City Centre Medevac Study

[swordfish]

except you don't fly critical paitents where minutes matter you fly stabalized paitents if there not stabilized they don't fly, and those lights and sirens on top of the ambulance and the hiway rather than the residential roads that the bus is travling on mean a difference of maybe 15 min in heavy traffic. There is an operator that does fly critical paitents and for that reason they land on the hospital roof or the grass out in front now if you can convince the city to move the runway/ramp on top of the alex you might have an argument here.

errrr, hello, dude...? That's the way we haul 'em all the time. Smashed up thoraxes and lungs in snowmobile accidents; hauled out of communities where their life is hanging on a thread; kept alive by the incredible skills of our Medic North team who sustain them on life support all the way to Edmonton for 2½ hours...some of them are emotionally draining trips for our medics AND the crew.

Get a grip...or maybe you are not a medivac pilot...?

[aviator2010]

errrr, hello, dude...? That's the way we haul 'em all the time. Smashed up thoraxes and lungs in snowmobile accidents; hauled out of communities where their life is hanging on a thread; kept alive by the incredible skills of our Medic North team who sustain them on life support all the way to Edmonton for 2½ hours...some of them are emotionally draining trips for our medics AND the crew.

Your runway stands in the middle of 1 billion dollars worth of condo's, 20 000 construction jobs, 10 million worth of annual property tax revenues for the city. you want to argue the number of medivac flight's where 10 more mins on the ground after the transfer has happened is the reason you should keep the city center airport? good luck with that.

[JAG]

Interesting that many MANY cities elsewhere have embraced small airports but Edmonton refuses to.

Wonder how the others did it, since come on, they're losing revenue.

2010 your arrogance is amazing. That you discount the value this facility has provided for YEARS is amazing. You obviously have not seen first hand what YXD means to western Canada as a whole, not just the pockets of Edmontonians. Infrastructure benefits the greater good. It has boiled down to medevacs as the sole basis for retaining the airport, but there is much more benefit than that.

Less of a drive to work? Get real. I for one have never ever lived in Edmonton but have used the facility for a long LONG time.

Signed: someone that has a clue about aviation and infrastructure.

[5x5]

2010 your arrogance is amazing

Unfortunately it's his ignorance that's amazing.

in the middle of 1 billion dollars worth of condo's, 20 000 construction jobs, 10 million worth of annual property tax revenues for the city

Those construction jobs are there regardless of where the condos are built. And the property taxes accrue wherever the condos are built - just as much tax revenue if they're in Millwoods, Castledowns, Clareview, wherever. The only way the jobs or taxes would be new money to Edmonton is if the development would bring people to Edmonton that otherwise wouldn't live here. And hopefully no one is silly enough to think that a high-density development in the midst of a mix of heavy industrial (CN rail yards) and light mixed (manufacturing, city staging yards, NAIT parkade) will attract new citizens. People move here for jobs, they don't move here because of some "marvellous" high density neighbourhood development.

As well, a recent article in the Journal went into detail about the glut of condos on the market that isn't forecast to subside for a number of years.

So with no actual, additional revenue or job creation, Edmonton's City Council and the Airport Authority are hell-bent on destroying an existing revenue generator and job creator that has the potential to be so much more valuable with promotion and support for additional development.

What's going to replace the lost jobs (and potential for so much more) in the midst of a high density urban housing development?

[godsrcrazy]

except you don't fly critical paitents where minutes matter you fly stabalized paitents if there not stabilized they don't fly, and those lights and sirens on top of the ambulance and the hiway rather than the residential roads that the bus is travling on mean a difference of maybe 15 min in heavy traffic. There is an operator that does fly critical paitents and for that reason they land on the hospital roof or the grass out in front now if you can convince the city to move the runway/ramp on top of the alex you might have an argument here.

errrr, hello, dude...? That's the way we haul 'em all the time. Smashed up thoraxes and lungs in snowmobile accidents; hauled out of communities where their life is hanging on a thread; kept alive by the incredible skills of our Medic North team who sustain them on life support all the way to Edmonton for 2½ hours...some of them are emotionally draining trips for our medics AND the crew.

Get a grip...or maybe you are not a medivac pilot...?

Maybe the GNWT should go back to the 90's when they had a Jet there that would get the Medivacs to Edmonton in 1.3 instead of 2.3. With that jet they could do Calgary or Vancouver faster then the B200. The truth be known they put a price on peoples heads way back. Oh lets not forget they also decided for a period of time that flying a king air 90 at 3.5 hours was fine when they dropped the Jet for lower prices.

[Tailwind W10]

Just to add something to the previous post (and I am not disputing anything said), but the drive from the north end of the airport to the Grey Nuns hospital can be done in 15 minutes. This is done at the speed limit and waiting for most traffic lights. I realize this is under ideal road conditions, but ambulance drivers have training for winter ops though. Right?

With respect Commonwealth, this is not correct. I live a couple of blocks from Grey Nuns, I work just south of the Nisku / EIA turnoff in north Leduc. My daily commute is minimum 25 minutes in summer, a little longer in winter. MapQuest corroborates 25km / 22 minutes travel time between the terminal building and Grey Nuns hospital. There's not much for traffic lights, just 3 or 4 up 91 Street or 50 Street depending on the route driven. The concerns about traffic jams with each new snowfall are very real, I've been in 3 hour-long jams on the QEII so far this winter. Undoubtedly more to come.

Gerry

[jeff_w_yeg]

Interesting story just posted to Global Edmonton's website:

Muni development sales worth up to 85 per cent less than estimate: report...Annual tax forecast slashed to $20 million from up to $68 million

I don't want to say "I told you so", but...

[Infinitair]

Just to add something to the previous post (and I am not disputing anything said), but the drive from the north end of the airport to the Grey Nuns hospital can be done in 15 minutes. This is done at the speed limit and waiting for most trafic lights. I realise this is under ideal road conditions, but ambulance drivers have training for winter ops though. Right?

The Medievac study presented to City Council states that 60% of trauma patients go to the University Hospital. 40% go to the Royal Alex. That study also concludes that the times would be at least 40 minutes under ideal conditions to the Alex. Patients do not go to the closest hospital. They go to the hospital where the proper medical staff are working at that time for that particular case. All calls from the doctors come into a central room downtown where the sending doctor is patched through to the recieving doctor based on who is on staff at that time. (Very simplistic explanation). I have been there and watched it happen.

The Grey Nuns doesn't take trauma patients as per usual. In addition, the Neo Natal team is usually dispatched from the Royal Alex and those babies go back to the Alex, contrary to the public's belief that this is handled by the Stollery. Just to put a little perspective on the idea that distance is not important.

[Heliian]

Unfortunately, noone cares anymore. It's all about the numbers, what is cheaper is now better. Those few extra lives lost are the cost of doing business. I think it's all horseshit and the medevac and aviation industry on the whole are suffering with all of these "amalgamations". The nice thing about privatization is that your taxes don't pay for it, the downside being cost cutting over everything else. Welcome to the list edmonton. A close second to buttonville or the toronto island city centre billy bishop memorial airport.

[aviator2010]

what is cheaper is now better. Those few extra lives lost are the cost of doing business.

finally someone who gets it. there may be a few people that are effected but at what price. Does anyone truly understand how many zero's are in a billion dollars

[rex sterling]

Aviator 2010, again as I said before. Your arrogance, ignorance, and just plain old stupidity are astounding. A few lawsuits could take alot of zero's from that billion that you speak of!

[Geo]

finally someone who gets it. there may be a few people that are effected but at what price. Does anyone truly understand how many zero's are in a billion dollars

An historical comparison:

The Ford Pinto Cost Benefit Analysis

Estimated 180 deaths from burns resulting from design flaw
Estimated 180 burn injuries
2100 Burned vehicles
Legal liability $49.5M
Cost to correct design: $137M
Decision: Not profitable to correct the design

Do you remember the Ford Pinto?
Would you have bought one?
For your daughter?

g

[aviator2010]

A few lawsuits could take alot of zero's from that billion that you speak of!

so the city buy's EFC a new hanger at namao who else is going to sue?

[Lurch]

so the city buy's EFC a new hanger at namao who else is going to sue?

Have you read anything about the current situation or are you just pulling this out of your dark recesses?

How many lawsuits have already gone to court, and how much has this already cost the city?

Do you truly think that the city is going to be able to break all of the current leases? How many zeros do you think this is going to take out of your Billion dollars?

Next, how much do you think it's going to cost to tear down all of the Hangars, buildings?

How much to tear up the rwys, taxiways, and ramps?

After all of that, they have the issue of contaminated soil. If anybody believes the last studies estimate I have some property to sell you.

So how many zeros do you think will be left after all of this?

Finally once the city has spent all of this money, who do you think is going to get the profit off of the land? In case you still haven't removed your head, the answer is the developer, who hasn't to this point spent any money.

So the City of Losers is going to spent probably close to a billion dollars just so their developer buddies/brother in laws can make the money. Way to go Edmonton this is why you will always be a wannabe city.

P.S one final question, does the City truly need this land, if so, for what?

Lurch

[azimuthaviation]

A close relative of mine was 240km from edmonton when he started feeling chest pains. After getting an ECG in the local hospital it was discovered he was having a heart attack and flown to the Royal Alec. Those minutes counted. Extra minutes flying over Edmonton hospitals to the international then backtracking to the city would have been minutes his heart was starved of oxygen. Fortunately the damage was stopped sooner than that and he is alive today ten years later. Now I dont fly medevacs nor do I have any personal or financial gain to be had whether the runway stays closed or open, but anyone who thinks that time is not a factor in these cases is just plain ignorant. If time wasnt a factor why are they on planes to begin with?

[godsrcrazy]

A close relative of mine was 240km from edmonton when he started feeling chest pains. After getting an ECG in the local hospital it was discovered he was having a heart attack and flown to the Royal Alec. Those minutes counted. Extra minutes flying over Edmonton hospitals to the international then backtracking to the city would have been minutes his heart was starved of oxygen. Fortunately the damage was stopped sooner than that and he is alive today ten years later. Now I dont fly medevacs nor do I have any personal or financial gain to be had whether the runway stays closed or open, but anyone who thinks that time is not a factor in these cases is just plain ignorant. If time wasnt a factor why are they on planes to begin with?

You have some valid points.
First off not sure if you noticed but STARS continues to grow. In my opinion it won't be long and medivacs within radius you speak will be done by STARS and they deliver direct to the hospital.

Why do they use planes is a good question considering the fact that the governments of the Alberta, Yukon, NWT and Nunavut all spec King air 200's. If they all went to Jet service from Northern alberta and the Territories there probably wouldn't be any time difference going from the Edmonton International to the U of A then from the old muni to the royal alex.

As i mentioned in an earlier post the NWT and Nunavut government already decided that price over speed does matter. They did this when they insisted on King air 200's. This may be because years ago when i was up north i would venture to say that most flights i did were not all that time critical again in my opinion. So yes the Government's up North are very ignorant.

[yodan]

Infinitair: Good on you to keep a grounded view on Medevacs. I have flown Medevacs for over 7 years in Northern Alberta and I truly understand the situation. CYXD plays a key role as you have explained so well.

There are some good posts with good arguments; trying to see both sides of every story is what grown ups do and both sides of the arguments need to be considered. But for the life of me, I can't understand how a fellow aviator (I actually doubt he's a real pilot) would present his arguments in such a fashion that makes everyone's blood boil. Can you not be civil about the way you present your arguments? I will overlook the fact that your "facts" are for the most part skewed or incorrect, Aviator 2010, you obviously know NOTHING about medevacs and if a single life or more is worth less than the so called billions you are talking about, I hope one of your close relatives is one of them; perhaps you will understand then...but I doubt it. I've had them born and I've had them die in the back of my airplane and your words are nothing short of criminal.

If your flying skills are as dull as your brain and your spelling, please let me know when you are flying next...I'll take the bus. Do us all a favour and just go away. Do you actually eat an extra bowl of "stupid" every morning or were you born that way; you are definately "touched"

[looproll]

aviator2010 is just "stirring the pot"

[aviator2010]

I will overlook the fact that your "facts" are for the most part skewed or incorrect, Aviator 2010, you obviously know NOTHING about medevacs and if a single life or more is worth less than the so called billions you are talking about, I hope one of your close relatives is one of them;

see now you have carma issues. I was disscusing buisness but you specificly want some one close to me to die to punish me. That's fucked dude might be time to come out of the north for a couple weeks and regroup, that 7 years is getting to you.

[Bones]

http://www.spelling.hemscott.net/

[RatherBeFlying]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... ivacs.html

The Alberta government is examining the idea of using the runway at the Edmonton Garrison as a place where medical flights could land.

Talks have been underway with the federal government ever since Edmonton city council decided to close down the City Centre Airport to free the lands for development.

[WileyCoyote]

Another government "deal" that will end up costing twice as forecast. A project where the only people winning will be the developers laughing all the way to the bank because the city will be the one paying all the reclamation costs. I don't know how many of you actually drive the 'ol No.2, traffic isn't getting better each year either. Whats it going to be like to get an ambulance through ten years from now? I'll bet that "oh so valuable" land will only be 25% developed by then, and like what happens in every city, "I wish we still had another airport."

[NO LINK*]

Agreed. The only thing not considered in the Garrison deal is vaseline and duct tape. The Alberta tax payers are letting an incredible piece of infrastructure fall through the cracks. Gosh--what would cost compare to re-service 16/34 versus an abandonded airport with no facilities. Yes if you are really quiet you can hear those at the ERAA and city laughing at this one. Come on Alberta wake up!

[Indanao]

it wouldn't be the first time an airplane has hit that building

In how many years ?? Topic is what are the opinions of the service providers. Are you a
service provider? No? Are you just trying to discourage involvement by anyone who's opinion
may differ from yours.

[godsrcrazy]

I doubt that this will save any travel time to the hospitals. I have not drove this route in a long time. I would guess that an ambulance can get from the international airport to the University hospital quicker then a ambulance from Edmonton Garrison to the Royal alex. Traffic and highways coming into the North side of Edmonton use to be a joke. In my opinion this will do zero.