Close Call at CYBW...

[star57]

Greetings;
Hope you are all doing well, I thought about asking for your opinion on a delicate issue.
Today I was doing circuits at BW and was coming in on final to 34...about 3/4 mile, aprox. 700AGL, and all of a sudden I see a DA20 from CFC passing overhead about 100 feet above me .

This AC had aknowledged having trafic in site, but he may have been refering to other traffic, or God forbid he aknowledged without having sight of the traffic.

I contacted the tower and informed them of the traffic that had just passed above, a couple seconds later he aknowledged on the radio that he had the wrong traffic in sight.
I guess I came close to a mid Air...this guy had turned base into oncoming traficc on final, what would you do...I view this as being serious.
Discussed it with a senior instructor at the CFC, but being Sunday there was no CFI or assistant CFI...odd .
I asked the tower to confirm AC Ident. and they sugested I call the tower manager during business hours.

Apreciate your comments...

[Ralliart]

Shit happens.

Keep your eyes open and outside at all times.

Don't assume another VFR aircraft is exactly where they say they are, or are doing exactly what they say they are doing.

Keep your eyes open and outside at all times.

[Nark]

I can't stress what ralliart has said enough.

Keep one eye outside at all times. And don't trust what others say on the radio as the gospel.

[atpl53]

What you should do about it is your personality. What do you want to happen? Do you want him/her violated? Do you want them strung from the nearest tree? Or, are you willing to say that they made a mistake, one that was potentially lethal. I would bet that if they were any kind of pilot that they had brown stains on their underwear once they realized what happened.

I actually think that you may want to consider your part in the scenario before you go on a witch hunt. Why were you complacent enough in the cockpit when you were at a position where there is the likelihood of things going wrong? One of the things which I learned very early in my career is that as a pilot my job is to manage risk. The circuit is one place where risk is high. Therefore it is my responsibility to be where I should be and to make certain that others are where they should be, and to never ever trust that they are telling the truth. I now fly in a radar environment 90% of the time and I still expect the other guy to make a mistake. It's what helps to keep me alive.

[sheephunter]

You guys are talking here like it is star57's fault he couldn't see the other aircraft through his rearview mirror while it was overtaking him from 100' above? Maybe he doesn't need written up, but should be sat down and discuss proper circuit procedures and the problems with flying around with his head up his arse. Personally, I may have landed right behind him and dragged him out of the aircraft and personally interviewed him.

[CpnCrunch]

Yes, it was the other guy's fault, but things like this happen at busy VFR airports - as others have said, you need to be paranoid when in or close to the circuit. Even then, there is still a chance you might not see a potential collision.

If you want to be extra safe, get some kind of traffic display - virtually everyone at YBW has a xpdr switched on, so that will give you an extra safety layer.

Regarding the near miss, it does sound like the other guy realised his mistake so I'm not sure it's worth taking it further.

[Posthumane]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but CYBW is a tower controlled airport, with radar, right? Or is there no radar coverage that low in that area? I understand that ultimately it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid traffic, but I would think if two aircraft were on top of each other on final the controller might notice and say something. After all, he/she would have cleared them.

[FlaplessDork]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but CYBW is a tower controlled airport, with radar, right? Or is there no radar coverage that low in that area? I understand that ultimately it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid traffic, but I would think if two aircraft were on top of each other on final the controller might notice and say something. After all, he/she would have cleared them.

CYBW does have radar but they get it from CYYC. The hills around Calgary prevent them from receiving targets around circuit altitude and below. Sometimes they get a return, sometimes not. It takes time for the radar to update and things can happen quick. The inner controller's eyes are primarily out the window anyway.

Here are my points regarding this situation:

• Count your traffic. If you're number 3 and you don't see 2 other aircraft ahead of you, stay in the downwind.
  Keep your eyes outside. See and avoid.
  There is nothing wrong with calling the school's CFI. As a former CFI I would like to hear about these events to use them as an opportunity for the individual to learn something.
  The tower probably has already CADOR'd it and TC will follow up with the flight school if needed.

[mike53]

Most here seem to think that the errant pilot has learned his lesson and that should end his or her misery.Star did absolutley nothing wrong .Most planes don't have rear view mirrors so he could have his eyes looking out the whole time and it would not have changed the outcome one bit. If it were me I would persue the issue until a) he or she had there license suspended for a period of time and/or b) he or she was told that they require one on one time with an instructor in the proper procedures in the circuit.
Star was obviously number 1 and on final the errant pilot was obviously no.2 and said he had the traffic. There could not have been a third aircraft on final that had yet to touch down as he would have been given No.3 behind star .So for the errant pilot to say he had the traffic was a lie to cover his ass .There was no other traffic on final to see other than star.
If you don't have the traffic and report that you do your a dangerous commodity and an accident waiting to happen.Such behavior manifests itself in more than just poor circuit habits.
I'm not asking that he be tied to a pole and whipped for his mistake,I am simply saying that having to swallow your pride and admit you need more training is not so bad and will certainly lessen the chance of it ever happening again.Just ignoring it,I'm not so sure.

My views are my own.

[trey kule]

These things do and will happen. From what you are saying no one was intentionally trying to do something they should not have been doing.

No one was injured, there is no need for moral indignation, no lesson to be taught through punishment.

So here is advice from an old guy who has been around many years......Forget it.

If you are planning an aviation career this is only the first time for you. Expend your energies on iliminating those who do buzz jobs, willfully ignore instructions, or wh refuse to use proper radio protocal.. They are the dangerous ones, for one getting them out of the business will we be safer..

[Tim]

If it were me I would persue the issue until a) he or she had there license suspended for a period of time and/or b) he or she was told that they require one on one time with an instructor in the proper procedures in the circuit.

remember those words when you make a mistake

[mike53]

If it were me I would persue the issue until a) he or she had there license suspended for a period of time and/or b) he or she was told that they require one on one time with an instructor in the proper procedures in the circuit.

remember those words when you make a mistake

So your saying what?That because we are human and invariably make mistakes that I should forgive everyones transgressions just so I don't have to take responsibility for my own mistakes.Star came within 100 feet (100 ft between 2 airplanes both moving at 100mph on short final is very close) of being killed because the other pilot broke the rules endangering not only his life but Stars and any passengers that might have been present.A circuit is one of the safest places to be if everyone plays by the rules.
If a DOT inspector was present to witness this I doubt very much he would pat him on the back and say "Well I think you've learned your lesson lad we will let it go at that"

If you think it right that you should look the other way when someone comes close to killing someone else due to negligence because you hope to get the same treatment if you make a bonehead move then that is your decision .

Some mistakes are minor and non life threatening ,these I will ignore,but if I'm in Stars predicament I will report it and if I ever make such a bonehead 'mistake' as you call it then I expect to be held accountable.

[Braun]

Didn't the OP say that there is a possibility he had the wrong traffic in sight? If so, how is that breaking the rules Mike53? Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes it gets through the various safety methods implemented to prevent them.

[Posthumane]

People do make mistakes and the safety system sometimes does break down. The thing to do then is to figure out how to improve the system so that the mistake is less likely to happen again. If the mistake is caused by someone being negligent or careless then yes, reaming them out and punishing them might get the point across that they need to be more diligent. But not every mistake is simply because a person is being careless. The person flying the other aircraft may have genuinely been looking for the traffic, and thought he saw the correct airplane. I don't know exactly why this happened since I wasn't there and don't know the details, but I do think it should be investigated further. If the two planes had collided there would definitely be an investigation and possibly corrective action such as procedure changes. The fact that they didn't collide, due to luck, does not reduce the need to figure out what happened.

So, let the speculation begin. If the pilot claims he saw the wrong traffic then there must have been other traffic ahead of Star on final. Since he was 3/4 mile back, I find it unlikely that there would be another aircraft ahead of him that hadn't already touched down. Perhaps a more clear call as to the position of the traffic ahead of him would have improved things? Something along the lines of "XYZ, cleared number 2 to land, following cessna on 3/4 mile final." I realize that this is a bit wordy, but if it reduces the chance of collision... any thoughts?

[mike53]

Didn't the OP say that there is a possibility he had the wrong traffic in sight? If so, how is that breaking the rules Mike53? Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes it gets through the various safety methods implemented to prevent them.

What I have a problem with is,if there were 3 planes then Star would be no.2 and the OP would have been given no.3.So ATC would have informed No3 where No2 was(that's who your following)Which ever plane no.3 claimed he saw ,is now his only concern.So we will give no.3 the benefit of doubt and assume he was actually looking at no.1.
No.1 had a call sign ,lets call him Papa Bravo Papa.PBP called final and was given landing clearance.He then lands.Star now calls final and we will call him Quebec Echo Quebec.No3 now knows ,if he is paying attention, he was looking at the wrong traffic so what does he do he continues his approach.As soon as he heard QEQ call final he should have added power and did a 180 to the right and inform ATC what was going on.
What I'm saying is no matter what situation you set up, if you look and listen there is absolutely no excuse for what happened. Play it through in your head. Put just 2 planes in the circuit and it's worse because he obviously lied about having traffic or he lost sight of star in which case he had no business turning base until he either found star or informed ATC that he no longer had the traffic .

I'm sorry but the OP needs to have his knuckles rapped.

[SAR_YQQ]

I'm sorry but the OP needs to have his knuckles rapped.

Concur - whether it be officially or unofficially - someone needs to have a sit down with errant driver.

Anyone who thinks "shit happens, let it go" get your head out of your ass.

[trey kule]

Before I suffocate SAR, I want to clarify exactly what I intended to say.

Mistakes do happen. Where they are honest mistakes I dont think punsihment, violations etc. are they way to make things not reoccur.

As I understand it, there was no willful wrongdoing here. A sit down and chat..absolutely..We used to call that a dressing down if I remember correctly. But punishment? Violations?
Nope, I just dont think that will achieve the ends in the situation described here.

Accountability is right and proper. And the rectification should be geared to that end.

Many years ago I was approaching to land and one of those pesky little tutors was doing an approach on thesame runway from the opposite way. I went right. Tower told him to break right. He broke to the left...I got a vision of a tutor in my windcreen that not even the snowbirds guys see.

I understand he had a little talking to about thinking before acting, and as far as I know went on to a very successful career..now I have to wonder what more would have been achieved by having that pilot CT'd, or in the civilian world , violated, license suspension, fined....

I am not advicating a lack of accountability., Only the method of resolution posted by some here.

[star57]

Guys...I had the oportunity to talk to him...but decided against it, I talked to one of his senior peers, I'm confident that either Tom the CFI has already talked to him or maybe Pierre the GM former CFI. had I talked to him I may have said something that I would regret.
I agree...we all make mistakes, I have made a few, I had no chance to see him, I had a long down wind because of traffic...I believe that I was within my 1 mile final, about 700 AGL, he missed me by 50 to a 100 feet, he basiclly turned left base East, as I was on final, and either he was still higher than me or he pulled up to clear me, I did see him at an angle towards the south east.
I hear you guys about no going ballistic with him and thats why I have elected to have his supervisors talk to him and if need the TC people.
I want to talk to the Tower Manager and have him review the tape or talk to the ATC on duty and let them make the final.
I dont want to be the one responsible for wrecking his future career, but I dont want to be his victim either...

The intent of posting here was to get an opinion from other fellow pilots... obviouslly we have a wide range of them from "suck it up, and move on... "to lets write him up"

Lets hope he reads these posts and thinks about it.

Cheers everyone and Merry Christmas

[old_man]

Within 1 mile and 700 AGL? Something is not making sense to me here. You sure you two weren't a lot farther out or lower?

[W0XOF]

According to what the OP wrote, the on duty controller would have been required to file an AOR (possible OI??). TC would then investigate.

[westcoasting]

its people like you who make the world a bad place....

[TomHouston]

Star57,
I am sorry for the incident that occurred in the circuit on Sunday last. I would appreciate if you could contact me at the Calgary Flying Club 403-288-8831, so that we can discuss it further. If you do not wish to phone me, if you could tell me the time this occurred, and I will investigate further
Tom Houston
CFI Calgary Flying Club