Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

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Mechanic787
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Mechanic787 »

HavaJava wrote:They want it all and they won't settle for any sort of compromise.
With respect, sir, you may want to have a closer look at the situation. I do not wish to take sides in this dispute, but I would like to offer a comment. If any, any of the three scenarios that the proponents of the post-age 60 crew come to pass, there won't likely be any negotiation, whatsoever, particularly if either the court finds the exemption clause unconstitutional or Parliament repeals it. Court orders are not negotiable.

They are giving you good information, even though you don't like the message. May I respectfully suggest that you owe it to yourself to not let your opinion of their motivation cloud your judgment about the alternative scenarios that are ahead.

All the signs are there. The status quo is almost certainly unsustainable, and how you manage the consequences is in your hands.
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vic777
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by vic777 »

bcflyer asks ...
I would dearly like to hear how you intend to have senior pilots stay for years longer without negatively affecting the progression of the junior pilots.
I have a "flat pay/status pay", system that would solve this problem, other than that, it is impossible. Unfortunately your Union ACPA is against a flat pay system. Your Union ACPA wants to maintain the status quo. The problem is with ACPA and it's leaders. Simply put, they don't know what they are doing, the last two rounds of negotiations prove this.
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fish4life
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by fish4life »

a little bit of a side note but how does the pensions at Air Canada work, is it like some places where it is based on your BEST 5 years or is it your LAST 5 years salary, or is it a completely different system? Just wondering because if they do decrease the top end pay scale and increase the low end pay scale will this effect pensions at the company?
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Brick Head
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Brick Head »

Mechanic787 wrote:If any, any of the three scenarios that the proponents of the post-age 60 crew come to pass, there won't likely be any negotiation, whatsoever, particularly if either the court finds the exemption clause unconstitutional or Parliament repeals it. Court orders are not negotiable.
Once there is a court order, and or parliament repeals the legislation, (if that even happens) then the union and company are free, actually required, as parties to a newly declared illegal agreement, to work within its collective rights and accommodate the change. There will be no court order that collective bargaining is now illegal.

Everything within an agreement is hinged and connected in various ways. When one things changes others may have to as a result. The courts will have absolutely no appetite in preventing a union or company from using their legal right to collectively bargain in their own interest, and for the greater good. In fact they can't without cause.

The only thing they will say is stop terminating people at ..........

Just because mandatory retirement is repealed does not make people past a certain age special. It does not give them some sort of status to usurp the collective rights of the group they joined with their individual demands.

Everyone is equal. No one is special. We are all entitled to that which we collectively, freely and democratically have been allotted. No more, no less.

The issue before us, with a change in the age of mandatory retirement, is what to do with someone who has already consumed their allotment, yet chooses to remain working? That has nothing to do with age.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Brick Head »

Raymond Hall wrote:
To frame this issue in the context of individual rights versus collective rights is to sidestep the fundamental issue before us. Namely, compliance with the provisions of the Canadian Human Rights Act.
:rolleyes:

I can't believe you just said that. You actually believe this isn't about a balance between individual and collective rights??????????????????

For crying out load that is why mandatory retirement is an exception within the CHRA. Times change and the balance between competing rights change. It does not mean however that the idea of balance between collective and individual rights has now somehow vaporized. That's ridiculous.

Raymond. It is the main event. Everything else is the opening act.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Brick Head »

fish4life wrote:a little bit of a side note but how does the pensions at Air Canada work, is it like some places where it is based on your BEST 5 years or is it your LAST 5 years salary, or is it a completely different system? Just wondering because if they do decrease the top end pay scale and increase the low end pay scale will this effect pensions at the company?
Yes. We have an end loaded compensation system. If we flatten it pensions will get smaller.
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TyrellCorp
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by TyrellCorp »

Way to go Brick Head! AWESOME STUFF! I nominate you for president :supz:

LOVE this bit, "what to do with someone who has already consumed their allotment, yet chooses to remain working? That has nothing to do with age." This conjures up images of someone with cake all over their face after they've stuffed themselves silly start to look greedily at a kid's much smaller portion of cake so they can take it. Not only did they have their cake and eat it too, but now they want the cakes of others. :rolleyes:
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vic777
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by vic777 »

Brick Head says ...
The issue before us, with a change in the age of mandatory retirement, is what to do with someone who has already consumed their allotment, yet chooses to remain working? That has nothing to do with age.
consumed their allotment? consumed their allotment? ..... Brick Head, you funny guy! I guess V&K and everyone who follows will just keep working. The Court will have said that they, and only they, will decide when they have, "consumed their allotment". The issue before us is, "Who writes Brick Head's material?" V was hired at an age older than average at the time, by Sixty he had in no way, "consumed his allotment", similarly those who at Sixty have only Twenty years seniority, have not, "consumed their allotment". Basically, as in the USA nothing really changes except Pilots can now work past Sixty.
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TyrellCorp
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by TyrellCorp »

vic777 wrote:"Who writes Brick Head's material?" V was hired at an age older than average at the time, by Sixty he had in no way, "consumed his allotment", similarly those who at Sixty have only Twenty years seniority, have not, "consumed their allotment". Basically, as in the USA nothing really changes except Pilots can now work past Sixty.
Logic, good reason and honour are the authors of Brick head's posts.

WRT V being hired at an older age, well it was his choice period! He knew what the deal was and he accepted it just like we all did. I wasn't a spring chicken either when I got hired, but I knew exactly what I was getting into. It's been argued that they didn't sign anywhere or that they weren't given a choice, but that's irrelevant. They knew what the deal was and if it was unacceptable to them then they shouldn't have come. Simple! Go fly somewhere else. There was no one holding a gun to their head telling them that AC was the only choice. It wasn't like Russia in the height of communism where you were assigned your job and didn't have a choice.

You can't go and rob a bank and claim that you didn't agree to the rules that were in place and as such it violates your rights e.t.c.
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Dockjock
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Dockjock »

Hired at an older age- Man, am I sick of that stuff. Was he born at an older age? Did he graduate high school at an older age? Did he get his ATPL at an older age?

I've not come across a case that distills the term "sense of entitlement" into a finer whine than this one. Since when is it one's entitlement to a 30-year career at Air Canada? If one is hired at a younger age, then one spends comparatively less time earning money outside of Air Canada. Conversely, if one is hired at an older age, like 44, did such person endeavour to save any of one's earnings from the previous 20+ years of aviating prior to commencing one's entitlement at Air Canada?

Sheesh, even I, pathetic floatplane/tier 3 cum Air Canada pilot arrived on scene with an RRSP under way. I get the sense that some don't start saving any money at all until hiring on at Air Canada, whereby they develop the attitude that the AC pilot pension shall be required to carry them in style to their graves, regardless of the starting state of their own finances.
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vic777
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by vic777 »

Since when is it one's entitlement to a 30-year career at Air Canada?
Since August 28, 2009, and ACPA's bill keeps rising.
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Mechanic787
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Mechanic787 »

Brick Head wrote:The issue before us, with a change in the age of mandatory retirement, is what to do with someone who has already consumed their allotment, yet chooses to remain working? That has nothing to do with age.
How do you see that playing out in the context of your own specific collective agreement? What sort of changes would you expect to result, and would you expect other unions, including unions in other industries, to arrive at the same types of resolutions to the same problem there?
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Dockjock
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Dockjock »

I think genX and genY, despite the increasingly loud and hypocritical protestations to the contrary by boomers, are the ones that understand it is rare to work at one company for one's entire life, or for more than 10 years. Somebody hired at 44 still gets 16 years, well above the normal. That is, if we are still talking about what is so-called 'normal'. You got hired (by your own personal metric) late- get over it.
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Mig29
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Mig29 »

That is what I've been trying to say all along!! you guys hit it on the nail!

You can't expect that coming to AC will take care of all of your retirement issues and problems....some got hired there at 22, some in their later 40s....that's life and you have to accept the terms and conditions of the contract that you signed on your day of hire. I can't believe people can be so blind and argue this point after they've chose to stay and work their until their 60th birthday!??

I've worked at jobs that had no pension, some had RRSPs and some didn't have nothing at all! Is it the fault of my current employer that by the time I reach my retirement age that I didn't get to enjoy the full cake????? Come on that is ridiculous thinking!!
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Understated »

Brick Head wrote:I can't believe you just said that. You actually believe this isn't about a balance between individual and collective rights?????????????????? For crying out load that is why mandatory retirement is an exception within the CHRA. Times change and the balance between competing rights change. It does not mean however that the idea of balance between collective and individual rights has now somehow vaporized. That's ridiculous.
Let's suppose that the mandatory retirement exemption is either repealed or declared unconstitutional. I would be interested in how you seem to think that once mandatory retirement no longer exists that you can then, instead of dismissing pilots, do the equivalent, constructively dismiss them by altering the terms and conditions of their employment to ensure that they don't, as you say, "consume more than their allotment." Given that any action based upon age that, in the words of the CHRA, "deprives or tends to deprive an individual or class of individuals of any employment opportunities," such as pay and working conditions, is expressly prohibited, you would appear to have a problem. Have you even thought through what you are suggesting, especially in light of the existing potential liability to both Air Canada and ACPA of doing so?

Let's suppose, that each of the 150 or so pilots in line for their day in court wind up being awarded the same amount of cash that V&K were awarded. Say, for rough numbers, slightly over $125,000 each, with Air Canada and ACPA each stung by being required to pay half of say, $20 million.

Do you think that Air Canada would then still be willing to amend the collective agreement along the lines that you are suggesing after just paying out millions of dollars in damages for having already violated that section of the Act?"
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mbav8r
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by mbav8r »

I don't wade in too often on AC issues but correct me if I'm wrong, aren't you in negotiations right now? It will be decided by majority vote and if I were a junior guy there looking at a possible delay of getting my slice of the pie, I would not be voting yes for any contract that doesn't reflect the new reality. If the new contract has taken the collective pay and spread it out more equitably, I would vote yes. If it's still end loaded pay, I vote NO and if they are enough No's, back to the drawing board. I would think any FOs and junior Captains would likely vote no, I include junior captains because they are affected as much by stagnation as the FOs, ie; reserve for alot longer.
Anyway it won't have anything to do with age, just majority, and majority usually rules.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by yycflyguy »

Exactly right. There is a movement to energize and motivate the junior membership but overcoming apathy and communicating the issues is a hurdle. The negotiating process is not fully representative as the negots committee is heavily represented by senior pilots who have been known to have personal agendae. I am not optimistic with the intention of the negots committee or MEC to redistribute the wealth to compensate for the new reality.

I already know how I will be voting.
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Brick Head
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Brick Head »

Understated wrote:I would be interested in how you seem to think that once mandatory retirement no longer exists that you can then, instead of dismissing pilots, do the equivalent, constructively dismiss them by altering the terms and conditions of their employment to ensure that they don't, as you say, "consume more than their allotment." Given that any action based upon age that, in the words of the CHRA, "deprives or tends to deprive an individual or class of individuals of any employment opportunities," such as pay and working conditions, is expressly prohibited, you would appear to have a problem. Have you even thought through what you are suggesting, especially in light of the existing potential liability to both Air Canada and ACPA of doing so?
Understated,

This is not my opinion. It is the opinion of the Tribunal. And their opinion is based on jurisprudence. The ruling must be read as whole. None of us get to pick and choose the parts we are willing to accept. From the beginning of the release of the VK ruling it was clear to me parts of it were not understood. Or possibly just ignored, I don't know. If the VK ruling stands I will have to accept that mandatory retirement can no longer be used to protect the benefit system, and control distribution. You will have to accept that just because mandatory retirement ends, that does not mean that the balance between collective and individual rights also ends. That unions can no longer control distribution. It means the balance will be attained differently. Possibly a shift is likely in your direction, but nevertheless a new equilibrium will be attained between the competing rights. It does not mean individual rights all of a sudden trample collective rights.

Put another way. Just because the present method employed by bargaining agents to achieve balance between individual and collective rights (mandatory retirement) becomes illegal, does not mean achieving balance another way is also illegal. Quite the contrary in fact, since the Tribunal's basis for not allowing 15(1)c in the VK ruling was that this balance can be achieved through alternative means.

These are the Tribunals words. How many understand exactly what they are getting at here? If this statement looks ghastly out of place to you? Ask yourself what piece of this puzzle you are missing? Because it isn't a typo.

The alternatives to mandatory retirement, which are in use in other jurisdictions, effectively preserve the benefits of the current system without infringing a constitutionally protected right. How then can the goal of permitting freedom of contract in this area be sufficiently important to warrant overriding a constitutional right?

Read it over and over. The only reason freedom of contract is not sufficiently important to warrant overriding a constitutional right in this case, is because alternatives exist that can do the same thing. They are not saying individual rights now trump collective rights. They are saying do your collective distribution another way.

I keep repeating myself. At the end of the day there will be a balance between the competing Individual and collective rights in the absence of mandatory retirement. Where that balance is? How it will look for us? I have no idea, since there are so many different options, and possibly a few more twists through the courts. Just start researching what is going on in provincial jurisdictions, and how collective bargaining agents have dealt with the balance between individual and collective rights, as mandatory retirement was repealed. It is a mish mash. Some groups did nothing. Some created new work rules past a certain age. Some still leave their position and collect a pension at a specific age, but then can come back as a fill in. In all cases however the bargaining agent, through a democratic process decided what was best for themselves. Moreover they did so after learning mandatory retirement had been ended through the legislative process. And as you can see from the Tribunals statements above. The solutions they have employed are not unconstitutional.

There is yet another hole in your argument. If individual rights now trump collective rights as a result of the VK ruling as you contend, then the Tribunal erred when they did not allow 15(1)c to be applied. Apparently they were wrong when they assumed the benefit system could be preserved through other alternatives.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by vic777 »

mbav8r says ...
I don't wade in too often on AC issues but correct me if I'm wrong, aren't you in negotiations right now? It will be decided by majority vote ...
In practice the UNION tells the Pilots how to vote ... and they comply, that has been the tradition.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by cdnpilot77 »

vic777 wrote:mbav8r says ...
I don't wade in too often on AC issues but correct me if I'm wrong, aren't you in negotiations right now? It will be decided by majority vote ...
In practice the UNION tells the Pilots how to vote ... and they comply, that has been the tradition.

Change the tradition, think for yourself and vote for what's best for you, your collective colleagues and the masses of pilots that will follow long after you are gone and lastly the long term health of the company. That is the true spirit of a union, not a dictatorship.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Understated »

Brick Head wrote:
Understated wrote:You will have to accept that just because mandatory retirement ends, that does not mean that the balance between collective and individual rights also ends. That unions can no longer control distribution. It means the balance will be attained differently. Possibly a shift is likely in your direction, but nevertheless a new equilibrium will be attained between the competing rights. It does not mean individual rights all of a sudden trample collective rights.
I understood that point several posts ago. However, I asked a couple of very basic, practical questions and instead got an answer that is based on a philosophical argument mixed with some case law wording. Let me try again.

Question #1. If mandatory retirement is expunged (either by the courts or Parliament) do you see separate conditions being inserted in the contract to treat pilots over age 60 differently? If so, how do you see the employer and the union overcoming the restrictions in Section 10 of the statute?

Question #2: If either or both Air Canada or ACPA is / are ultimately required to pay damages to the 150 or so pilots who are currently waiting for their day in court, namely, about $20 million or so if we use the V-K numbers, do you think either ACPA or Air Canada, but especially Air Canada, would be eager to engage in a further violation of Section 10, after having just been stung for doing so?
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Brick Head »

Understated wrote:
I understood that point several posts ago. However, I asked a couple of very basic, practical questions and instead got an answer that is based on a philosophical argument mixed with some case law wording. Let me try again.

Question #1. If mandatory retirement is expunged (either by the courts or Parliament) do you see separate conditions being inserted in the contract to treat pilots over age 60 differently? If so, how do you see the employer and the union overcoming the restrictions in Section 10 of the statute?
Philosophical argument? It is the charter. It is about rights. Rights always clash. Balance is always a consideration.

Let me try again from a different angle specifically because you appear to be reading section 10 of the CHRA in isolation.

Section one of the Charter says that governments may limit Charter rights so long as those limits are ones that a free and democratic society would accept as reasonable.

Why? The answer is because our society believes individuals can not just do anything they want at the expense of others. A perfect example we could all agree on is a three year old driving a car. Insurance is another. Environmental laws in many cases limit individual rights. The list goes on and on. The point I am trying to make here is that section 10 is not a stand alone, concrete, do not touch, read in isolation, section of the CHRA as you seem to imply. It must be read within the context of the whole document.

It is rare, if not impossible, to find anything society finds as a reasonable limit on the charter when dealing with race, religion or gender. However, quite the contrary when dealing with age, as limits on individual rights are considered reasonable in many cases. If section 10 was read in isolation then 3 year olds would be driving and a ten year old bellying up to the bar. We all know neither happen and that is because section 10 is not read in isolation, and section 1 takes precedence. Our society believes they are reasonable limits.

Now back to our issue. Mandatory retirement at this point in time is still considered a reasonable limit on the charter (save two people) because up to this point society believes the benefit out weighs the charter infringement. So lets say in 3-4 months the Federal court upholds the VK ruling and that changes. Mandatory retirement is no longer considered a reasonable limit on the charter because our evolving free and democratic society no longer accepts it as reasonable. That does not mean other methods of preserving the benefit system would not be considered a reasonable limit on the charter in our free and democratic society. It only means mandatory retirement is no longer an acceptable method of achieving the balance between individual and collective rights.

To answer your question.

Are separate work rules past a specific age considered a reasonable limit on the charter in our free and democratic society for the purpose of the greater collective good? According to the Tribunal. Yes. According to what is going on at the Provincial level. Yes.

To flip the question around.

The ability for unions to continue end loading a specific age for the purpose of the greater collective good. Methods to retain that ability in the absence of mandatory retirement, would they be considered reasonable limits on the charter in our free in democratic society?

To say no to this question means individual rights all of a sudden trump collective bargaining rights to the detriment of everyone who follows the change. That individuals, rather that the collective decide distribution. That end loading pay for the purpose of pension benefit is no longer possible.

And my favorite because it articulates just how different age based discrimination is versus other forms of discrimination simply because we all age. There is an inherent equality in it.

That society accepts that the individual rights of those who are a specific age now, trump the individual rights of those who will be the very same age later????????????


Understated wrote:Question #2: If either or both Air Canada or ACPA is / are ultimately required to pay damages to the 150 or so pilots who are currently waiting for their day in court, namely, about $20 million or so if we use the V-K numbers, do you think either ACPA or Air Canada, but especially Air Canada, would be eager to engage in a further violation of Section 10, after having just been stung for doing so?
We will not move on fear mongering.

Remedy for VK applies to just them. No one else. Neither ACPA or AC are breaking the law. Until it changes there is no liability. And then only if we do not abide by it.

[156] Given the then state of the law, the respondents acted in good faith and reasonably in applying the mandatory retirement policy to the complainants. As to considerations of fairness to the litigants, in my view, a fair balance is struck, on the one hand, by not imposing on the respondents the burden of damages for a policy that was legal at the time, and, on the other hand, by awarding damages to the complainants from the time the policy was declared to be illegal.

[95] As this Tribunal noted in its earlier decision on liability, the complainants may be unhappy about ending their rewarding pilots careers with Canada but that situation cannot be viewed in isolation. It must be seen in the context of a system that was designed to assign the responsibilities and benefits of being a pilot at Air Canada over different stages in their careers. All pilots at Air Canada understand that they will share these benefits and burdens equally at the appropriate stages in their careers.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

The more I read the opinions of those defending ACPA's chosen path in this matter, the more I am reminded of a passage that Frank Herbert wrote in his epic novel, Dune.
The Sardaukar's eyes, Paul noted, carried a glazed expression of shock. A blue bruise stretched from the bridge of his nose to the corner of his mouth. He was of the blond, chisel-featured caste, the look that seemed synonymous with rank among the Sardaukar, yet there were no insignia on his torn uniform except the gold buttons with the Imperial crest and the tattered braid of his trousers.

“I think this one's an officer, m'Lord,” Gurney said.

Paul nodded, said: “I am the Duke Paul Atreides. Do you understand that, man?”

He seemed too submissive to Paul, but then the Sardaukar had never been prepared for such happenings as this day. They'd never known anything but victory which, Paul realized, could be a weakness in itself. He put that thought aside for later consideration in his own training program.
It is, no doubt, none of my business. But this is a public forum.
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Understated »

Brick Head wrote:It is rare, if not impossible, to find anything society finds as a reasonable limit on the charter when dealing with race, religion or gender. However, quite the contrary when dealing with age, as limits on individual rights are considered reasonable in many cases. If section 10 was read in isolation then 3 year olds would be driving and a ten year old bellying up to the bar. We all know neither happen and that is because section 10 is not read in isolation, and section 1 takes precedence. Our society believes they are reasonable limits.
From what I see, you are mixing apples and oranges; more specifically, the statute and the Charter. You are evidently confounding Section 10 of the Canadian Human Rights Act with some other statutory provision, then applying the Section 1 Charter test to that. That is not the way it works.

As I understand it, the Section 1 Charter test does not come into play until there is a violation under some other provision of the Charter, such as the equality provisions. For example, if Section 10 was found to violate Section 15(1) of the Charter, as the mandatory retirement exemption was found to do, then the Section 1 test is made.

Neither Section 7 or Section 10 of the Canadian Human Rights Act has been found to violate any provision of the Charter and likely never will. So the Section 1 test under the Charter does not factor into our decision process at all. In other words, there is no balancing of conflicting objectives, at least as far as Section 7 or Section 10 is concerned. It is valid law that is still in force; the Tribunal and the courts have no option but to uphold it, not interpret it in the context of some other objective.

What you have is two provisions of the CHRA that say, "no discrimination on the basis of age." Section 7(b) states that you cannot “differentiate adversely in relation to an employee,” based on age. Section 10 says that you cannot deprive an individual of any employment opportunities, based on age.

The Tribunal and the courts are bound by those statutory provisions. They do not come under any type of Section 1 interpretation that invokes any trade-off or balance, especially a trade-off involving of a “suggestion” by a Tribunal in one historical decision that “alternative means” can be used to accomplish what is assumed to be a legitimate, although unarticulated premise of some other legislation, especially legislation that has been repealed or struck down.

You seem to believe that your presumed inarticulate premise (protect the deferred compensation system) to a legislative provision that is no longer law can be used to override the express language of existing statutory prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of age. That belief is entirely unfounded.

Do you see my point? The Tribunal and the courts are required to uphold compliance with the CHRA Section 7 and Section 10 provisions. They have no discretion, and there is nothing to balance. ACPA and Air Canada must comply with those statutory provisions, or face the consequences in damages.

That is why I asked you earlier, how do you expect to overcome these legislative constraints? By way of a new Memorandum of Agreement? If so, at what risk? $20 million in damages, growing at $1.5 million per month is not enough to pay? Does ACPA have any kind of independent review process in place to examine the underlying assumptions and fallacious reasoning of its decision to blindly keep fighting the inevitable?
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Re: Federal Court Judicial Review Hearing Completed

Post by Understated »

Brick Head wrote:We will not move on fear mongering. Remedy for VK applies to just them. No one else. Neither ACPA or AC are breaking the law. Until it changes there is no liability. And then only if we do not abide by it.their careers.[/i]
So tell me if I understand your position correctly. V-K applies only to V-K. There has been no Charter liability decision on any other complaints, so there is no liability accruing re them. If there is a Charter decision on them, arriving at the same decision that the Tribunal arrived at on V-K, Charter damages will then apply to those pilots only from the date of that decision forward?

So there are no downside aspects of continuing along the present path? There is no accruing Charter liability, even though the Tribunal has already found the provision of the collective agreement to be of no force and effect by reason on the unavailability of the mandatory retirement exemption?

It must be nice to live in such a Pollyanna world, where one can take the most favourable view of every development and not have to deal with reality. Reality, for example, as in the Thwaites cases, where liability will flow for each pilot from their respective dates of termination. That flight has not arrived yet, even though it is about to land. So you don't need to worry about its cargo. You can deal with that once it arrives...
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Last edited by Understated on Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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