Buttonville Airport . . . CYKZ

[Moose47]

Truthteller - can you tell what the winning numbers for the next Lotto 649 are going to be?????

[kzcvtm]

Why that's preposterous. Obviously Truthteller and Marhamresident are the same person according to biz jets and others. You have it all wrong.

You seem smarter than all the others. I would caution you to look at the discussions here and have your common sense guide you. Are you really going to believe someone who tries to say everyone who doesn't agree with him is the same person because for sure, no one else could have a different opinion. I'd be weary of anyone like that. They will tell you what you want to hear to take your money. If I was you I'd wait until TC root causes all the recent tragedies and see if there is some relation to the airport. Yeah, yeah everyone here will tell you it has nothing to do with the airport because it's safe, meanwhile no one knows the root cause of the crashes. So again, get ready to be told what you want to hear. If it were the skin off my back I'd wait and see else just fly out of another airport with a better record. Right now, the odds are against anyone flying out of Buttonville. 6 months, 6 dead.

Truthteller is a troll, just trying to stir up sh*t. Hasn't got two brain cells to rub together and only replies when his Mommy isn't watching him. He has no aviation experience. He knows nothing about the politics in Markham. Knows nothing about accident investigations. Knows nothing about ATC procedures in and around Buttonville. Knows nothing about Toronto Airways and their operations. Pretends he is knowledgeable but cannot back up what he states with any documented evidence. Total waste of bandwidth.

His buddy MarkhamResident hasn't responded to a logical arguement once all his concerns were addressed one by one. Ever since, this clown has been the only one 'trashing' Buttonville, which is why we all suspect that MarkhamResident and Truthteller are one and the same. Prove us wrong because we know you can't.

What he thinks he knows could fill the Bible, what he actually knows couldn't fill a postage stamp.

[Truthteller]

Truthteller - can you tell what the winning numbers for the next Lotto 649 are going to be?????

It's Truthteller, not Fortuneteller.

[Truthteller]

Why that's preposterous. Obviously Truthteller and Marhamresident are the same person according to biz jets and others. You have it all wrong.

You seem smarter than all the others. I would caution you to look at the discussions here and have your common sense guide you. Are you really going to believe someone who tries to say everyone who doesn't agree with him is the same person because for sure, no one else could have a different opinion. I'd be weary of anyone like that. They will tell you what you want to hear to take your money. If I was you I'd wait until TC root causes all the recent tragedies and see if there is some relation to the airport. Yeah, yeah everyone here will tell you it has nothing to do with the airport because it's safe, meanwhile no one knows the root cause of the crashes. So again, get ready to be told what you want to hear. If it were the skin off my back I'd wait and see else just fly out of another airport with a better record. Right now, the odds are against anyone flying out of Buttonville. 6 months, 6 dead.

Truthteller is a troll, just trying to stir up sh*t. Hasn't got two brain cells to rub together and only replies when his Mommy isn't watching him. He has no aviation experience. He knows nothing about the politics in Markham. Knows nothing about accident investigations. Knows nothing about ATC procedures in and around Buttonville. Knows nothing about Toronto Airways and their operations. Pretends he is knowledgeable but cannot back up what he states with any documented evidence. Total waste of bandwidth.

His buddy MarkhamResident hasn't responded to a logical arguement once all his concerns were addressed one by one. Ever since, this clown has been the only one 'trashing' Buttonville, which is why we all suspect that MarkhamResident and Truthteller are one and the same. Prove us wrong because we know you can't.

What he thinks he knows could fill the Bible, what he actually knows couldn't fill a postage stamp.

You're responses tell me everything. First of all you like to use my sayings. Thanks for the flattery. Next, you're just grasping man. You say you fly, you say you know a bunch of shit, meanwhile all you spew out is basically....nothing. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. But then again, I wouldn't expect anything more from a mere boy.

By the way I think I found your picture.

[Truthteller]

If I was you I'd wait until TC root causes all the recent tragedies and see if there is some relation to the airport. Yeah, yeah everyone here will tell you it has nothing to do with the airport because it's safe, meanwhile no one knows the root cause of the crashes. So again, get ready to be told what you want to hear. If it were the skin off my back I'd wait and see else just fly out of another airport with a better record. Right now, the odds are against anyone flying out of Buttonville. 6 months, 6 dead.

Simple question; which crashes, that have occurred at Buttonville recently, would have been prevented if they were flying from a different airport?

First, there were no crashes at Buttonville. Only planes that left Buttonville and some of them crashed shortly thereafter.

Second, anyone who can answer your question at this time is full of shit because no one knows the root causes of the crashes. But that doesn't mean that they possibly can't all/some be related. For example, the first one this year, the guy comes in to get his radio fixed. Somebody wrenches on the plane and it goes down. The second is a banner flyer who's stationed there and again goes down. The Seneca one, well again, it's based there and likely wrenched on over there too. Not saying this is what caused all the crashes, but one possible connection to the airport. Another very obvious one is the fuel. Is there something wrong with the gas? Are the tanks dirty and not being filtered? Is the gas tainted. And on and on. No one knows anything yet. The really humorous thing is that I see statements like, "the airport is safe", "we don't need to think about safety because the airport is safe". The latter is the most amusing to anyone who is really concerned about safety, especially public safety. Anyone who is truly occupied about safety is constantly vigilant with safety on their mind all the time.

In reality no one knows yet. But the one thing we do know is the facts. The truth. All the recent planes that went down left from Buttonville and crashed near it. Like I said in a previous post, no crashes in 20-30 years, and now 3 in 6 months with 6 dead. You decide if this is normal.

[dcabrown]

Not sure if 20-30 years without an accident is accurate but obviously the last year or so at Buttonville has been a very difficult period.

We are all saddened by those events and we ALL would like to find out the causes so we can prevent them from occurring. If there is an issue with the maintenance practices or fueling systems as you suggest, then it is in ALL of our interests to find out what that may be. No one will say otherwise.

Now, you keep referring to "the airport" as if it is some single unified beast when it is really not and since you claim you are an aviator, you should know that...

This thread has become a waste of space and time sadly.

As aviators, it is in our interests to work with the community around Markham, Siftons, all stakeholders etc. to find solutions to the airport (closing or not) that keeps everyone happy. But we cant get there with ridiculous conjecture, half truths and distortions of facts.

For instance, here's what I feel is one of the more important quote on here that no one really responded to from Hedley:

"......There are GA airports outside of Toronto, too. And they're all in trouble, because they've been dumped on municipalities who don't know anything about aviation and couldn't care less.

IMHO Buttonville, Bramption and Burlington are all doomed because of population pressure. Sooner or later, someone's going to want to build rabbit-warren condos on all that empty space and run away with a billion bucks.

But the bigger problem for GA is outside of Toronto, where all the small airports are on the endangered species list, and no one cares....."

Buttonville is only the begining. A lot of the GTA people on here are all thinking 5 years from now will be the end of the world when YKZ closes. But who will be next? Guelph?? (already up for sale) Burlington?? Oshawa??? Markham????

The pressures of population growth are not going to go away, period. And it is FACT that as a private airport owner, you would make WAY more money selling out to condo/office developers than trying to run an airport.

Thats not ever going to change, so what do we do about it?

Because as much as high costs are becoming the topic of the day, I for one just want to know that I'll at least have a friggin place to land in 20 years....

[fleet16b]

dcabrown

Very well said !!!
I couldn't agree more
Burlington and Brampton for sure will eventually be closed due to housing or airspace issues.
Guelph , Barrie both for sale.
The asking price at Guelph is 4.7 mil. and the owners say they won't take less.
It may be for sale for a long time at that price but to a housing developer that is no problem.
We estimate you could build 20 -30 mansion style home on the property.
At 650 k / home x 30 = 19.5 mil
The only saving grace for Guelph is that it is county land and not owned by the Town
Housing projects have been suggested before but the Town rejected the idea.
There are homes too close for Industrial expansion and there are industrial and a Quarry too close for homes expansion. Sort of a double edged sword.

[Truthteller]

Not sure if 20-30 years without an accident is accurate but obviously the last year or so at Buttonville has been a very difficult period.

We are all saddened by those events and we ALL would like to find out the causes so we can prevent them from occurring. If there is an issue with the maintenance practices or fueling systems as you suggest, then it is in ALL of our interests to find out what that may be. No one will say otherwise.

Now, you keep referring to "the airport" as if it is some single unified beast when it is really not and since you claim you are an aviator, you should know that...

This thread has become a waste of space and time sadly.

As aviators, it is in our interests to work with the community around Markham, Siftons, all stakeholders etc. to find solutions to the airport (closing or not) that keeps everyone happy. But we cant get there with ridiculous conjecture, half truths and distortions of facts.

For instance, here's what I feel is one of the more important quote on here that no one really responded to from Hedley:

"......There are GA airports outside of Toronto, too. And they're all in trouble, because they've been dumped on municipalities who don't know anything about aviation and couldn't care less.

IMHO Buttonville, Bramption and Burlington are all doomed because of population pressure. Sooner or later, someone's going to want to build rabbit-warren condos on all that empty space and run away with a billion bucks.

But the bigger problem for GA is outside of Toronto, where all the small airports are on the endangered species list, and no one cares....."

Buttonville is only the begining. A lot of the GTA people on here are all thinking 5 years from now will be the end of the world when YKZ closes. But who will be next? Guelph?? (already up for sale) Burlington?? Oshawa??? Markham????

The pressures of population growth are not going to go away, period. And it is FACT that as a private airport owner, you would make WAY more money selling out to condo/office developers than trying to run an airport.

Thats not ever going to change, so what do we do about it?

Because as much as high costs are becoming the topic of the day, I for one just want to know that I'll at least have a friggin place to land in 20 years....

"The last accident within its control zones was in the 1980s, said Sifton."

Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... in-markham

That's where the 20-30 years comes from. Not sure if it's accurate neither, but this is what Sifton has gone on record saying.

As to the problems of GA, it's quite simple to fix really. Find a piece of land that's just outside any major developments. Here the land is cheap and there are no residential concerns (noise/safety). Then find someone to build an airport and run it in a manner that generates profit and you're done. There will be no developers that want the land any time soon because there's no infrastructure for residential/commercial. After built, the airport needs to work with the local and federal politicians to ensure no development happens immediately near the airport. Once that happens, there will never be a problem.

[dcabrown]

Truthteller, ok not to be flippant, but there is not a "simple" solution and you are missing a point I made earlier.

You stated the solution is to find land "just outside any major developments. Here the land is cheap and there are no residential concerns (noise/safety)."

Firstly, land JUST outside major developments is still expensive to purchase! And on top of that, requires hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop into an aerodrome. The market value of land is priced to assume that the trend of urban sprawl will continue, and so even though its undeveloped, it is still expensive.
see MLS#: N1926969
Priced at $3.6M.

Additionally, I dont think you get how little profit there is to be made running an airport RELATIVE TO OTHER INVESTMENTS. - this is key, RELATIVE TO OTHER INVESTMENTS.

Assume just for fun, YKZ is profitable as an airport although I'm sure you'll probably claim it isnt. Say the Sifton family makes $100,000 per year net income (after paying all taxes, expenses, maintenance etc). The fact that the airport is profitable is irrelevant because the land it sits on can be used for real estate development which is far far more profitable than (by comparison) charging a few hundred bucks here and there for landing and tie down fees. Not sure if you live near YKZ or not, but the mass of land it sits on can be turned into multiuse residential condos and office space worth in the 100's of millions of dollars. I'm not exaggerating on that number. As a real estate developer I would be happy to pay the Sifton's $50M for the land so I can develop it and sell it for a quarter BILLION... and the Siftons would be happy to get a cheque for $50M because their profitable airport is by comparison, a crappy investment. And dont tell me theres some way an airport can financially compete with private free market development. You think Markham council will stop them? Why would they? When they develop property, they collect incrementally more property taxes, which benefits the city, council etc.

Now, I think ive heard you claim YKZ is poorly run/not profitable etc.. Well then what would you propose to turn a profit? Double everyones tie down fees? Double the hanger fees? double the landing fees?? You will quickly lose all traffic as they will leave for somewhere cheaper. Then what??

No disrespect to you personally but I think your solution is far too simplisitc for the many aspects that are impacting GA, not only in the GTA, but in North America. Also, I think its ridiculous you think somehow a private landowner/airport owner can somehow stop other private interests from development around you as you suggest. Theres nothing practically or legally that would give a private airport owner the "right" to stop or inhibit private development around the airport, other than regulatory requirements relating to building heights.

You wrote: "airport needs to work with the local and federal politicians to ensure no development happens".... Um, why do you think federal politicians have a say in municipal land development? You think the feds care about municipal zoning!?

Finally, even if all that happens and you claim there will be no problem "any time soon". Well, what about in 20 years once urban sprawl is again, knocking at the airports door. What then do you propose?? Owners sell out, aviators pack up and move the show even further outside the GTA!? Simple or not, your solution doesnt sound sustainable to me and is only kicking the can down the road...

[dcabrown]

As a follow up, I mentioned the following airport for sale which, has been on the market for a while.

Location, East Gwillimbury. MLS#: N1926969
Priced at $3.6M.

Property description (curtesy of MLS): UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY TO OWN 93.82 ACRES! Just North Of Queesnville Sideroad In Fast Developing East Gwillimbury. Future Aerodrome Site; Property Is Currently Being Enhanced To Allow Airplane Landing And Takeoff With A 4000 Foot Runway Potential.

This location is about 40km directly north of YKZ. Take note however that the airport is located in a "Fast Developing" area, so right off the bat, the pressures of urban sprawl exist, and this place is at least a solid 30mins north of the GTA via hwy 404.

Now say theres an invetor out there who has $3.6M to buy this land and for now lets assume it is already developed and there is a runway, fuelling facilities, electrical service, all the basic needs for an aerodrome.

Heres how private free market investors work...

With $3.6M, there are plenty of things they can do with that money. They can buy commercial real estate and collect office rent (8-10% historical return on equity (ROE). They can buy a portfolio of stocks, bonds, mutual funds etc (6-8% historical ROE). Or they can buy a government bond and collect interest of 4% per year. Lets say I go for the most conservative (safe) investment and buy that guvie bond at 4%... 4% return on $3.6M is $144,000/ year.

If you can find a way to generate $144,000 in net income from that property, thats listed above please tell us how.

Since apparently, this airport fits your "solution" which is "a piece of land that's just outside any major developments"... well this is it!!

After doing that math, fast forward 20 years, and that land is now worth $6.5M (3% per year land value appreciation increase over 20 years)

As a private investor, is that original $144,000 net income going to be sufficient compensation for the market value of the land?? NOPE. As an investor could you double tie down fees and landing fees to compensate for the relatively lower ROE you are getting? Not likely you can do so, without pricing out all your tenants or potential visitors. So then what? You sell, the airport goes away and the cycle begins again...

Like it or not, this is free market capitalism. And other than public municipal ownership of airports, you cant stop free market forces from turning airports into sh!tty investments for their private owners.

I'm not advocating for free market forces. I'm just calling it as it is. And at the end of the day, its not enough to simply generate a profit as you put it.

You've gotta understand that capital demands adequate compensation for its use or it goes elsewhere, which is exactly what is happening to YKZ.

[sarah23]

Buttonville, in consultation with Transport Canada with regards to noise abatement, two years ago have created north/south corridors along Woodbine Avenue to the north practice area and east corridor to the east practice area along the 407. (check out the latest Toronto TAC or the CFS, if you own one). Coming into Buttonville from the north and east, ATC reminds pilots to remain at 2000' ASL until entering the circuit, FYI. If you read the CFS, any takeoffs from Rwy 15 require minimum height of 1000' AGL before commencing any turns eastbound or westbound and right hand circuits. When leaving the runways, it is strongly recommended that flights climb to 2500' ASL to help in noise abatement. Further, while climbing to altitude, as a pilot you need high engine RPM to attain altitude. I think that Buttonville/TC have done what was necessary/required/requested by residents of the area. I lived for 10 years in Thornhill, and had more noise from trains than planes. Those who live nearby should understand this prior to purchasing a house near the airport, or better yet, sell their house to deaf people who the noise wouldn't bother. .

Hi I am new to this forum and was directed to it by a post on another forum. I am a Markham resident who lives in the old town of Markham around Hwy 48 between Hwy 7 and Bullock (south of 16th). I have lived here all my life and am a second generation in our approx 80 year old house. From what I’ve read I would say there is a lot of anger on the forum directed at the residents. I don’t understand the anger since the comments here have nothing to do with your airport closing, which is a decision that was made by the Sifton family. I have to tell KZCVTM that the airplanes do not travel along the 407 as you have stated but directly over our community (that predates Buttonville) and do so constantly. Today between 10am and 3pm there was one aircraft after another flying east-west (in both directions). If there really is a “corridor” along the 407 why are the pilots not following it? Today it was not just 1 or 2 but a constant stream, so I don’t think the pilots are following the “noise abatement” rules and air traffic control is not enforcing it.

I would like to hear from a reasonable person as I don’t want to be yelled at. Is there some one that we should call when we see flights not following the noise rules set by Transport Canada and Buttonville?

Please let me know.

Sarah.

[Hedley]

Is there some one that we should call when we see flights not following the noise rules set by Transport Canada and Buttonville?

Unfortunately, no.

[erics2b]

Is there some one that we should call when we see flights not following the noise rules set by Transport Canada and Buttonville?

867-5309

Ask for Jenny

[dcabrown]

Sarah,

you may be able to contact NAV Canada at the following:

1(800) 876-4693 or email service@navcanada.ca with your questions and concerns.

A few days ago there were several aircraft flying directly above my community at FL420, 5 aircraft (all 2-engined aircraft!), in just the short 10 minute time span I was outside! I havent gotten around to it yet as I'm still a bit angry about the whole ordeal, however I will likely contact NAV Canada via the above number in the very near future. Hopefully they get back to me as I find this situation (happens regularily) to be very frustrating. Aircraft should not be allowed to fly below FL420 as they generate substantial noise and polution that directly affects my community. Also, when I moved in to my location there were no aircraft flying over head and so I agree with you, there never should be aircraft flying overhead as the community has been around longer.

[Hedley]

I can't stand aircraft at FL420, either.

There's nothing more that I hate more than aircraft at FL420, carnies and the Dutch.

[sarah23]

you may be able to contact NAV Canada at the following:

1(800) 876-4693 or email service@navcanada.ca with your questions and concerns.

A few days ago there were several aircraft flying directly above my community at FL420, 5 aircraft (all 2-engined aircraft!), in just the short 10 minute time span I was outside! I havent gotten around to it yet as I'm still a bit angry about the whole ordeal, however I will likely contact NAV Canada via the above number in the very near future. Hopefully they get back to me as I find this situation (happens regularily) to be very frustrating. Aircraft should not be allowed to fly below FL420 as they generate substantial noise and polution that directly affects my community. Also, when I moved in to my location there were no aircraft flying over head and so I agree with you, there never should be aircraft flying overhead as the community has been around longer.

I'm don't know what FL420 is, but the planes that fly over my area seem to be coming and going from Buttonville, and are single engine type with some lower wings but mostly upper wings. For the Jenny number, is she at Transport Canada and is that a 1 800 number? Could you give me the full number? Is there not someone at Buttonville I could call, since they should also be concerned about these flights, since it puts a bad light on the airport? Thank you for your help and information.

[erics2b]

For the Jenny number, is she at Transport Canada and is that a 1 800 number? Could you give me the full number?

I was pulling your leg, and it appears it came off in my hand.

[Hedley]

The ones with the upper wings are worse than the ones with the lower wings, because they often act "uppity".

The worst ones of all have both upper and lower wings, which fight amongst themselves all the time. As you might expect these fights can get pretty noisy at times.

[dcabrown]

The number i provided is valid. No idea who you should ask for however.

Out of curiosity and so other members of this forum can learn from your in excusable experience, can you please explain in detail if there was anything specific that was very disruptive about these planes over head? Were they louder than usual? Were they flying dangerously low over the Old Markham area? i.e. in danger of hitting a tall building? Any idea how high they were? 1000ft? 2000 ft above ground? Is there ever jet traffic that you find disruptive? (i.e. Pearson traffic?). Just curious. Thanks for your response.

[dcabrown]

play nice ppl

[erics2b]

The worst ones of all have both upper and lower wings, which fight amongst themselves all the time. As you might expect these fights can get pretty noisy at times.

Yeah, the high pressure on the bottom of the top wing and the low pressure on the top of the bottom wing cyclone, similar to how tornadoes form. Problem is this can only happen so fast, because the airplane has a velocity after all, so this disturbed spinning air gets left behind, and doesn't get a chance to reach terminal circular speed, as it can on the ground (which is why they are louder on the ground). When this cycloning air doesn't reach terminal circular speed, it resonates with the propeller, forming a cone of very high pressure, dense air of a very large radius coming off the airplane, which is very loud if you are in that cone (the high pressure air acting on your ear is neither quite nor pleasant).

Triplanes actually cancel one another out, and as a result, are silent in the air!

[sarah23]

Buttonville, in consultation with Transport Canada with regards to noise abatement, two years ago have created north/south corridors along Woodbine Avenue to the north practice area and east corridor to the east practice area along the 407. (check out the latest Toronto TAC or the CFS, if you own one). Coming into Buttonville from the north and east, ATC reminds pilots to remain at 2000' ASL until entering the circuit, FYI. If you read the CFS, any takeoffs from Rwy 15 require minimum height of 1000' AGL before commencing any turns eastbound or westbound and right hand circuits. When leaving the runways, it is strongly recommended that flights climb to 2500' ASL to help in noise abatement. Further, while climbing to altitude, as a pilot you need high engine RPM to attain altitude. I think that Buttonville/TC have done what was necessary/required/requested by residents of the area. I lived for 10 years in Thornhill, and had more noise from trains than planes. Those who live nearby should understand this prior to purchasing a house near the airport, or better yet, sell their house to deaf people who the noise wouldn't bother. .

As I understand from KZCVTM above that for noise reasons the flight path to Buttonville is along the 407 now, is that true? Or is it like Hedley comment above, that no one on this forum (so far) cares to answer me seriously. To answer your question concerning jets, we don't have any issues with jets flying over us.

[erics2b]

In case you're interested, I drew a to-scale diagram of the above Maxwell effect:

[Hedley]

Yeah, the high pressure on the bottom of the top wing and the low pressure on the top of the bottom wing cyclone, similar to how tornadoes form. Problem is this can only happen so fast, because the airplane has a velocity after all, so this disturbed spinning air gets left behind, and doesn't get a chance to reach terminal circular speed, as it can on the ground (which is why they are louder on the ground). When this cycloning air doesn't reach terminal circular speed, it resonates with the propeller, forming a cone of very high pressure, dense air of a very large radius coming off the airplane, which is very loud if you are in that cone (the high pressure air acting on your ear is neither quite nor pleasant).

Triplanes actually cancel one another out, and as a result, are silent in the air!

I am humbled by the presence of genius. Author! Author!

"It's college ruled, I hope that's not too intimidating"

“You’re going to fast, can you just back up a little bit?”
“Alright. It’s a warm summer evening in Ancient Greece”
“Not that far back!”
“OK. At what point did you begin to feel lost?”
“I don’t know... where were we looking up at the night sky?”
“Greece”
“Damnit!”

“I have one question... what are subatomic particles?"
“A good question”
“Thank you”
“To answer it, we first must ask ourselves “what is physics?””
“Oh balls”
“It’s a warm summer evening in Ancient Greece...”

www.pittspecials.com/etc/18x.jpg

[bizjets101]

Sarah23,

Here are your contact numbers; http://www.markham.ca/Markham/Departmen ... leAirport/ .

Also to be clear, there was zero anger directed at the residents of Markham.

A recent poster using the name MarkhamResident - posted some very disrespectful posts regarding the recent Seneca College accident, as well as non-factual statements against the users of Buttonville airport.

He further plastered newpaper forums and other aviation sites as well as AvCanada with his rant - so I assure you absolutely nothing was directed at you, or your fellow residents.