Local IFR clearance?

[DanWEC]

I've just been browsing some US threads about what happens if you encounter IMC while enroute to destination, and/or the field is below VFR minimums, and you haven't filed IFR. (Assuming pilot has IR).
They make mention of simply requesting "local IFR" from the tower when in range. Is this just a US thing? I was under the impression you'd have to call up FSS, file IFR in the air, then commence the instrument approach.

[bravowhiskey]

We do this all the time on the east coast, just call center and ask for an IFR clearance to abc, they just say "cleared to the abc vor maintain 5000, squawk 1234" thats it.

[200hr Wonder]

More commonly referred to as a pop-up IFR.

[RVgrin]

Check out this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/system/183174-1.html

Yes, it was written by an American, but VFR into IMC has killed so many people that - someone explained to me - the regulators have recently instructed ATC on both sides of the border that they must immediately issue (pop-up) IFR clearance upon request.

Can any controllers verify if this is, in fact, the policy?

[DanWEC]

Thanks guys.
This appears to be a prime example of one of those things that isn't mentioned anywhere in the AIM, CARS or during training unless by chance your instructor mentions it. A quick search yields mention of it only on enthusiast website boards and related sites. None in TC sites.

It's repeatedly frustrating how there is such a "practicality gap" in training.

Bravo-you mentioned calling centre-I'm intrigued by these guys saying that they are getting their clearances by the tower at the destination?

Edit- the last post popped up as I was writing this. Good info.

[Stallspin]

.

[kevenv]

In Canada this is like a 20 second ordeal and voila you are now IFR.
"Center, it's FABC"
"FABC, this is Center, go ahead"
"Center, its FABC, 20 miles SE of CYAB, VFR flight from CYBA to CYAB, 10 500 feet, requesting IFR clearance to CYAB"
"FABC squawk 1234"
"FABC you are radar identified, cleared direct CYAB, climb maintain 12000"
"FABC is cleared direct CYAB, climb 12000"

Almost. You still have to contact FSS/FIC and file an IFR flight plan (especially if you have some distance to go to destination). If you are almost at destination, probably not a big deal, remember though you still have to close your VFR flight plan when you land. Center doesn't file an IFR flight plan for you, nor do we close your VFR flight plan. Remember, an IFR clearance and an IFR flight plan are two different things.

[PunkStarStudios]

It will depend on the destination airport.
For example, if you are flying VFR and you were planning on going into Portage on an itinerary flight but run into IMC, Winnipeg will want you to have a flight plan before you arrive (in fact I think it's 30 or 60 minutes before you arrive or something like that but I suspect there may be wiggle room). So the radio work may be something like :

Winnipeg Radio, this is XXX.
XXX, go ahead.
XXX is on a VFR itinerary flight to portage, but we're running into unexpected weather and would like to file an IFR flight plan in the air and divert to Winnipeg.
<You'll exchange some information and they may will probably ask you if you have a master on file anywhere (London etc.)>

Winnipeg Centre, this is XXX. We XXX miles on the XXX radial out of XXX, level at XXX.

From there you'll pick up your clearance and off you go.

Now if you want to go into someplace like Sarnia (non-towered). Call up Centre and just ask for an IFR clearance from present position to the Sarnia Beacon.

One thing I tell everyone. Get flight following for everything you do. First off they like to talk to you - but it just makes it more seamless to transition into IFR if you're already talking to them.

And with respect to getting IFR clearance from the tower for an approach... my understanding is that this simply isn't available. They can only clear you for a simulated approach. Real IFR approaches have to come from Centre/Terminal etc. Again - this is my "understanding", so I won't be too surprised if I am proven wrong.

[kevenv]

And with respect to getting IFR clearance from the tower for an approach... my understanding is that this simply isn't available. They can only clear you for a simulated approach. Real IFR approaches have to come from Centre/Terminal etc. Again - this is my "understanding", so I won't be too surprised if I am proven wrong.

Your understanding is correct. The only correction is they don't clear you for a simulated approach either, they approve it.

343.2
Do not clear an aircraft for a simulated
approach. You may, however, approve a
simulated approach provided: (P)

A. VFR conditions exist at the airport;
B. traffic permits; and
C. you instruct the aircraft to maintain VFR at
all times.

343.2 Phraseology:
SIMULATED (type) APPROACH APPROVED.
MAINTAIN VFR AT ALL TIMES.

[Pratt X 3]

Perhaps this might be what those Americans were talking about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_en_route_control

[Bushav8er]

I've asked the Americans about their 'pop-up' IFR before and it is basically an IFR clearance for when you encounter IMC. Here in Canada it seems that we have the same thing BUT ATC likes you to file an IFR plan (ATC guys can correct me here); They'll give you the clearance but then ask you to contact FSS to file and then come back (to centre). My thinking is that here they just want more info on a/c type, equipment, departure/destination etc.

It would be nice, and handy, if you could get just an IFR clearance for an approach without filing though. There are days you start out VFR and by the time you are finished and heading back its down - take the SVFR if possible but a simple IFR clearance for an approach would be a nice option.

Of course there and here, you must be IFR rated and the aircraft equipped appropriately. Centre will give aid via 'instructions' if you get stuck (declare) in IMC as VFR including no DG steering (vectors).

[shitdisturber]

I've gotten an IFR clearance from arrival before when my destination went IFR earlier than forecast, no big deal since they already had a VFR flight plan on me. Ironically I shot the approach and landed while various US airliners, with all the bells and whistles, were holding overhead because the weather was below their company minimums.

[x15]

This saved my bacon one day.

With an OPS spec for low level VFR with pax I routinely go places that don't have an IFR approach and even if they did I have so many people and enough cargo to tip the scale toward VFR fuel only.

On one occasion I was enroute back to YTH and the ceiling started coming from down from 400' fast and night was quickly approaching. Going back wasnt an option because low level VFR at night in poor vis is too dangerous for my liking. Got within 5 miles of YTH and had to get a clearance because I lost the ground at 200 agl with forward vis about 2 miles.

Centre gave me a clearance no problem and vectored me onto the ILS and got down at minimums. Next guy behind me had to miss. I thought I was going to get violated so I called YWG ACC and they said it was common. That I shouldnt plan on doing this but its preferrable to having a CFIT.

Glad this thread popped up. Because like most out there I didn't know this was an option until I needed it. Then I worried about getting violated. So this should be something everyone doing low level vfr should be aware of.

[Bushav8er]

no big deal since they already had a VFR flight plan on me.

Yes, ATC needs one or the other, the issue is with times where you are not on a plan but out on a 'company' note.

Ironically I shot the approach and landed while various US airliners, with all the bells and whistles, were holding overhead because the weather was below their company minimums.

LOL - same deal with bush ops, weather below is fine (uncontrolled) but the IFR guys miss due to minimums.

So this should be something everyone doing low level vfr should be aware of.

Most definitely BUT, again, if you and the aircraft are so 'entitled' (unless you declare an emergency and then its still available under different 'rules'.)

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

I will speak from a Terminal perspective.

If someone calls requesting an IFR clearance the first thing we do is look to see if there is a flight plan sitting in the system waiting. If not you will generally be asked when you filed, what the proposed time was, from where, etc. If you are needing it because of unexpected IMC then avoid the whole song and dance by giving letting us know right away.

Nothing fancy just something like "Arrival this is F-ABC, weather has come down we would like an IFR clearance to C???"

It is simple but tells us a great deal and saves us wasting time. We know not to look for something we won't find, know that it is somewhat imperative, and a place to start the clearance from. Pretty much immediately you will get Radar Identified and a basic clearance. we will worry about things like what altitude you want later. You will get something that is safe and separated.

If you are landing at my airport I don't care about a flight plan or anything else since I will be providing the alerting anyway. If you are leaving my airspace I will be expecting you to take care of the items like getting a flight plan filed with FSS with alternate, souls, fuel, etc. The idea is you require the clearance to A) be safe, and B) remain legal. I won't deny it except for traffic. I may not be able to issue it immediately but will endeavor to provide you with something to ensure you can do both A and B.

All that being said please don't use this option to avoid delays. Sitting at a remote airport waiting for an IFR clearance (due to either inbound or outbound traffic, or both) depart into marginal weather and then request the IFR. This is poor airmanship and only serves to further clog the system. We understand that weather is dynamic and things change. Also better to call before it turns to total shit and there are fewer options. I would much rather get the call when you are still sitting at 1200 and 5 miles and not 500' and 1.

I've asked the Americans about their 'pop-up' IFR before and it is basically an IFR clearance for when you encounter IMC. Here in Canada it seems that we have the same thing BUT ATC likes you to file an IFR plan (ATC guys can correct me here); They'll give you the clearance but then ask you to contact FSS to file and then come back (to centre). My thinking is that here they just want more info on a/c type, equipment, departure/destination etc.

It would be nice, and handy, if you could get just an IFR clearance for an approach without filing though. There are days you start out VFR and by the time you are finished and heading back its down - take the SVFR if possible but a simple IFR clearance for an approach would be a nice option.

Of course there and here, you must be IFR rated and the aircraft equipped appropriately. Centre will give aid via 'instructions' if you get stuck (declare) in IMC as VFR including no DG steering (vectors).

The flight plan is really between you and TC. It is a regulatory issue and serves to ensure alerting. If you don't care about either do as you like. If you ask for a clearance I will provide it based on traffic. We send you to FSS to file only to protect you.

As I mentioned you can get the approach without filing, I would rather and IFR clearance than a SVFR.. However if I have an aircraft that routinely requests a pop up without filing I will some point be having the pilot contact the unit and have a conversation about recommended operations.

If a VFR aircraft reports encountering IMC and says nothing else we will ask if both the aircraft and pilot ore rated for IFR. If so issue an IFR clearance. If not we will declare the emergency for you (if you don't) and provide whatever assistance we have available. (not too many DF steers left in Canada)

[Therewewere]

How easy it is depends a great deal on which center you are dealing with. Edmonton Center is very accommodating and will give pop up clearance's with virtually no hassel. (HeadingAltitudeSpeed sounds like your from Edmonton Center). Montreal on the other hand is near impossible to get a Pop up. They almost always will tell you to file an IFR Flight plan with the closest FSS. Winnipeg is kind of the middle of the road.

Getting a Pop up into Southern Domestic Airspace around Iqaluit is a real bear, while at the other extreme, entering Southern Domestic Airspace around Inuvik in the West (Handled by Edmonton Center) is no problem at all.

It's probably the same in the States, depends on which center you are dealing with.

[KK7]

My understanding was that part of the reason for needing to file an IFR flight plan while in flight if requesting to switch to IFR, is to ensure you fit the requirements. Mainly I'm speaking of IFR Alternates. Depending on your operation (Private or various commercial operations), if VFR you may only have the fuel to go to destination +30 minute reserve, as opposed to having fuel for an alternate plus IFR reserves. Although FSS/ATC won't check this, it puts you on record of selecting an alternate which means you've chosen it because you are carrying the legal fuel for it. If ATC simply gives you a "pop-up" clearance and the weather continues to drop below forecast (assuming you thought it was going to be VFR on arrival) and have to go missed, and you no longer have the fuel to go anywhere with an approach. In the US, you likely have an approach available to you in close vicinity to any airport, so it may not be as important to have an alternate selected before you receive your IFR clearance.

This is just what I understand though - I'm open to arguments against this.

[pilotidentity]

Thanks to the ATC guys or gals that posted great info here (as well as the others). Cleared up some questions I had.