Amazing story of courage

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Amazing story of courage

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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by bandaid »

A great read.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by Mr. North »

A good read for sure.

I was surfing wikipedia one day and came across Witold Pilecki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki

I was actually pretty surprised I hadn't heard of him before or that Hollywood hasn't turned his life into an anti-war blockbuster.
An epic life story and his demise is horribly tragic and unjust.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by North Shore »

They're called the 'Greatest generation' for good reason. I make a somewhat morbid habit of reading the obituaries in the Telegraph on a weekly basis, with specific interest in the WW2 veterans. Many of the combat veterans were incredibly courageous (would you volunteer to climb out on the wing of your plane to put out a fire? Didn't think so..) as were many of the non-combat vets, especially members of the French resistance etc..
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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by warbirdpilot7 »

Great post....It is amazing the sacarifice veterans from all major conflicts make in the face of combat. I wish schools spent more time with stories like these.

I am lucky enough to have the opportunity to go to airshows in the US and Canada and meet our veterans and listen to them talk. I am amazed at what they went through, and we should all be forever greatfull to them. My grandfather was in the RAF in WW2 and was sent to Canada to train Canadian crews on Lancasters. My earliest memories as a boy, was sitting on his lap and having the difference between a Hurricane and a Spitfire explained to me.
The point is if you have family members who have served, talk to them and let them know you care.

I now have his RAF wings(He passed in 1990) and when I display these priceless aircraft at venues, I get thanked by the "Greatest Generation" for keeping their memory alive. We are the ones that owe thanks.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by bizjets101 »

There are many books, videos, and documentaries on Mai Lai - and I agree absolutely that what Hugh Thompson Jr. on that day, was nothing short of the definition of heroism, 'in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity.'
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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by Siddley Hawker »

Plug Irena Sendler into Wikpedia and read the result. She was actually nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and lost out to some guy who did a slide show on global warming.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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She lost to Al Gore. How terrible is that?
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Not to side track the thread from these folks, and the heroism they displayed.

The Nobel Prize(s) has lost all importance in my book, since the likes of Al Gore and somebody else won it last year.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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[quote] She lost to Al Gore. How terrible is that?

Terrible - yes. Surprising - no. But surely very ironic. Both global warming and Polish underground resistance are referred to as “inconvenient truth”.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Not to take anything away from WWII vets, and the "greatest generation"...(??). But I have to mildly point out, there are some young folks of THIS generation, (and sadly, they are almost always young) who are as we speak, doing some things that require incredible courage in some pretty nasty places. Without fanfare, without expectation of glory, just quietly doing the job they've been sent to do.

I'm not glorifying war or even want to get into the politics of the "war on terror". But whenever I see yet another fresh-faced photo wearing a beret in the newspaper, the latest victim of an roadside IED or whatever, who was I'm sure every bit as terrified as our grandparents in a Lanc...it makes my stomach lurch into my throat with the loss, and I feel a keen sense of gratitude to that individual and his family. Perhaps some of us can no longer thank our grandparents who aren't around anymore, but we could show our support for the folks who are still out there risking, well, everything.

Let's not lose sight of the present with our remembrance of the past hey?
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Yes, this guy has courage for sure, and did the good thing:
Hugh C. Thompson, Jr. (April 15, 1943 – January 6, 2006) was a United States Army helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War. He is chiefly known for his role in stopping the My Lai Massacre, in which a group of U.S. Army soldiers killed, tortured, and mutilated the bodies of several hundred unarmed Vietnamese civilians.
Unfortunately he is just a normal guy among monsters.

But honnestly if we have to speak about Vietnam war, I am sure that in the reality there is much more amazing courage stories among vietnamese kids, mothers and fathers who saw their country invaded by murderers ready to use napalm against little girls. Those stories you won't find them in wikipedia, there is no vietnamese language on wikipedia.

As for WW2, The US arrived at the very end in Europe (1944), only after the russian army walked in Berlin, and when Europe already lost 50% of its adult men because they fighted 5 years nonstop (official army or resistant) and were about to win against nazy (Nazy were retreating since 1942). The same goes there, many amazing story of courage (millions?) among european families who sent all their money (and european gold) to the "free" and "neutral" US who built (with european knowledge and money) weapons and made huge amount of cash$$$$$$$$ while europeans were fighting and dying, wife girls kid included, but amazing stories you will never learn. The real story behind if you ask historians is nazy were losing anyway in Europe even without the late US army "help", but please don't tell anybody as hollywood would lose its credibility.

When Irak invasion started, I remember I thought: here we go again, making the future "HEROES", that we will soon find in the american medias, even movies. Real heroes, sometimes whole irakies families taking decisions to the death? You will never hear anything about them.

The black and white vision of the world and the american habit to rewrite history to fit its own culture since the 50s makes me extremely uncomfortable. I have a feeling a time will come when north america will wake up after the party with a terrible hangover.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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What history books are you reading?
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Welp, there goes this tread.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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The ones you can find in good universities.

If I said something wrong, then tell me the truth.

Some more if you want: the americans where not even sure Japan surrendered or not when they wanted to try their first european made nuclear bomb, killing a entire city of civilians. Same thing for the second. (150.000 civilians killed) Yeah I know I didn't watch pearl harbor, sorry about that my bad.

If you want some more let me know.

Hiroshima:
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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My ex-junior high school principal was a member of the Canadian contingent taken prisoner by the Japanese at Hong Kong on Christmas Day 1941. After being taken to the homeland, he and his comrades were put to work at slave labour in the mines and shipyards around Nagasaki. He survived, and he credits his survival to the A-bomb dropped on that city on August 9th 1945. To cut a long story short, during the Peace and Love decade every once and awhile at some function or other, some individual would don a cilice and bemoan the poor innocents who died by the bomb. Phil had a standard answer which I will quote in its entirety: "What part of the expression "@#$! 'em" do you not understand?" That is from someone who was there, did that and got the T-shirt, not from someone looking down the wrong end of the telescope from sixty years on.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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I had no intend to say nazi or japanese during the war were angels. It was not my point at all. And of course I don't defend them.
And I don't need to find any teacher, I could directly speak about my family who fighted during the war. But it is not even the point neither.
My point is the world is not white and black, and nowadays more than ever it has many colors. Now more than ever everybody think he is right in our stubborn and closeminded world. That is what this topic made me think. And I have many stories about WW2, nazy, moon race, the US, false assumption, surprising facts... But that is enough for today, I am afraid we are not ready to hear some ennoying facts.
I just hope that one day somebody who killed innocent civilian, girls with napalm, kids with his gun won't be called a hero anymore. And war (especially nowadays) won't be a subject of honor for anybody. War is shit, and even the "good side" commit atrocities because behind war we will always find human beings. Negotiation, delay, or cancel a war project is always better than feel sorry or be stuck with no choice but to kill.
And I hope one day we won't have to read some insulting post like the above anymore, who cannot imagine what is it thousands of innocent families and kids burnt just because this part of the strategy.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

Post by Nark »

SunWuKong wrote: yadda yadda.
Thank you for derailing this thread.

First, Maj Thompson stood up, during a period when he could have hid in a corner. He did right, in a time of wrong.

Mr Pilecki, is simply amazing. He volunteered to go to a concentration camp, in order to send intel to the allies. Then did it again after the war when the communist's were running the show.

Then we have Ms Sendler, who risked her life many times over to save 2500 kids from going to the very camps Mr Pilecki was in.

Then we have Sunwukong. I'm not going to debate what you have to say. You have no merit. EDITED
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Common boys, play nice. Yes, war is much uglier than in Hollywood “feel good”movies.
And yes, civilians die, even little girls, and very often this is justified and legal under intentional law. I think it was Bomber Harris who said that the whole city of Dresden was not worth one bone of an allied soldier. Read up on Just War, if you interested in morality of war. It goes back to Cicero, so it is nothing new.
That does not in any way distract from the heroism of veterans, who by the way put everything on the line for you to have a comfort of your liberal views.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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>>>But honnestly if we have to speak about Vietnam war, I am sure that in the reality there is much more amazing courage stories among vietnamese kids, mothers and fathers who saw their country invaded by murderers ready to use napalm against little girls. Those stories you won't find them in wikipedia, there is no vietnamese language on wikipedia.">>>

I did not know the VC or NVA used napalm. How could I have missed that?
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Then we have Sunwukong. I'm not going to debate what you have to say. You have no merit. EDITED
If you didn't want to debate why did you call my name and wrote an entire nice and polite post...

My grand parents went to war, and not all of them survived. And I am myself a former paratrooper who went to africa in the 90s and saw mutilated bodies (yes I know maybe not the best choice just after high school). But the ones (ethnic group) we tried to help, the victims, attaqued the other (rival) ethnic group as soon as they could, not only using gun/weapons but axes aswell and became torturer.
When I left, I saw the official government and medias of many western countries telling a story that I didn't recognize. Ever since I have a total different viewpoint about hate, war, insult, official government information. And I know that in a war good and bad, (or good and evil for the ideologist and religious ones) are sometimes extremely close. I learnt aswell that it is extremely hard to counterbalance official propaganda, as propaganda is flattering ego, basic instincts power and motivates hate of its nationalist citizen ---don't fool yourself this is true for any country, if for you hero plus flag means tears and animal instincts/desire of power and unlimited pride, you are also victim---.

I trust universities and historians only, because years later I could find the real story in some of their university book.


Finaly, look at this topic. Did I say the initial poster (or the ones after) were wrong? No, I even said that the person they mention did the good thing. I ve just shown the real atrocity of the war (modern or not), the one we don't want to look because it hurts a bit our theories. What is the result, when I am not even against anybody: hate and insult.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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SunWuKong wrote:The ones you can find in good universities.
So the ones you were fed by a professor who was extremely left leaning?
If I said something wrong, then tell me the truth.
Ok.
Some more if you want: the americans where not even sure Japan surrendered or not when they wanted to try their first european made nuclear bomb, killing a entire city of civilians. Same thing for the second. (150.000 civilians killed) Yeah I know I didn't watch pearl harbor, sorry about that my bad.
Wrong. The Americans demanded that the Japanese surrender in the Potsdam declaration in July of 45. The Japanese government specifically ignored it (they stated that they would ignore it), and on July 31, Hirohito demanded that Japan be defended. Japan didn't surrender until nearly a week after Nagasaki, and had previously stated they would not surrender. There was no uncertainty.

Apparently your education at a "good university" didn't include a class on not talking out of your ass and looking up your "facts" first.
If you want some more let me know.
No, you've made your level of intellect clear.
Hiroshima:
Yea, radiation burns are bad. I know. So are gunshot wounds. More people died in the battle of Okinawa than died in the two atomic bombings combined. But apparently having fewer people die as a result of an atomic bomb is worse.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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SunWuKong wrote: I trust universities and historians only, because years later I could find the real story in some of their university book.
argumentum ad verecundiam

Ask your university books what that means, and why it's a problem.
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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SunWuKong wrote: But honnestly if we have to speak about Vietnam war, I am sure that in the reality there is much more amazing courage stories among vietnamese kids, mothers and fathers who saw their country invaded by murderers ready to use napalm against little girls. Those stories you won't find them in wikipedia, there is no vietnamese language on wikipedia.
What's this then?

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trang_Ch%C3%ADnh
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Re: Amazing story of courage

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Gar Alperovitz, Lionel R. Bauman Professor of Political Economy at the University of Maryland is the author of Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam and of The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb.



This weekend marks the 60th anniversary of the August 6, 1945 bombing of Hiroshima. One might think that by now historians would agree on all the fundamental issues. The reality, however, is just the opposite: All the major issues involved in the decision are still very much a matter of dispute among experts. An obvious question is why this should be so after so many years.
Did the atomic bomb, in fact, cause Japan to surrender? Most Americans think the answer is self-evident. However, many historical studies�including new publications by two highly regarded scholars--challenge the conventional understanding. In a recently released Harvard University Press volume drawing upon the latest Japanese sources, for instance, Professor Tsuyohsi Hasegawa concludes that the traditional �myth cannot be supported by historical facts.� By far the most important factor forcing the decision, his research indicates, was the Soviet declaration of war against Japan on August 8, 1945, just after the Hiroshima bombing.

Similarly, Professor Herbert Bix�whose biography of Hirohito won the 2000 Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction�also writes in a recent article that �the Soviet factor carried greater weight in the eyes of the emperor and most military leaders.�

Many Japanese historians have long judged the Soviet declaration of war to have been the straw that broke the camels back�mainly because the Japanese military feared the Red Army more than the loss of another city by aerial bombardment. (They had already shown themselves willing to sacrifice many, many cities to conventional bombing!)

An intimately related question is whether the bomb was in any event still necessary to force a surrender before an invasion. Again, most Americans believe the answer obvious�as, of course, do many historians. However, a very substantial number also disagree with this view. One of the most respected, Stanford University Professor Barton Bernstein, judges that all things considered it seems �quite probable�indeed, far more likely than not�that Japan would have surrendered before November� (when the first landing in Japan was scheduled.)

Many years ago Harvard historian Ernest R. May also concluded that the surrender decision probably resulted from the Russian attack, and that �it could not in any event been long in coming.� In his new book Hasegawa goes further: �[T]here were alternatives to the use of the bomb, alternatives that the Truman Administration for reasons of its own declined to pursue.�

(On the other hand, one recent writer, Richard Frank, argues Japan was still so militarily powerful the U.S. would ultimately have decided not to invade. He justifies the bombing not only of Hiroshima but of Nagasaki as well. Japanese historian Sadao Asada believes that �there was a possibility Japan would not have surrendered by November� on the basis of the Russian attack alone.)

What did the U.S. military think? Here there is also dispute. We actually know very little about the views of the military at the time. However, after the war many�indeed, most�of the top World War II Generals and Admirals involved criticized the decision. One of the most famous was General Eisenhower, who repeatedly stated that he urged the bomb not be used: �t wasn�t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.� The well-known �hawk,� General Curtis LeMay, publically declared that the war would have been over in two weeks, and that the atomic bomb had nothing to do with bringing about surrender. President Truman�s friend and Chief of Staff, five star Admiral William D. Leahy was deeply angered: The �use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.�

Some historians believe such statements may have been made partly to justify postwar funding requests by the various military services. Several years after the war General George C. Marshall did state publicly that he believed the bombings were necessary. On the other hand, long before the atomic bomb was used Leahy�s diary shows he judged the war could be ended. And Marshall is on record months before Hiroshima as suggesting that �these weapons might first be used against straight military objectives such as a large naval installation and then if no complete result was derived from the effect of that... we ought to designate a number of large manufacturing areas from which the people would be warned to leave--telling the Japanese that we intend to destroy such centers....�

Why was the bomb used? The conventional view, of course, is that it was to save as many lives as possible. But if this is so, several historians now ask, why did President Truman and his chief adviser Secretary of State James Byrnes make it harder for Japan to surrender? Specifically, why did they remove assurances for the Japanese emperor from the July 1945 Potsdam Proclamation warning Japan to surrender? The assurances were strongly recommended by U.S. and British military leaders, and removing them, they knew, would make it all but impossible for Japan to end the war.

A traditional theory has been that the President feared political criticism if he provided assurances to the emperor. But, other historians note, leading Republicans were for�not against�clarifying the terms to achieve a surrender, and were calling for this publicly. Moreover, American leaders always knew the emperor would be needed to order a surrender�and, of course, in the end they did agree to an understanding which allowed such assurances: Japan still has an emperor.

Hasegawa believes the assurances were taken out of the Potsdam Proclamation precisely because American leaders wanted to have the warning rejected so as to justify the bombing�and, further, that they saw the bomb as a way to end the war before Russia could join the fighting. There is other evidence suggesting that policy makers, especially Secretary of State Byrnes, wanted to use the bomb to �make the Russians more manageable in Europe�--as he told one scientist.

(Full disclosure: My own view�as one of the historians involved in the debate--is that the bombings were unnecessary and that American policy makers were advised at the time that a combination of assurances for the emperor plus the forthcoming Russian declaration of war would likely bring about surrender in the three months available before the invasion could begin. I also believe the evidence is strong, but not conclusive, that American leaders saw the bomb above all as a way to impress the Russians and also as a way to end the war before the Red Army got very far into Manchuria.)

Why are historians still struggling over these issues? One reason is that few nations find it easy to come to terms with questionable actions in their past. Nor is this a simple left-right debate. In recent years liberals have been critical of the decision. At the time The Nation magazine defended the bombing while many conservative publications criticized it�including Human Events, and later, the National Review. �The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul," former President Herbert Hoover wrote to a friend.

One of the most important reasons the issues don�t seem to get resolved has to do with the historical record. The fact is most discussions concerning the decision to use the atomic bomb were simply not recorded. Not only were such matters handled in an extremely secretive manner, they were largely handled outside the normal chain of command. There is also evidence of the manipulation of some documents and of missing documents in certain cases�and in some instances, evidence that documents were destroyed.

Perhaps one day we will know more and the long debate over Hiroshima will come to an end. We are unlikely, I think, to discover new official sources. However, a new generation of scholars may well be able to ferret out diaries, letters, or additional personal papers in the attics or basements of descendants of some of the men involved. An even more interesting possibility is that the President�s daughter Margaret will one day donate additional papers to the Truman Library. (In her own writing Margaret reports details which seem clearly to be based on documentary sources. However, she has so far refused to respond to inquiries from historians asking for access to these.) A third possibility is that if, as some believe, the Soviets bugged the Truman villa near Potsdam, Germany (or the villas of other American or British officials who were there for the July 1945 meetings just before the bombings), there may be tapes or transcriptions of some key conversations in NKVD or other files in the Russian archives.
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Last edited by SunWuKong on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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