Maths problem involving Joe Blow Airline

[matra550magic]

Hi guys,

I am quiet new on this forum and I already made few new friends . I am back after 10 days at home taking care of kids, wife, friends, party, etc... (by the way, happy new year to all of you, mainly the retirees who don't have the intention to come back, I love you guys ) . I need your help to solve this problem. I've heard about smart guys around here who probably gonna be able to help me ....

" Joe Blow Airline has 2 pilots. Captain (A) (who's about to turn 60) and First Officer (B) (who's about to turn 55). Outside Joe Blow Airline is candidate (C) (who's about to turn 50 and waiting for a job at Joe Blow Airline)".

Problem number 1 :

Captain (A) reach 60 and decide to take his pension. First Officer (B) become the new Captain and candidate (C) join Joe Blow Airline has a First Officer. Captain (A) decide to invite everybody in a local bar around the airport.

Question :

Who's more happy in this situation :

A) Captain (A) because he's finally retired and he's gonna be able to spend time with his family and enjoy his pension.
B) First Officer (B) because he's finally a Captain at Joe Blow Airline and he's gonna be able to make his 5 best years and retire at 60.
C) Candidate (C) because he's finally flying for Joe Blow AIrline after years of waiting.
D) The company because the new captain and the new First Officer represent a cost saving.
E) All of the above.

I know, it's a complicated problem so take your time before giving an answer

Problem number 2 :

Captain (A) reach 60 but doesn't want to leave and decide to stay until he's 65. Now, first Officer (B) has 2 options. Retire at 60 knowing that he'll never be a Captain at Joe Blow Airline thus never be able to have his 5 best years or wait that Captain (A) finally leaves to take his seat and fly until he's 65. Candidate (C) outside the company watch that and think : "What the @#$! ???!!!!" . As you can see in this problem, there is an unknown factor or (X) factor wich is directly connected to First Officer (B) and Candidate (C). This (X) factor is Captain (A) decision to leave or to stay !
Now the question...

Whos' more happy in this situation :

A) Captain (A).
B) First Officer (B).
C) Candidate (C).
D) The company.
E) NONE OF THE ABOVE EXCEPT CAPTAIN (A).

Once again, take your time. It's not a race and remember : "solve one problem a day keeps the Alzheimer's away !".

On my next topic, we'll try to understand why our insurance company pays for Viagra but doesn't pay for contraceptive pills. Is there a good lawyer on this forum that can bring this case to the CHRT for sexual descrimination ? If I would be a woman, I would be chocked by such a behaviour gentlemen...

Happy new year again.

Matra550Magic

[Cat Driver]

Is this make believe company the only company in that country and therefore there is only one airplane flying in said country?

[Rockie]

Whatever happened to the good old days when they just sent old people out into the woods to die quietly and not cause such a fuss? (sigh)

[Cat Driver]

Yeh, now I am wondering if I am to old to go back to doing advanced flight training.

Would it be fair to the younger generation to have someone my age teaching them knowing some of them want us old guys out of aviation so they can move ahead having learned all there is for them to know?

I read so much about this PDM thing and how important it is, which leads me to wondering if I know anything about PDM?

[vic777]

D) The company because the new captain and the new First Officer represent a cost saving.

There is no cost savings to the company because they still pay for the man/woman in the seat, it doesn't matter if that person changes, the cost is the same. In fact, if someone retires the costs go up because in addition to paying the "seat costs", they now have additional training and pension costs.

Problem number 2 :
Whos' more happy in this situation :

Some people are naturally always quite happy, others seem to be always complaining. no matter how good they have it. Can a constant complainer ever be happy? Maybe not without professional help. If you don't have a sense of humour, you shouldn't have joined.

[Rockie]

C'mon .. What could an old guy like you possibly teach someone that a class 4 instructor couldn't?

[flyer 1492]

Captain A would be unhappy, flying to the good ole USofA he would be restricted from acting as Captain in Command since he is 60+ with a Co-pilot at 55+.

[morefun]

We get free Viagra.......?

[2R]

Once the HR hounds realize that hiring old people who cannot sleep will end any rostering fatique problems.Old people are scared to fall asleep as they know they may not wake up. the old joke "I want to die peacefully in my sleep not screaming like the passengers in his airplane"comes to mind.
They can put the old people in the front off the airplane to keep the seats warm while the auto pilot does all the work.Now that the door is sealed for security no need to let them out to wash,we could keep them "In their cage until they become unresponsive" as the pax are no longer allowed to visit the flight deck no need for uniforms either. Cheaper flight suits made from re-cycled hospital gowns could save the company hundreds of dollars.We would only need to let them out if the pax start to notice any of those old people smells eminating from behind the cockpit security door .Since most old people wear diapers anyway no need for bathroom breaks either so the door can stay closed throughout the whole flight ,decreasing any security risks associated with the bathroom breaks when one pilot leaves the front office.And why do some of those young pilots need help from those FA's when they go into the toilet anyways.

The age discrimination made sense in the sixties when almost every airplane had a non-normal event at least once a month .but in this day and age of automation ,only one pilot is REALLY required for safety .Ask any FO they are of the opinion that they are the only required crew.Then for legals reasons they could promote one of the senoir flight attentants to flight manager to satisfy the legal requirements under the ICAO Chicago for one senoir person to be legally responsible for the flight.
If i was running the show i would try to make all the planes SINGLE pilot airplane just like Ryan Air attempted and the pax can pay for toilet paper as well,as most of those on the cattle car type of carrier pax do not normally use toilet paper anyway

[Rockie]

Let's not forget the added cost savings in mail. If they stay in the FD until they die the company can just datalink everything to them. No need for simulators either because the chaos they cause will be far better than any LOFT scenario the youngsters can come up with.

Man, this just gets better and better!

[matra550magic]

Is this make believe company the only company in that country and therefore there is only one airplane flying in said country?

Of course not but it has to be easy... When you'll be able to solve this problem, we'll change Joe Blow Airline by Air Canada, instead of only 2 pilots it will be 3000, few RP positions, different size of airplanes, etc... and at the end, you put everything in a bag, you shake it and wait....

Matra550Magic

[matra550magic]

There is no cost savings to the company because they still pay for the man/woman in the seat, it doesn't matter if that person changes, the cost is the same. In fact, if someone retires the costs go up because in addition to paying the "seat costs", they now have additional training and pension costs.

And everybody knows on this forum that a brand new hire on a flat pay, in the position group makes as much money than a 25 years seniority dude. If you manage your money the same way you solve maths problem, no wonder you have to fly over 60 !

Matra550Magic

[Rockie]

After 12 years nobody gets any more raises at Air Canada as long as they sit in the same seat. If you replace one 777/330/767/320 driver with another one, you haven't save a thing. You simply replace one guy making X amount of dollars with another guy making the same amount of money, and in the process trained several people with its accompanying costs. In the very lowest tier where the money differential is very small you might save a little bit, but only a little and that's questionable as well.

Maybe it's you who should take a remedial math course?

[matra550magic]

After 12 years nobody gets any more raises at Air Canada as long as they sit in the same seat. If you replace one 777/330/767/320 driver with another one, you haven't save a thing. You simply replace one guy making X amount of dollars with another guy making the same amount of money, and in the process trained several people with its accompanying costs. In the very lowest tier where the money differential is very small you might save a little bit, but only a little and that's questionable as well.

Maybe it's you who should take a remedial math course?

Of course Einstein ! That's why the Union AND the company are fighting that ! You can save so much money to this company by staying longer. Wouahhhhh.... . And of course replacing a guy making 160000 $ a year by one making 37500 $ doesn't save money at all. I think we all need to take a remedial math course. . Fresh blood, that's all this company needs

See you...

[Rockie]

You don't replace the $160k guy with a $37k guy genius, you replace him with another $160k guy. Except now you have to train three or four other people as well. You get paid for years of service and the seat you occupy. Most pilots have 12 years or more service meaning the only increase in their salary comes from changing seats. For each guy who changes seats there is a significant cost. If the company is paying 10 million a year for 777 captains, they can kick as many out the door as they want and they will still be paying 10 million a year in 777 captain salaries, only now you have to add training costs on top of that.

Do you understand that concept smart guy?

[matra550magic]

You don't replace the $160k guy with a $37k guy genius, you replace him with another $160k guy. Except now you have to train three or four other people as well. You get paid for years of service and the seat you occupy. Most pilots have 12 years or more service meaning the only increase in their salary comes from changing seats. For each guy who changes seats there is a significant cost. If the company is paying 10 million a year for 777 captains, they can kick as many out the door as they want and they will still be paying 10 million a year in 777 captain salaries, only now you have to add training costs on top of that.

Do you understand that concept smart guy?

Your statement is true if you just consider the wide body fleet (that's probably what you do anyway because you probably don't care about the narrow body fleet ) because as you know, that's where the more seniors guys sit. BUT every move on the wide body create a move on the narrow body (you know, the cheap labor ), so every senior guy leaving the company create a cheap job. In my example, if F/O (B) become a captain, there will be probably no cost saving (because this guy has probably more than 12 years in the company) but this F/O will be replace maybe by a 9 years 320 F/O wich will be replace by a 5 years EMJ F/O wich will be replace by a new hire. As you can see, you don't save cost at the top but at the bottom, AS USUAL !

Do you understand that concept, smart guy ?

[yycflyguy]

After 12 years nobody gets any more raises at Air Canada as long as they sit in the same seat.

You're not complaining though, right?

How 'bout a solution. We can go to a 14 year scale and we keep the retirement age at 60!

[Rockie]

Matra

If we were on a status pay system what you say would be true. But we're not. We are on a formula pay system, or equipment pay if you prefer. That means unless the company changes the type or number of a particular type of equipment their salary costs remain pretty much the same. The only thing that changes is training costs as pilots move from one piece of equipment to another. The very reason you want pilots to be gone at 60 is so you can move into a higher paying seat. Get it? That guy's gone so you can have his pay.

In a constantly moving pilot group there are still always X number of flat pay, X number of year 3, X number of year 4 and so on. If the equipment doesn't change, neither do the salary costs. The training costs though are huge. If you reduce movement somewhat there is a small increase in salary up to year 12 and then they stay the same. There is also a reduction in training costs to compensate. By far the biggest change in salary occurs between airplanes (that's why you want people out right?), so unless the equipment changes there isn't a big change in salary costs.

C'mon, this is simple stuff.

[Old fella]

Eat healthy, exercise daily, fly for AC at 60+ - die anyway!!!!

[MackTheKnife]

Matra

If we were on a status pay system what you say would be true. But we're not. We are on a formula pay system, or equipment pay if you prefer. That means unless the company changes the type or number of a particular type of equipment their salary costs remain pretty much the same. The only thing that changes is training costs as pilots move from one piece of equipment to another. The very reason you want pilots to be gone at 60 is so you can move into a higher paying seat. Get it? That guy's gone so you can have his pay.

In a constantly moving pilot group there are still always X number of flat pay, X number of year 3, X number of year 4 and so on. If the equipment doesn't change, neither do the salary costs. The training costs though are huge. If you reduce movement somewhat there is a small increase in salary up to year 12 and then they stay the same. There is also a reduction in training costs to compensate. By far the biggest change in salary occurs between airplanes (that's why you want people out right?), so unless the equipment changes there isn't a big change in salary costs.

C'mon, this is simple stuff.

Rockie,

Save your breath. Mantra isn't absorbing a thing you are trying to explain to him.

From what I have read of his postings he is here for one purpose and one purpose only - to stir up as much shit as he can with his total lack of understanding on the way thngs work and has no intention at all of trying to learn. I might even go as far to say he doesn't even work for AC.

Move on. He isn't worth the effort.

MTK

[777longhaul]

MTK

Ditto on the other poster, and a few others, really doubt they are employed, as ac pilots, if they are even airline pilots at all.

[look on your back]

hheyyy Matra congrats for your aviation knowledged

But a chinese proverbe say :
Flying TOO OLD... Flying TOO HIGH... Flying TOO TIRED.... makes both of your hands shaking so much that the next morning you can be on CNN, global mail, LCN or whatever the news channel.....

== SPILLING COFFEE all over your central pedestral !!! hhaaaaaa


100% of hitting target goal Matra

[matra550magic]

MTK

Ditto on the other poster, and a few others, really doubt they are employed, as ac pilots, if they are even airline pilots at all.

What would be the difference being or not an AC pilot ? The facts would be same. But for sure, with the nickname you have, there is no doubt that you fly a big plane "777longhaul" . I thought about the last posts during my days off at home and I think you're right guys. I think you guys have the big picture (you know, the one that everybody is talking about in the company, the one that you're supposed to see during your command course ). I think you finally see that big picture the day you retire . But stop joking here. Rockie was right. To save money, the company must :

- Cancel all the 787 orders. That way, they won't have to spend money to buy those plane AND to train all the guys on this new equipment (even if we save money on the LONG term but who cares about the long term ? Our own future is so short . I just gonna think about myself and right now ).
- Recall ALL the guys over 60 because according to you they gonna save money to the company and because they saw the big picture (you remember, when they retired !).
- Recall all the old DC9 because they were paid for a long time and I don't see the point to buy new planes when you think about all the costs related to that

And finally, put the old guys on the old planes and the cost saving will be ENORMOUSSSSSSSSSS

Have fun guys and don't spend to much time on this forum. It's not good for your blood pressure

Matra550Magic

[Rockie]

But stop joking here. Rockie was right. To save money, the company must :

- Cancel all the 787 orders. That way, they won't have to spend money to buy those plane AND to train all the guys on this new equipment (even if we save money on the LONG term but who cares about the long term ? Our own future is so short . I just gonna think about myself and right now ).
- Recall ALL the guys over 60 because according to you they gonna save money to the company and because they saw the big picture (you remember, when they retired !).
- Recall all the old DC9 because they were paid for a long time and I don't see the point to buy new planes when you think about all the costs related to that

And finally, put the old guys on the old planes and the cost saving will be ENORMOUSSSSSSSSSS

You know, I must be getting old. I don't remember saying any of that.

[matra550magic]

hheyyy Matra congrats for your aviation knowledged

But a chinese proverbe say :
Flying TOO OLD... Flying TOO HIGH... Flying TOO TIRED.... makes both of your hands shaking so much that the next morning you can be on CNN, global mail, LCN or whatever the news channel.....

== SPILLING COFFEE all over your central pedestral !!! hhaaaaaa


100% of hitting target goal Matra

Thank you buddy ! It's so nice to finally feel the heat of love on this forum

Take care

Matra550Magic