't care about the holidays to train.

[SunWuKong]

4) you're young. It's probably twice as hard to learn something new when you are 32 as opposed to when you were 16.

I have serious doubt about that.
In fact I wouldn't even be surprised that few of use learnt faster their PPL at 32 compared to a teenager. Anyway twice harder at 32 than 16? I don't beleive that, really.

Now about the necessity to align a million planet to have a chance to finish the PPL in 8 weeks, well I didn't know I was that lucky with the cosmos, but I checked again my logbook and I did my PPL within 1 month and 23 days. And it was not cadet training, or any special fast track training, just normal full time without pushing anything.