What have you done to improve flight training?

[Cat Driver]

I see this question asked here on this forum.

Well my main concern is improving the wages paid to flight instructors.

No where in my experience have I ever seen anyone who will continue to teach to a high level and maintain their enthusiasm for teaching, while being paid a wage that subjects them to the poverty level in society.

[MultiSister]

The best instructors Ive had, are the ones who are there to have fun. And the ones who are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed.

Ive had instructors who dont give a S#!% and it was really hard it to actually learn or perform well. If its quite in the cockpit, you know somethings wrong. If there is always laughter, and good times learning.. I found I learn more.

[Cat Driver]

The best instructors Ive had, are the ones who are there to have fun. And the ones who are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed.

How many older retired pilots do you know who are interested in getting or renewing a Canadian flight instructors rating?

[iflyforpie]

What have I done?

I quit instructing because I couldn't afford to be an instructor, and I didn't feel at 300 hours that I was in a position to be teaching anybody how to fly.

I really wish I had figured that out before spending all that money on an instructor's rating. Anybody want to buy a very expired Class 4 with no recommends?

[Hedley]

The best instructors ... are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed

Interesting observation. These instructors clearly aren't in it for the money. To them, aviation is a form of volunteer social work, like working at a food kitchen in a homeless shelter.

Is that really a sustainable plan? "I hope to get a handout from a benevolent veteran?"

I quit instructing because I couldn't afford to be an instructor

Anyone see a pattern here? Why do people expect to get quality flight instruction for less than what it's worth? Or simply for free?

You want quality flight instruction? Easy. Insist on a class one flight instructor. I guarantee that you will get your licence (or rating) in fewer hours, so even if he charges you more, it will end up costing less.

If you wanted to hire an electrician, a plumber, a carpenter, a lawyer or a doctor, do you want an experienced professional, or someone that just got qualified last week and is still learning how to do his job?

[GoinNowhereFast]

Lets not bash on fresh class 4 instructors too much. I've flown with some class 4s that were excellent. I've also flown with a class 2 that would have trouble teaching a monkey to eat a banana.

The problem is those who get their instructor rating primarily to build time and don't care about their students.

[Strega]

Why is it instructor time is more "valuable" than co pilot time?

[Hedley]

Lets not bash on fresh class 4 instructors too much

I'm not bashing inexperienced instructors.

How about an honest answer. You're going to have your eyes cut - LASIK, PRK, whatever. Who do you want to have do it: a seasoned professional, with 10,000 operations in the last 10 years, or a kid who just finished school and you're going to be his first?

You're up on a murder charge. Who do you want as a lawyer: the top criminal attorney in the country, or some kid that wrote the bar last week? Which one do you think would have the knowledge and the skill to provide the best defense?

The purpose of flight instruction is NOT to provide 200 hr wonders with a convenient way to build hours. It is to teach people to fly. Let's try not to forget that. Given that the national hourly average to PPL is what, 80 hours? Perhaps my concerns are valid, unless you don't really care about the quality of flight instruction.

[Cat Driver]

I started this thread to point out what I think will improve flight instruction.

My opinion is backed up by having been an instructor since 1957 and also having owned a flight school from 1986 to 1991 operating both fixed and rotary wing machines. Having employed many instructors I believe I have some idea regarding the subject.

I am not suggesting there not be any low time flight instructors in the industry, nor am I suggesting there are not some good low time instructors.

So lets drop the class four subject and move on to the other instructors and examine what they get paid.

If Canada were to regulate schools like they do in the USA where one does not have to wade through a mountain of paper work and months of time not to mention cost to get a FTU OC an instructor could earn a reasonable living teaching flying by letting the market decide how many clients they get based on the quality of their teaching.

[FlaplessDork]

The best instructors Ive had, are the ones who are there to have fun. And the ones who are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed.

Not always true. The worst instructor that worked for me was an older, retired person.

[MichaelP]

If Canada were to regulate schools like they do in the USA...

If Transport Canada was to regulate schools in Ontario to the same level as they do here in BC it would make my job a whole lot easier at the moment.

[burninggoats]

Wages schmages. All I ask for is a computer that doesn't freeze when someone embeds a youtube video on avcanada. How am I supposed to make it through days like today otherwise?!


In all seriousness though, from the perspective of a relatively new instructor I think some companies, while not there yet, are going in the right direction. I've worked at 2 flight schools now for a total of ~5 years, one where I trained and worked on the ramp, and one where I've instructed.

Two main things that jump out at me are
-Instructors getting paid consistantly with the instructor rate. This means that if the rate goes up, so does the instructors wage. I've seen schools raise instructor wages $10/hr, and the instructor wage stayed the same.

-Instructors getting paid to do work while not flying. Why on earth some schools have ramp and dispatch when instructors are sitting around doing nothing and not getting paid I have no idea. I say this as the one who benefitted from working the ramp, and sometimes taking home double what the instructors did, with a $10/hr wage.

[YOWza]

If Canada were to regulate schools like they do in the USA

The American system (Part 61 in particular) is a good model for public students. If it were used in Canada, it would free up a lot of monetary resources that are wasted on paying for paperwork exercises. I can think of a dozen places off the top of my head in the States that maintain better operational control than many Canadian schools without all of the key people that have to be paid, and without wasting money on the toner and paper it requires to double and triple document everything.
As I see it, the money could be used on improving the fleet and paying instructors more for their work.

[Cat Driver]

Exactly.

TC could still pay the inspectors as long as they never came to work and stayed away from flight schools.

[MichaelP]

If there was no Transport Canada the situation with unethical flight schools in Canada would be even more serious than it already is.

The fact that there was a Maylan is a case in point... How many more Maylans would there be?

[Cat Driver]

If there was no Transport Canada the situation with unethical flight schools in Canada would be even more serious than it already is.

Yes, Michael you are correct we need a regulatory body to enforce the law.

So let me re word it.

Get rid of the need for a FTU OC as it is now structured and have TC oversee the quality of flight training and adherence to the rules and not micro manage as they now do.

[200hr Wonder]

Back to your question,

I have tried after getting 2000 hours and a few winters of operational line flying to come back and instruct part time but it seems that people are not interested in having me. Sure I am not there from dawn till dusk 7 days a week, however when I do show up I am there 100% for the student because I want to be there. I am sure there are students that could mesh with my schedule as well.

[Beefitarian]

Anyone see a pattern here? Why do people expect to get quality flight instruction for less than what it's worth? Or simply for free?

You want quality flight instruction? Easy. Insist on a class one flight instructor. I guarantee that you will get your licence (or rating) in fewer hours, so even if he charges you more, it will end up costing less.

If you wanted to hire an electrician, a plumber, a carpenter, a lawyer or a doctor, do you want an experienced professional, or someone that just got qualified last week and is still learning how to do his job?

People are plain and simply too cheap and not smart enough to spend a little more on quality. That's why Wal-Marx is the biggest store chain in the western (probably all of the) world and it's tougher everyday to find something that was not made in China. I don't know how most pick a Doctor or Lawyer but as far as Construction around here goes the lowest bid gets the job.

[Hedley]

People are plain and simply too cheap and not smart enough to spend a little more on quality. That's why Wal-Mart is the biggest ...

MichaelP here coined a term that I love, for it's insight: He refers to "Wal-Mart Flight Training" which is an obvious retail "race to the bottom". Hm. I should add that to the wiki!

Construction around here goes the lowest bid gets the job

A guy called Mike Holmes has made a career on that! All of the screwed-up houses he visits, the owners are all so hapless and uninformed - and out of dough!

It's hard to fix flight training in Canada. I don't really know how. I'm all ears.

All we can individually do, is offer quality flight training at a fair price, derived from a reasonable IRR. I might be fooling myself, but my experience has been that there are enough discerning customers that want (and can measure) quality, to keep a competent professional busy, esp if he has specialized "boutique" skills (IFR, tailwheel, aerobatic, float, ski, etc).

[Shiny Side Up]

I see this question asked here on this forum.

Well my main concern is improving the wages paid to flight instructors.

If anything, I will say that this is where my chief contribution to improving flight training lies. That's not to say the boys get paid like doctors, but they get a fair wage. If people are concentrating on just surviving, they don't make good employees, bottom line.

This has a lot of cascading effects, here are the two primary ones:

1) Employees stay longer. Inevitably flight instructors with the current set up move on, flight instructing for a long length of time tries one's patience, believe me I know - more on that later. Students/customers love consistency in the staff - it brings them back, return customers make the school money. Win/win. When employees do move on, its usually on positive and happy terms, they come back to visit, they reccomend the business. You can't buy that kind of advertising.

2) You attract good employees. When it comes time to replace people, you have some to pick from. Good employees keep you in business, bad employees will ruin you. We're past the point of potentially getting experienced instructors into the system, so you have to concentrate on getting the good people who can learn. Unfortunately FTU business is customer service business and that's a young person's job (no offence Cat).

Both of the above improve the quality of the training the student gets, they improve the experience the student gets.

Tangent topic:

You want quality flight instruction? Easy. Insist on a class one flight instructor. I guarantee that you will get your licence (or rating) in fewer hours, so even if he charges you more, it will end up costing less.

Not necessarily, this comes from the above. Once upon a time I was maybe the ideal ab initio instructor, sometime between when I was new enough to the business to carry the enthusiasm I did when I started, but had closer to the experience I do now. Personally I hate starting with new students anymore. I have a few remaining PPL students (all long term ones, and all in the 50+ category) whom I plan on finishing, past which I won't plan on taking on any new students in that regard, unless there happens to be any special cases which I might deem warrant my attention. The "new student" in the flight training world takes a lot of work and stress. I got people to sort that out, people with the enthusiasm for that activity I once had. My role with ab initio these days is supervision of those that do it, this takes a lot of time, and often I now play the role of big scary chief for the students (useful for doing stuff like mock flight tests for instance, to see how people perform under pressure, and of course the pre-solo check stuff). I can't reccomend myself to start training with.

Also remember that the fewer Class ones and twos on staff are also employed in an assortment of other training tasks, scheduling them can be more difficult - which conflicts with the ideal training schedule of going as often as possible.

[Hedley]

Personally I hate starting with new students anymore

A bit of insight for the non-instructors here: taking someone from zero to PPL is a huge undertaking for an instructor. There is so much to teach, and gosh, you hope you don't forget anything too important when he takes his familt flying.

Far more satisfying, from an instructor's standpoint, is to take a licenced pilot that hasn't flown recently and scrape off the rust with a refresher flight. Sort of one-night stand, as opposed to getting "married" to a PPL, above. Tailwheel and aerobatic training is similar - you are building on previous experience, with immediate results.

I will admit that I too avoid ab initio. One of my pet peeves is when I invest a considerable amount of time in someone, and then they quit flying. What a piss-off. I don't want to spend a chunk of my life on someone unless he is going to make a significant contribution to aviation. One of my eccentricities is that I refuse to teach ab initio on nosewheel. I'm not going to be part of the problem.

Other ratings that are huge undertakings for the instructor: class 4 instructor, and to a bit of a lesser extent, the instrument rating. Same considerations apply. A lot of new material to be mastered, and a big responsibility to do it right.

[Beefitarian]

A guy called Mike Holmes has made a career on that! All of the screwed-up houses he visits, the owners are all so hapless and uninformed - and out of dough!

That's what I'm saying. For every Mike Holmes kind of guy there's 8000 crappy ones that will do it for cheaper. How do they stay in business? Because people want to save $3.08 even if they heard the guy's terrible.
I'm not innocent, one of my first posts here was looking for a less expensive rental plane.

It's hard to fix flight training in Canada. I don't really know how. I'm all ears.

All we can individually do, is offer quality flight training at a fair price, derived from a reasonable IRR. I might be fooling myself, but my experience has been that there are enough discerning customers that want (and can measure) quality, to keep a competent professional busy, esp if he has specialized "boutique" skills (IFR, tailwheel, aerobatic, float, ski, etc).

I don't know what the solution is. You're right instructors are undervalued but it might not be fixable. Money's tight, I know from my brief time talking with you when you said I should go near winnepeg to play with a pitts because it was near me my first thought was, "You're only twice as far." having thought that I can't afford to do it or I might be a pain for you in person.

[MultiSister]

The best instructors ... are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed

Interesting observation. These instructors clearly aren't in it for the money. To them, aviation is a form of volunteer social work, like working at a food kitchen in a homeless shelter.

Well to them technically they probably already have a pension, and are already okay, they just do this in their spare time...

Quote:
The best instructors Ive had, are the ones who are there to have fun. And the ones who are older or retired and just teach because they want to see their students succeed.

How many older retired pilots do you know who are interested in getting or renewing a Canadian flight instructors rating

and i know quite a few of them. and honestly.. they are awesome.

[MultiSister]

Lets not bash on fresh class 4 instructors too much. I've flown with some class 4s that were excellent. I've also flown with a class 2 that would have trouble teaching a monkey to eat a banana.

I got my PPL with a class four instructor. I was his first student to ever get her licence in a C152 actually. Im still good friends with him and he's still teaching me today. He knows his suff thats for sure.

I ve actually begun teaching GS myself. And I have never realized how hard it is to explain something to other people. I give credit to those people who have many different ways of explaining things. Like those instructors who really stood out to me. Some of them were class 4 Instructors.

[Hedley]

A low-time class 4 that is a superb instructor is a rare exception, despite the time-building rhetoric here.

A low-time (eg 200 or 300 hour) pilot rarely has great stick & rudder skills, nor does he often have a good understanding of what he is doing - and why.

A low-time pilot rarely is a gifted teacher, unless he has previous teaching experience (unlikely with a 21 yr old). Teaching is not easy to do well, in all situations with all people, and flying can be pretty difficult for some people to master.

About 15 years ago, I remember I was CFI at a school. I had a class 4 instructor going 'round and 'round the circuit with a "problem" student, who just couldn't get the hang of landing. After giving both of them an honest chance, I had a class 2 instructor fly with the student, who went solo almost immediately afterwards.

The more experienced instructor recognized the student's problem, and knew how to help him fix it That comes from experience, which the class 4 simply didn't have. He only know ONE way to teach something, and might not have been able to observe and conclude what the specific problem was the student was struggling with.

a class 2 that would have trouble teaching a monkey to eat a banana

More time-building rhetoric. By definition a class 2 instructor has taught at least 10 people to flight test. You might personally dislike the guy, but don't confuse that with technical competence. You don't need to be lovey-dovey with your flight instructor. Or, even like the guy very much. But if he knows what he is doing, you can learn from him. You don't have to out for beers afterwards, and he doesn't have to continually stroke your ego, to be a "good instructor".

I have learned an awful lot from people that I personally detest. Very expensive lessons.

I find it enormously amusing to think that so many people hold the opinion that experience is irrelevant to skill in aviation. Hmmmmm. Checked the jobs ads lately? What do they ask for, again? Why would that be?